| Author | Message | ||
     Aaron |
Hypothetically speaking, of course ... Suppose you own a small business. A customer calls up demanding a $3000 refund. The story is that he paid $3500 about a year ago for services to be performed. He only received about $500 worth of services. He has no need for the rest. There is no record of this transaction at all. No receipt was generated and the payment was apparently made in cash. The person who received the money no longer works for you. You confront him and he admits to taking and pocketing the money, claims to have performed the work, and says he sees nothing wrong with what he did. Apparently it was a secret back-door deal that one side feels like he got screwed on. And now the customer wants to hold you responsible. What would you do? | ||
| Jssport |
Ask for a receipt | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Take the ex employee to court since he stole from you & admitted it. | ||
| Richieg150 |
Tell the customer to get the money from WHOMEVER did the work!Your not responsible for work that YOU didnt perform or work that has no RECEIPTS or DOCUMENTATION!If you honor this deal,whats to keep a dozen others from making claims such as this? | ||
| 420at145mph |
take the ex employee out to the woods n start shooting him with a nail gun till he promises a refund | ||
| Bads1 |
Aaron I do own a small business and manage another for a family member.I'd have to say see what develops out of it.If that individual decides to take it to court,which he may,but he has no documents of proof of services rendered then he/she has no leg to stand on but you might want to consult with your attorney if he does and make sure your attorney supena your ex-employee to court to settle the matter.I really don't think you have to much to worry about.Hope this helps??? | ||
| Court |
>>>What would you do? Engineers.....sheeeeesh, you guys know anything? Here's the lowdown and I'll let the Juris Doctori amongst us fill in the gaps and correct the procedural crap. There was no commercial transation. If there had been, there would be a record. Have you ever, I'm digging here for convention and standard practice in the industry, performed a service, sold a part or ported a head, without producing any paper? I'm doubtin' it red! I'm not certain that privity is the word I'm looking for but short of digging out some books let me say this...I think the concept is "ex parte" transaction or some crud. The transaction was NOT between you, your firm or any authorized agent (UNLESS, you EXPRESSLY (put it in writing or an employee manual or IMPLICITY (did it, saw it regularly and failed to stop it) authorized it. This is what is known in English Common Law as the Dual Sphinter Habitat Venue Doctrine. That's where two stupid ### make a stupid deal, both likely lying to the other with regard to their intentions and authority, and they committ the act under your roof or neon sign. Here's where it get's good legal fans....follow close and close that book on the UCC; Court's flying the plane in from here sans autopilot....you are responsible for a certain, very certain, percentage of the transaction. That % is ZERO. In the world of "greatest theif theories", two idiots pulled mental guns on each other. Both, in retrospect, had no ammo. One just got the other wet (i.e. soaked him) COMMON CURE: Give Idiot #1 (payor) the telephone number of Idiot #2 (payee) and blow them a big fat kiss. If the kids can't go to the back of the playground, call the local District Attorney who will want to get a statement from Idiot #1 (Payor). Likely, the Payor (Idiot #1) is not a lone eagle....few idiots committ a single stupid act. Most are habitual, stealing this time to pay for last time. Look at the downside....Of all the rasty rough edged character traits you may have (hey, I'm the manager....it's my job) dishonesty never hit your radar screen. Anyone attempts to make an issue, allude or imply that Aaron Wilson did so much as even be in the same county as a dishonest act is instantly dismissed as full of it. "T'aint so. Or, to quote a sage ole' motolosipher....."That's an inaccurate statement". Get yourself out of this illegal tranaction instantly. You didn't create it, you don't own it and you have every right to politely reject the invite. Clear enough? Court | ||
| Bads1 |
Amen!!!! | ||
| Road_thing |
What Court said. Somebody made a bad deal with the wrong guy. TSMF. rt | ||
| Aaron |
Thanks, guys. Just needed a little confirmation that the hypothetical business owner was doing the hypothetical right thing. I agree, no business transaction. I think idiot #1 is trying to make it out to be a business transaction only because he can't collect from idiot #2, who took the money and left the state. If it was above board he would've got a receipt and/or paid with a traceable method. And yes, Court, you nailed it, this was just the tip of the iceberg. | ||
| Court |
>>>>And yes, Court, you nailed it, this was just the tip of the iceberg. To quote yet another of my idols...."follow the light"....in fact, add to that "do what's right". Business, I sense, for you is about to experience an upturn. Your confluence with Dackey has me looking at this bike that has not been ridden in 3 years and seeing $$$ signs where the cylinders are. Worst part is I am lusting at that black with polished fins stuff. I knew I'd rue the day you and Ron collaborated. You've work to do; push the berg to see and tend to what matters. Court (How do you get corn chips out of a keyboard?) | ||
| Daves |
Aaron, That sucks! To have an employee put you in that position. To betray you that way. I know this kind of thing(dishonest people)happens all the time but I'd like to think that motorcycle people,Buell people, would be above that. I guess not all the time huh? Makes me sad to think about it. Keep your chin up! Dave | ||
| Outrider |
If said internal perp was an employee, there is a bit of liability exposure for you. However, as you said this was an under-the-table deal, you need to be able to prove this in order to exonerate yourself from the transaction. Furthermore, if the perp was an independent contractor you are in a much better position. Then again if the perp was a documented partner in the business, you are more than a little bit pregnant. | ||
| Ezblast |
Court - Pug or vacuum - lol GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Josh_ |
How the hell can you not notice you only got 15% of what you paid for? Shot in the dark: #1 and #2 already spoke and #2 convinced #1 that going to the guy owning the building currently would be the one with the most money. >However, as you said this was an under-the-table deal, you need to be able to prove this in order to exonerate yourself from the transaction. Sounds like it will be pretty hard for anyone to prove anything. Now if #1 has a letter on offical letterhead claiming he would be provided with $3500 worth of services that would be one thing. No proof, no receipt, no deal. 'course that doesn't stop #1 from bad mouthing the hypothetical business owner. | ||
| M2me |
Well, I've been watching People's Court for years so I'll represent myself as an expert! Some people have simplified the problem a little too much. If the person who did the work was an employee then yes, the employer can be held responsible. Where are the receipts for this work? If there are none then the employer has the advantage. What parts, shop supplies, equipment, etc. were used for this work? The employer's or the employee's? Why did the customer wait a year before raising the issue? What would I do? I would explain the situation to the customer, just as you have done here, and then I would inform the customer that I would not be issuing a $3000 refund. After that, I might receive a summons to appear in court. I would be confident that I would prevail but I would consider speaking with an attorney. | ||
| Henrik |
For a change I actually agree with Donnie  - I like that nail gun idea. Now would you use air or Passlode? If air, how big a compressor  That said; legal business in the US has the oddest way of turning around and biting you. Personally I think Court and others are correct, that you politely put the two a..holes in touch with each other and let them slug it out. I can however see lawyers and the court get bent out of shape on this and drag you into it. Get an attorney to look at it, or better yet, file a criminal charge against said employee and get his ••• thrown in jail for fraud/theft or whatever else is necessary to get it done. In old Danish law, you were punished for stealing lumber. If you chopped it down using an ax, you could be fined etc. Since the owner of the wood had the chance to hear you, the punishment was less. If however you burned the tree trunks over in the process of stealing, punishment was to be thrown off a rock onto sharpened wood spikes. Stealing silently was considered a cowardly deed and therefore punished harder. While the spikes may be a bit harsh in todays world, stealing is still cowardly. Henrik | ||
| Sardawg2dpd |
I too agree with Court. explain the situation to #2 and give him #1's phone number. Tell him he needs to be speaking with him because he is no longer your employee. In a civil court, "no papers, no receipts....Means No service" | ||
| Kcbill |
I am a small business owner and I wouldn't be refunding any money for out the back door behind my back transactions. It was obvious that it was intended to be kept quite. Has the doctor removed the knife from your back yet? The ex employee should be ashamed of them self and what ever legal action you have to take you should feel no remorse. They obviously don't. And they must not be to concerned about their reputation. That's hypothetically speaking. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Everyone here has a good, valid point. The issue that matters most here is that the employee performed, unbeknownst to you, an under the table deal and pocketed the money. 1) He stole from you (read;embezzlement). I would cheerfully suggest you remind him that you might pursue legal action if he doesn't live up to HIS responsibility to the customer, since he decided at random to moonlight out of your digs. 2) The customer was also betrayed by the employee. The employee misrepresented you by misleading the customer into thinking the work was performed under your watchful eye and expertise(and insurance policy, ad nauseum). Now we have this crook on more than one charge. Unfortunately, this guy probably doesn't have a pot to •••• in or a window to throw it out of. The lawyers are going to lean towards the deep(er) pockets of the small business owner; therefore my advice is simple...Preemptive Strike. Haul him (the employee into court (no, not Court!) and subpoena the customer as a witness to your lawsuit...UNLESS he wants to settle this like a man on his own. After all, he oughta be able to earn enough to pay up by opening his own head service. LOL!  | ||
| M1combat |
Well, I think it all comes down to whether or not this is the first that the theoretical business owner has heard of it. If he approved the deal as an under the table deal or had a policy of allowing under the table business to be performed by his employees after hours or what have you, then I think the burden of proof of that fact falls with Ahole #1 (Payor). In this case, I could see Ahole 1 and 2 getting together to make sure they can offer proof. If, on the other hand, there was no policy such as that it would seem to me that the deal was between ahole 1 and 2 all by themselves. There certainly wouldn't be any sort of paper or otherwise contract between ahole 1 and the theoretical business owner... In theory... I would wish luck to the business owner. | ||
| Ezblast |
Court - you get them crumbs off the keyboard, or do you need the loan of a pug? GT - JBOTDS! EZ | ||
| Pammy |
Unfortunately in business, there are all kinds of unscrupulous players, thieves, liars, manipulators and coat-tail riders. Get used to it. If it worries you, you need to get a lawyer on retainer. Otherwise, make it a lesson(however hard) learned...as we have. I thought using this board to air dirty laundry wasn't kosher.... | ||
| Curtyd |
Just a quick take as I run to criminal court, not civil. Civil atty are harder to deal with than my clients. If it was an "illegal" transaction designed to avoid taxes or some legal reporting requirement, you can't use the courts to enforce it. An employee is an agent when acting within the scope of his duties, exceed his duties you can argue you don't have the duty to cover it. It all is small claims court action, no lawyers, too little money for them anyhow to get involved, procedurally if you get served a Complaint, you need to add your ex-employee as a Party and get service on him. All of it is going to cost more time and money than it's worth. Need to file a Motion for Summary Judgment saying even if all his facts are true that it was still an illegal transaction (if it was) and/or outside the scope of his employment and basically he was an independent contractor at that point, you received no benefit from this bargain, essential for there to have been a contract, and ask that the case be dismissed against you from the outset. Just MHO. edited by curtyd on July 15, 2004 | ||
| Curtyd |
P.S. it does NOT take paper to have a contract, it only is evidence of a contract. And if there is a paper it usually, or should have, a clause saying it supercedes any prior oral terms. But you can have valid oral contracts. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
I was thinkin what curtyd was thinkin. If he was an employee of yours there is something there. but..if it wasn't above the board and it was a back door deal then to me it gets complicated. I don't know the law at all but...because it was with the business that you own and an employee did this it could, in our wacky goofed up world, even tho it wasn't above the board and there are no records of it, still come down on you. i would get witrh a lawyer and ask and also get all the details you can to save yourself from this.it sucks that it happened but it did. now you can only go forward and fix it. the ex employee needs to be held accountable also I do believe.however that can be done | ||
| Bjack |
Aaron, If the hypothetical business owner has a general commercial liability insurance policy covering the business, he should notify the insurance company of the claim. He should review his policy to determine how quickly he must notify the insurance company of customers claim. Is it when the claim first arises or when suit is filed? This will be dictated by the insurance policy. If there is coverage provided for employee dishonesty (which is often the case) then the insurance company would be obligated to defend any lawsuit and pay any resulting damages awarded (although that appears unlikely in this hypothetical case). If business owner is sued, business owner's attorney should file a third-party action against ex-employee for indemnity. That is, if business owner is found liable to customer, ex-employee may be found liable to business owner and business owner may recover his damages from ex-employee. First thing business owner should do is pull his insurance policy and determine if coverage exists and what notice provisions apply. | ||
| Aaron |
Thanks again, everyone. Lots to chew on for sure. I'm not concerned about the legal aspects. Sure seems like he'd have an uphill battle to me, first proving that a transaction with the business even took place (considering that I#2 would be criminally implicating himself if he supported that claim). Even if he could get past that, he'd have to prove that he didn't receive the services, which I#2 thus far says he did. And even if he could do that, where does it say that any unused credit will be refunded? You want service, bring the boat anchor in, I'll service it. Nah, hell with the legalities, doesn't concern me. What concerns me is whether or not I was doing the right thing. I got called every 4-letter word you can imagine, and even got threatened, when I politely declined his refund request. It was kind of eating at me, I always want to do the right thing, and just needed a little assurance that I hadn't totally lost my mind. Y'all helped a lot, thanks again. | ||
| Court |
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| Blake |
"However, as you said this was an under-the-table deal, you need to be able to prove this in order to exonerate yourself from the transaction." I think that is backwards. The onus is upon the plaintif to provide a preponderance of evidence indicating the guilt of the defendant. With no receipt or documentation, not even a cancelled check or credit card record, that will be near impossible to do. Pammy, I think it started out being theoretical dirty laundry, more asking advice. I know what you mean though. After hearing you list all the deadbeat scams you have had to endure, I can understand this looking trivial. But, I bet the first time you ran into similar trouble it didn't seem too minor of an issue. By the way, where is that guy burried anyway? ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif)  edited by blake on July 15, 2004 |
