| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Thanks for taking the time to post Jeff. Dyna, why don't you also call up a lawyer and see what they say about liability for problems caused by mounting a 3rd party tire. Not just "will somebody win a suit against me" but "what are the chances this would end up costing me some money do deal with down the road". edited by reepicheep on July 29, 2004 | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
I dont buy the liability deal. Do they inspect the tires they mount with an Xray machine or some other method before they do mount them? Do they worry about liability from a possibly bad tire being installed on a bike at the factory & then they sell the bike? As Das mentioned, do they worry about the liability from selling someone a bike that they cant handle? Its an easy excuse for a cop out & doesnt excuse the explanation that "other shops sell inferior tires". | ||
| Josh_ |
"call up a lawyer" ..in NY Better yet, call 2. Tell the first you are a business owner concerned about the liability, tell the second you are a consumer hurt by a tire you think was defective and you'd like to sue the installer tho he didn't sell it to you. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Jeff, this is a simple question I asked before but you seem to have possibly missed, Do you as the owner have the policy posted where customers can see it easily? If you don't then might I suggest it so that in the future this type of occurance doesn't happen as easily in the future. | ||
| Dino |
I'd have to say I agree with the dealer. Why the hell would they assume you were bringing in a tire? 99% of their customers don't. Josh - If you're a dealer and you receive a call from a customer wanting to get a tire mounted, and you are assuming he's going to buy the tire from you, don't you ask what brand, model, size he wants so that you can check to see if you have one in stock? Kinda basic. If they didn't do that, which certainly would've tipped Oz off, then they must have understood that he was bringing the tire. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I thought all tires sold had to be DOT Approved!!! A Dunlop Tire sold by a Harley Dealer in my opinion is no better than a Dunlop tire sold by a Japanese Dealer or Tire Wholesaler!!! It seems to me that the retailer is sore over the fact that the tire was not purchased at his shop. Jeff did make specific reference that Oz should have purchased a tire with the gift card!!!! If you that concerned with liability issues I'd say lock the doors, shut down and hope for the best. | ||
| Josh_ |
No, since I'm a HD dealer and 95% of my customers ride HD and 98% of their bikes (remember 2/3rds of all statistics are made up) take the exact same tire - and anyway I stock tires to fit 99.99% of all the HDs that roll in... (I think the entire line up before the VRod and SportsterSport could be serviced with 6 tires) I've called dealers in my area (StLouis) and the greater Milwaukee area to ask about tires and got asked no questions - the service guy assuming I had an HD and would take a stock Dunlop. Even when I mentioned I had a Buell I would not get any questions. I'd always make sure to specify since I didn't want to guess if I got a 205 or 207. Other brands I've have to call parts and get it ordered first. (hmm, 7 tires don't forget the 21in? Springer) edited by josh_ on July 29, 2004 | ||
| Dasxb9s |
I have a few points/flaws in posting I have read! Since when is a Dunlap tire "AN AFTERMARKET" tire. Doesn't Dunlap supply the majority of all HD OEM tires??? SO YOU ARE SAYING A DUNLAP TIRE SOLD BY YOU IS DIFFERENT AND SAFER/BETTER THAN ONE PURCHASED ELSEWHERE??? ALSO... OZ:Hi, I really need a favor, can you mount and balance a tire if I bring it in tomorrow? Any english majors out there? What is the subject of that sentence...??? THE TIRE... not a motorcycle. How many out there only take a wheel to have a tire mounted and not the entire motorcycle? Prove the stats that 99% of their customers have the whole bike there for tire mounting. What does that have to do with oil changes? UNLESS... "I really need a favor, I have some oil and a filter, can you take care of this tomorrow if I bring it in?" Would he be saying it is the bike??? PLEASE!!!!! I THINK NOT!!! I WILL POST THIS AGAIN>>> I hate smoke and mirrors bullshi*. If you have a policy of only mounting what you sell... have the balls to say so! PLEASE... the quality of a Dunlap tire sold you IS THE SAME as one sold by another dealer. Here is a suggestion for the policy sign posted in your service department. NOTICE... WE ONLY MOUNT TIRES THAT WE SELL. IT IS OUR BUSINESS PRACTICE AND IT HAS TO DO WITH OUR CHOICE TO ONLY MOUNT WHAT WE SELL. MORE BULL!!! DasBuell edited by dasxb9s on July 29, 2004 | ||
| Dino |
Apparently HD riders are indeed a different breed. I've never yet replaced a tire with the exact same tire. And I wouldn't be happy if my dealer assumed that he would dictate what I was going to ride on. | ||
| Cj_xb |
The "customer" never told ANYBODY at my dealership that he was supplying AN AFTERMARKET tire. It should be the dealers job to ask the right questions, and/or supply enough information about your policy so customer can know what to expect !? And a simple "hey, I'm sorry I didn't fully understand what you were asking, it's my fault what can I do to make it up to you", might have you not in the position of having to defend yourself now ??!! That said with a smile, would do it for me, I wouldn't be angry over it ! It was also brought to my attention that the conversation that "Oz666" supposedly had with my technician was not repeated correctly on this board. But your posts/attitude and your friend Splinter's post/attitude are here in black and white and there's no misunderstanding those for any of us not familiar with your business !! I wouldn't go there, not because of what Oz said but because of your first post and of course ALL of Splinters post !! No matter what Oz said or did, you still had/have the opportunity to come across as a decent business if you so wanted, you guys made yourself look bad here ! It is my duty and my responsibility as the business owner to comply with these regulations. Once again, it isn't WHAT you did, but HOW you did it !! You can comply with regulations and still keep customers happy, others do it all the time !! you had and STILL have every opportunity to speak with me, the owner, personally and face-to-face Geezzz after reading your first post and splinter's, I wouldn't bother talking to you/owner, especially if I knew you were aware of these posts here and how they sound and have no issues with them !! Why would I as a Buell rider go to a dealer where you employ someone who puts in his profile he rides a 2003 XB12 when no such Buell exists as they were made in 2004 ?? If you know that little about them, I don't wanna go there !! And yes- I do care when my business and name are trashed ANYWHERE. But do you care that you and/or your employees let said customer leave that unhappy that customer would want to trash your business ?? Again I wasn't there but if Oz told someone, fine I'll post about this on Badweb and was told "go ahead, who cares", I'd be posting it too !! Obviously when employees say those things, the attitude pretty much comes from the top down. If said employee KNEW that the owner would NOT like someone repeating/posting negative comments the employee (well a semi intelligent one anyway) would say "hey, let me go tell the owner that and maybe he can do something to make you leave happier !! Did the employee know that maybe from top down no one would care that customer walked out of the store disgruntled ?? Just asking ?? Oh well, gotta work and stop posting on this thread !! Your second post is a little better, but there's still splinter's posts. I don't think he would have publicly posted like that if he KNEW that owner of the business he posted it from would fire his ••• for coming across publicly to potential customers that way !!??? Only one person's opinion though, nothing to worry about ! CJ  | ||
| Josh_ |
So how many people on here take the wheel in and not the whole bike? I don't. Not even the RS. Back when I had an HD I never even *heard* of someone who did. Now consider the typical HD owner who makes up most of their customers. But feel free to rip the dealership a new one since you think their stated policy is not in place for the reason's they provide. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
"Most" of the folks I know take the rim in & not the bike. CJ being an exception. | ||
| Mikej |
I won't even be taking the rims in once I get a tire changer set up at home. Getting difficult to find the tire I want at a shop with the knowledge to work on the bike for a fair or reasonable price. One local accessory shop will order and mount tires they don't stock if the wheel is off the bike. Several local dealerships will only mount what they sell, and some won't order beyond what they normally order. YMMV | ||
| Phillyblast |
I take the bike. Like I said, last time I had tires put on the bike they inspected it pretty thoroughly while it was in, saw it had a faulty rear brake light, and fixed it for me. I hadn't noticed it, since I can't see back there while I'm riding and hadn't checked my lights in a couple of weeks, and potentially could have gotten rear-ended on I-95 on the way home. Jeff, What if a customer requests say, an Avon tyre, or a Michelin? Can you order those as well? I'm just curious about the "balance issues" and wondered if it extended to using anything but the OEM brand of tire? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Josh, at the moment since my question hasn't been answered the stated policy is verbal. If the policy was written and posted in plain view of the customers, then the onus would have been on OZ. Having been a service writer for a few years and dealing with the lack of info from a customer, it is ON ME as the writer to make sure I know the situation when I pencil in a job. I make sure I as the writer can't have my boss chew me out for scheduling a 3 hour job in a 20 min timeslot simply becuase I didn't ask if the customer was getting the radiator flushed and not a new radiator and waterpump when all the customer said was "I need you to put new coolent in for me". | ||
| Josh_ |
>Apparently HD riders are indeed a different breed. I've never yet replaced a tire with the exact same tire. And I wouldn't be happy if my dealer assumed that he would dictate what I was going to ride on. Welcome to HD. I've talked to HD techs that have never mounted anything other than the stock Dunlop. Everytime I asked for Metzeler I always got "why" "that won't fit" and/or "We can't get one" "It won't be as good as Dunlop" | ||
| Josh_ |
Sheesh what the hell am I doing defending an HD shop from you. Yes go kill him yes they all suck yes all dealers are idiots I can't believe that since all this guys sees are Harley drones he can't look at me and know I'm a Buell god pretty soon Buell will go away and they can concentrate on chrome (anyone wanna guess AM HD's new take on Buell owners?) Screw that, my Yamaha gets here in 4 weeks and soon my only Buell will have just "EFB Designs" and my toolbox for support. english fixed just in case edited by josh_ on July 29, 2004 | ||
| Dino |
Josh- I've done both just within the last year. As an HD dealer, perhaps you can answer a question for me. On average, how many serious accidents are there on HD motorcycles per year caused by "a high balance displacement" of a tire? Another question (not of Josh, necessarily). This policy has only existed for a relatively short time. Did the problem not become apparent until the introduction of the counterbalanced engine?  | ||
| Mikej |
In some regions (Japan for one if my understanding is correct) a shop is only allowed to install the specific tire brand/size/model as specified by the vehicle manufacturer. So if Buell states an M2 needs the D205 or D220 and an S2 needs a D207 that's all they will install on those specific bikes. I believe there are options when tires become obsolete. An older Honda 450 I had used a tire that was the only one still carried by local Honda dealers from that era, even had one shop (Don&Roy's) tell me the tire wasn't available until I had them open up their tire catalog and showed it to them all by itself in it's own category. From tires to accessories many shops are going this way. Some H-D shops will only install factory options (Zipper's = no, Screaming Eagle = yes). Yet others will remove stock exhausts and slam on straight pipes and drag slicks if a customer requests it. Around my region there are all options if you're willing to pay the asking price for the services. In the case of Oz v. Jeff, I believe there is a lost customer and a shop owner further peeved at Buell owners. At least that's my take on it, I wonder if he'll come back with his perceptions of the overall Buell sales/service experience from a shop owner's perspective. Few shop owners openly frequent the site here, it would be interesting to get their candid perspective, attitude or not. Life goes on, tires wear out, we do what we gotta do to keep on riding.  http://www.lambiek.net/crumb__exhibition/index.htm | ||
| Glitch |
So how many people on here take the wheel in and not the whole bike?  | ||
| Dino |
Whoops, sorry Josh, I took your "No, since I'm a HD dealer..." literally. Didn't mean to lump an innocent Badwebber in with those ax murderers.  | ||
| Bomber |
wheel -- that way, with most of the dealers around here, they'll do it while I wait if I bring the bike, appointments are necessary easy for me to do, and ups my convenience quotiant considerable | ||
| Dasxb9s |
Let me say this about that... what it comes down to is listening and communicating... AND not making assumptions. AND owning up to policies and the true reasons for those policies. Example... OZ: Hi, I really need a favor, can you mount and balance a tire if I bring it in tomorrow? Basic English... the subject of the sentence is the tire. If that was said... then the employee did not listen to what was said. He heard what he thought was said or what he usually hears. Listening is a skill!!! In customer service, listening is very important. Example... I once bought a van. It did not have a luggage rack. I wanted a luggage rack. I wanted the exact luggage rack that came from the factory. I said those exact words, I pointed at a luggage rack on a van next to the one I wanted, and said I wanted one exactly like that. I said I would pay for the luggage rack and whatever time it took to install the luggage rack. I said I wanted it done so that the only people who would know the luggage rack did not come from the factory was the salesman, the installer, and me. I did everything but make the salesman touch the luggage rack I wanted, because I wanted there to be no mistake or mis-communication. I was told the luggage rack was not in stock and it would have to be ordered. I had no problem with that, or whatever wait was necessary, and told them so! The next day I was called and they said my van was ready to pickup including that the luggage rack was installed. When I arrived it had an aftermarket luggage rack on it... to say I was not happy is an understatement. I spoke... the salesman was never listening! I almost canceled the purchase. The owner put in a nice stereo and alarm system at his own suggestion at no charge to make the problem acceptable. I'd rather have what I had asked for... but a compromise acceptable to both of us was found. The owner knew how to listen, how to communicate, and how to fix a customers problem without smoke and mirrors excuses! Back to this issue!!! Should American HD have the policy of ONLY installing what they sell... be it a mirror, a piece of chrome, or a tire, there is not an issue! If they work their profit by means of markup on the items sold and the labor to install said products, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT!!! They are in business to turn a profit. But if they said they did not install "aftermarket" chrome because it is poor quality and a liability issue (example brake and clutch levers, not a mirror), I'd still day bullsh*t. If you don't want to and won't install items not sold by you... JUST SAY SO!!! Leave the double talk out of it. Clear communication is the point!!! The big crutch now days seems to be the "liability" "card". I work in a courthouse and I am not stupid about law suits. Everyone seems to want to sue over anything for quick money and a buy off settlement. Totally wrong. If you are stupid enough to put boiling hot coffee in you lap and drive off... and you scald yourself... then sue your parents for having a stupid kid! Not the place that sold you the coffee and didn't have a "it's hot" warning label on the lid/cup! It's called accepting responsibility for your actions. If your actions are you only install what YOU sell... accept the responsibility of choosing that business practice, and own up to that legitimate business practice. If you are worried about liability enough to have a sign in your service department that says something to the effect of customers are not allowed in the shop due to insurance or liability restrictions... then care enough about your customers to clearly let them know you do not install items not sold by you. Both are examples of good and necessary communication!!! If you will only install what you sell... I think most people would not be making issues if you just bold faced said you do not, because that is your business practice. It is your business and you can run it the way you see fit. YOU MAY NOT BE SEEING THE UNDERLYING ISSUE... COMMUNICATION SKILLS, a big part in customer service!!!! DasBuell | ||
| Bluelightning |
So how many people on here take the wheel in and not the whole bike? Well, gee since 2 of the Buell dealers in my area DON'T have the proper equipment to remove the wheels from my bike, I have to take it off the bike first. Plus, the last time I changed tires was when I bought the bike (it was used). The dealer gave me a new set of tires, but said they couldn't change them for me, told me to go to the 3rd dealer in the area and have them put them on, which they did gladly as long as I still had the sticker that comes on all NEW tires from the manufacturer. If OZ still has the sticker from Dunlop, I don't see where there would be a "quality" issue with the tire as most HD's run on, gee lets see, Dunlop's maybe? Quality issue or crap issue????} | ||
| Blake |
Unless I change the tires myself, I take the wheel to a shop. My local non-Buell HD dealership will mount and balance my Buell tires for $18. They don't sell tires for Buells. For HD tires though, they charge an additional fee if you don't purchase the tire from them. Makes no sense to me, especially when you consider the high price they charge for their tires. I mean what does it take to change a tire and balance the wheel... about 10 minutes max. At $20 that amounts to about $120/hr. Nope, sure wouldn't want that kind of business.  | ||
| Hootowl |
The shops here charge 30 minutes at $60 an hour if you bring the wheel only and one hour if they have to take the wheel off. I did end up buying a tire from one of them once, but they still charged me for 1 hour of labor, so there's no price break for purchasing the tire from them. I'm going to mount my own tires from now on. | ||
| Cj_xb |
But feel free to rip the dealership a new one since you think their stated policy is not in place for the reason's they provide. Just suggesting like others that there was a communication issue involved, schmoozing is an art, but a necessary one to be successful. Not saying they aren't successful, but hey if they had better people skills IMAGINE how good their dealership could be !! "Most" of the folks I know take the rim in & not the bike. CJ being an exception. Cause I don't know how to get it off the bike !!  My ex would have taken the rim in (even mine), not the bike !! Like Bomber says, much quicker and easier that way !! CJ | ||
| Reepicheep |
Remember, that basically liability == money. Charge $40 for half an hour shop time to mount a tire that was not purchased from the shop. Take out overhead, and I bet the shop is lucky to make $10 on the whole deal. Charge $40 for a half hour shop time to mount a tire that was purchased from the shop for $150. The shop probably clears $70 in profits. An insurance company would not need to charge much extra to make it not worth the dealers time and trouble for them to mount other tires. And think about it this way, which is an easier way to solve the problem where the dealer is not really making squat for profit anyway? Just make a policy of "we only mount tires that were bought from us", or ... "We will mount your tires if they are new. Well, newish. Without patches. Well, with internal patches only, if they are not on the sidewall. Well, that and they don't have any evidence a cord was cut. And oh yeah, the tire has to be the right size for the bike. Well, Dunlops don't, the 170's and 180's both fit fine on everything but the PM wheels on the S2, so in those cases, we will do those. But the Michilin 180's rub on the XB's, so those have to be 170's. Unless you already removed the belt guards. And if we mount them, and you have a problem, we won't help you out, which is REALLY gonna •••• you off, even though we might have screwed something up, because we never really know if it was something weird about your tire (which should be the problem of the person who sold you the tire) or something we did." It's easier to just say "We don't mount tires we didn't sell for liability reasons". The liability is that it's liable to be a pain in the •••. They don't owe anyone a detailed explanation of their business model. They do have an obligation to clearly communicate their rules however, and to make it right when they don't. Granted, the perception of the customer was that the dealer handled it poorly, and the perception of the dealer was that the customer handled it poorly. If I need my tire mounted, I go to a tire place, do it myself, or have the company I bought it fromm mount it. (that being said, last time I had a harley dealer mount a tire for me that I bought from them, they bent my rotor and installed two tires in a row with long box cutter slashes down the tread, not to mention mounting the wrong model). | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
But what it also really boils down to is the question I keep asking, IS THIS POLICY IN WRITING WHERE THE CUSTOMER CAN SEE IT!? By being told you have a policy in place based on the liability of product quality, yet you can't be bothered to post such a policy where customers can be forewarned, you as a shop owner are wasting my time as a customer. If I walk into a shop and see it written out "Due to liability concerns we are unable to mount tires not purchased from us" I will do one of two things, buy a tire from you to be mounted and try to take back the one I purchased elsewhere, or if your price is that much different, I will walk back out. In the second case, if your price is that much different I wouldn't buy it from you anyways. But it saves me from coming back only to be told nope no way, and getting upset and feeling that you just don't care about my business. | ||
| Cj_xb |
They do have an obligation to clearly communicate their rules however, and to make it right when they don't. And if this simple little thing had been done, this entire thread would not exist !! CJ  |
