| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=9540 50% import tarrifs on motorcycles?!!! WTF!!! How about we slap similar tarrifs on all the crap we're importing from China! Man that burns me. | ||
| Crusty |
You're going to love this. I got it from Superbikeplanet.com This just in from Harley-Davidson: Harley-Davidson Moves To Bolster China Presence Motorcycle Maker Announces Relationship with Chinese Company MILWAUKEE (June 8, 2004) - Harley-Davidson, Inc. today announced the signing of a memo of understanding with the Zongshen Motorcycle Group which could facilitate Harley-Davidson's entry into the Chinese motorcycle market and enhance Zongshen's capabilities in its home market. The announcement came during a visit by Harley-Davidson Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Jeffrey Bleustein and other company officials to Zongshen's headquarters in Chongqing, China. Both companies emphasized that the memo of understanding provides a framework for a potential relationship, but that many details are yet to be discussed before the two companies commit to a formal agreement. "Harley-Davidson's primary objective is to export our American-made motorcycles to China and to develop political and motorcycle industry alliances in anticipation of the market becoming more accessible," said Bleustein. "We do not believe it will be necessary for Harley-Davidson to manufacture its motorcycles in China in order to be able to sell them there," he said. Under the contemplated relationship, Harley-Davidson would work with Zongshen to gain a better understanding of the business practices, markets and distribution channels it will encounter in China. Zongshen is a recognized leader in the Chinese motorcycle industry. "We believe there is a lot we can learn from working with a company that has intimate market and industry knowledge in China," said Bleustein. Harley-Davidson would share certain technology of a non-competing nature, as well as marketing philosophies and practices with Zongshen, under the contemplated agreement. "In China, there are hundreds of motorcycle companies. However, Harley-Davidson is known around the world and throughout China for its outstanding reputation," said Zongshen Motorcycle Group Chairman Zuo Zongshen. "Harley-Davidson's status as an American-made motorcycle has a strong appeal here, and we believe an association with Harley-Davidson holds solid value for us in China," he said. While in China, Bleustein is also pressing Harley-Davidson's case for market entry with government officials. The day before his visit to Zongshen, Bleustein met in Beijing with China's Vice Minister of Commerce, Wei Jianguo, to urge the easing of official and unofficial trade barriers that limit Harley-Davidson's ability to sell its premium American-made motorcycles in China. Those barriers include a 50 percent import duty on motorcycles. The duty is scheduled to drop to 30 percent by January 2005, a level which is still onerous according to Harley-Davidson. In addition, local governments in China often limit the number of motorcycle licenses they will grant, and motorcycles are singled out for outright bans from operating in many of China's largest cities. ENDS | ||
| Jim_witt |
It's interesting that China has maintained their NTR/MFN status since 1980, even with their known human rights violations. And now their on the new UN Iraqi council as permanent members, what next? Import Regulations - China -JW: edited by jim_witt on June 09, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
I thought they just recently re-attained MFN status, during Clinton's watch. No? Yep... http://www.newamericancentury.org/chinajun2199.htm | ||
| Buellkowski |
China's MFN status is reviewed every year, unlike other countries who have MFN without annual review. Jim's right, China's had MFN years before Clinton. The real reason MFN keeps getting renewed? All those Chinese factories were built (and are maintained) with capital $$$ from Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and the USA. Turn off the flow of products and we & our friends lose our investments. | ||
| Blake |
http://www.fas.org/man/crs/980717CRSMFN.htm | ||
| M1combat |
The mightiest of Oaks fall from within... | ||
| Blake |
Huh? | ||
| Bomber |
I think the decision was based, at least in part, on hoping to get China more completely into the world market and society, rather than allow it to sit all by itself and glower until it starts nuking folks let right and center -- it's an attempt to, at least a little, control what could be the world's largest single economic unit not saying I agree with that decision (havn't for years and years) | ||
| M1combat |
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer... | ||
| Outrider |
Can't wait to see if China rips off HDI as they have everyone else. Heck, they already own Amerika so why not just hand over the keys to the White House. | ||
| Buellkowski |
Well, they don't own us, but we (and others) are certainly paying them to make cheap stuff for us. Like drugs, the supply will meet the demand. Just say no. | ||
| Blake |
I think our strategy against the Soviet Union worked extremely well. China is different, but appeasing them goes against my principles, ESPECIALLY if they don't afford OUR products similar provisions for free trade. I cringe when I see HDI negotiating with the communist Chinese. | ||
| Hootowl |
Bomber, You are correct sir. That's exactly why they have mfn. Its an olive branch. I think relations have improved because of it. | ||
| Bomber |
hoot . . . .shhhhhhhhh . . . .blake might hear ya ;-} | ||
| Kaudette |
Guess where all that chrome & clothing is made.... HD wants business and will do what it takes to get it in China. MFN status, well, China is maintaining HUGE levels of capital expenditure & consumption which business & banks are addicted to. We are well beyond the casual consumption phase at this point, ergo - China can do what they want and we will turn the other cheek. | ||
| M1combat |
"I think relations have improved because of it." Why do we need good relations with China? They're commies. We need a good nuke defense and to heck with the Chinese (NOT the people, but their communist government). "Why can't we all just get along??" Pffft... Because there is right and WRONG. Communism is not right. Do you remember Tieneman Square? I won't say "That wouldn't happen in the US" because of Wako and Ruby Ridge but both of those were small scale were preceded AND followed by plenty of mistakes. The Chinese are NOT our friends. Why do the Chinese use a Panda as their national animal? Panda's are MEAN. The only thing the Chinese have going for them is that they aren't an expansionist country. That can change. | ||
| Outrider |
The don't own us officially but they do via the imbalance of trade. Need a mental pic you can confirm easily. Just go to any US Port and watch the container ships come in low in the water and watch them go back virtually empty. Second, go try and buy property there. Heck, virtually any other country for that matter too. The Chinese, Japanese, German's and others own a lot of America. Everything from skyscrapers to the farmlands. Not trying to induce an argument nor stop the thread, but I have seen way to many US Corporations fold compliments of our governments inability to enforce their balance of trade quotas. Add to that, the lack of business ethics employed by the Chinese and it won't be long until we are nothing but a Chinese Colony as Hong Kong was to the British Empire. Then again, I don't know anything. I just managed the US operations for two Chinese manufacturing firms. Worst experience of my life and know of countless others that will tell you the same thing. | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
China was less than understanding of the American P-3 vs Chinese fighter collision incident where the P-3 crew was held through very tense negotiations for their release. Might I point out the mishap was the fighters fault! I know this is only one incident of many but it speaks volumes to what they really think of us... I don't trust them! AT ALL! As M1 has stated, the government, not the people... | ||
| Hootowl |
The thinking is that as their people are exposed to more wealth and information from the rest of the world, they will demand a more representative government. It is easier to keep people under your thumb if the only thing they have on their minds is where their next meal is going to come from. I'n not saying we have great relations with them, just better than we used to. I'm also not saying I agree with some of our trade practices. Go try to find something at walmart that's NOT made in China (except food). Or Target for that matter. If China stops making stuff for us, I'm sure we can pick up the slack. How hard can it be to tool up to make plastic Easter eggs and electric razors? It'll hurt for a little while, but I have every confidence in our manufacturing capabilities. | ||
| Bomber |
although it is difficult to go through life withpout purchasing goods from Red China, it's possible -- just a bit more expensive Blaming the Chinese entirely for the trade imbalance is a little loopy, I think . . . kinda like blaming Columbia for the cocaine probelm . . . .if we stopped buyin, they'd change their practices . . . . Insanity = doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. | ||
| Outrider |
Walmart, Target and their competitors are good examples, but don't forget Home Depot, Lowe's, Menard's, Ace Hardware, TruServ (TruValu) and the little else that is left of the Hardware/Home Center Industry. The Chinese lack of Business ethics has gone from one industry to the next with the same predictable results, yet very few in the US recognize it or will do anything about it. The Cycle is simple. It starts with a US Corporation outsourcing in China and ends up with China selling the retailer direct. The effect is the US Corporation, the distributors, and most of the dealers go out of business leaving tons of folks unemployed. The Second Cycle is when the Chinese establish a US Sales/Marketing office. First they hire the VP's from the companies the put out of business (Me and many of my peers). We get them established in the market with our network of customers and sales representatives. Then they dump us for cost reasons and hire one of our reps to continue what we started. Then they fire the rep and bring in someone from the home office. The interesting thing about these cycles is that the Chinese are good at manufacturing but not research and development. Historically, the responsibility for new product innovation was placed on the US Corporations as they were in tune with the consumers needs. So now who is doing the R&D? Believe it or not, the retailers and a few remaining US Corporations that focus on a large number new product releases two or more times a year. Then, it is back to the copy cycle all over again. I wish everyone would have the opportunity to view the millions of pages of new products that China has to offer. You would laugh your socks off at the stuff especially in the consumer electronics and housewares industry. The hand and power tools are hilarious as well only they got real good in that industry. Another fun time is to go to the Chinese Hardware Show. The major heartbreak is seeing all your best customers getting the same or better deal than you do and you have the burden of paying for all the development, marketing and sales costs. The next ironic thing is being dragged out of the aisle by the competing companies and even the sales representatives from the same company offering a better deal than the last. Trust me, they are desperate for business and would sell anyone direct if they could get a letter of credit. Concerning who's to blame...My opinion is that it starts with the competitive nature and greed of US Corporations, followed by Chinese business ethics and finally the US Governments lack of placing the appropriate tariffs to offset the imbalance of trade (read: Lost GNP and lost tax revenue). Another little known fact is that is that the title to the goods transfers to the US Importer, be it a US Manufacturer turned Marketing Corporation or a US Retailer, the second the product leaves the dock. Along with title is all liability for the product. In essence, the Chinese are not responsible for any defects in materials and workmanship that may cause a product liability suit in the US. Kind of like Forrest Gump and his box of chocolates theory. Only problem is there is poison in some of those chocolates. Care to hear the story about the Pasta Maker that mangled and amputated the fingers of quite a few US Women because the Chinese Manufacturer cost reduced the safety switch and paid off UL and the ISO reps in China? How about the Coffee Maker with the cost reduced handle that broke off and caused severe burns to a large number of consumers throughout Canada? Trust me, I can provide you with years of horror stories. Just let it be said that it is all a part of the Chinese business ethic especially when they are not liable for their decisions. At least UL, ISO and other similar organizations are more effective here in the US. Of interest, and I posted this a while back. While heading up the US Operations for a Chinese firm, I had to pay a tariff to get raw materials into China and pay a tariff to get the finished product out of China, but did pay a thing but the usual dock fees when the product arrived in the US. If you recall the post you may remember that I had to pay a British firm to smuggle the raw materials into China as it takes roughly six months to get Chinese Government approval to import anything. Oh yeah, did you know that the Chinese won't allow anything to be imported if they already make it or have a natural resource that is equivalent or better in their mind? Fair, eh? Think about it. Whose Government got all the money. Which country lost the jobs? Which county has a massive welfare and unemployment program? Which country has depleted its using up its citizen paid for retirement fund to support its welfare and unemployment programs? And lastly, who in that country is left with the tax burden to pay for all of it, not to mention what generation most likely isn't going to get a return on their forced Government run retirement program? Gee, do you think a Federal Sales Tax (Clinton's User Tax concept) just might be the answer? I don't think so. The consumer in this country is already absorbing the burden that they have no control over other than a boycott. Incidentally, I blame both Political Parties in this Country for letting the situation get out of hand. Neither is innocent, but both have the responsibility to remedy the situation. I go away now. Nothing more to contribute that wouldn't be repetitive at least in concept. Hope I have given you something to really think about. Myopia is what got us in this mess and apparently is what is keeping us there. | ||
| M1combat |
EXCELLENT post Outrider. Thank you. | ||
| Outrider |
Thanks. Just wish I never got involved in the whole scenario. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. | ||
| M1combat |
Too true. I just think some people are WAY too enthralled with their beliefs that inside every person is a good person. It's mostly true, but when those people are operating under certain systems they have entirely different ideas of what's right and wrong. "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu applies to almost all facets of life. | ||
| M1combat |
Once we sell our infrastructure to someone else they have the ability to rip the carpet out from under us. | ||
| Buellkowski |
Outrider, I'm a licensed customs broker and can add this observation to your post: all the goods I've ever imported from China have been paid for in US dollars, not yuan. Aside from obvious black/gray market transactions, USD's are best used for buying US products, services, & securities. Dollars don't go away and they are worthless scraps of paper unless they're used. They will eventually make their way home, not immediately, but eventually, because that is where they're worth the most. Dollars will buy their bearers more USA-origin raw materials, factory equipment, consulting services, stocks & securities, tech equipment, airplanes, Western-style homes, and (finally, since WTO) consumer products. I'm not making excuses for Chinese business practices, which are "aggressive" at best, but when speaking about the trade imbalance and lost jobs, it's fair to realize that all those dollars will be used to buy things from us that the Chinese still can't provide for themselves. Twenty years ago we said the same things about Japan. Their reliance on the USD has not "bought" us, but instead integrated their economy into our own. (Not surprisingly, my Japanese import cargo is now chiefly paid for in yen.) Globalization is a USA-powered machine and our policies & consuming habits will dictate where it's driven. P.S.: yes, dollars also buy political influence. Need any further convincing that campaign finance reform is desperately needed? edited by buellkowski on June 11, 2004 | ||
| Roc |
Excellent Outrider. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/discus.cgi I posted a related story, link is above. A line I liked was "importing for the short term." I watched a program about the Chinese Auto industry on Discovery, I think, about a month ago. They have had the fastest growing economy for the last 20 years and in the next 20 years they will have more cars than the US, both of those figures blow my mind. It was also interesting that most, maybe all, of the cars sold there are made there. The government established this condition for obvious reasons and foreign companies want the market so they agree. Their new cars are all produced with archaic pollution standards. | ||
| Roc |
I can't think of the source, but it said our primary export to China was trash. They take our scrap paper and metal and sell it back to us as consumer good. | ||
| Outrider |
One thing I did pass over lightly was the power the major US Retailers have on our economy. Quite simply by merit of their size, locations, and low prices they have forced the majority of their competition out of business. In turn, the American Consumers selection of what they can purchase is severely limited and the opportunity to "Buy American" is virtually eliminated in many markets. Wasn't a big problem 20 years ago, but 10 years ago it looked like the end was near and today we know it unless there is some intervention. In the Hardware/Home Center Industry we had the Home Center Chain Guide and the Top 500. The Chain Guide identified approximately 3,000 Hardware/Home Center Dealers and the Top 500 was the cream of the crop most of which qualified to buy manufacturer direct. There were also numerous other directories and lists identifying distributors, buying coops, marketing groups, etc. Today they are almost all gone and billions were lost in just the bankruptcies alone. Today the Top 500 includes only a handful of Hardware/Home Center chains and is now open to all types of retailers in order to make up 500 prospects. Walmart to AutoZone to Best Buy to JoAnne's Fabrics. Trust me, very few are prospects to a manufacturer that specializes in a particular product category. The clout of the Major US Retailer doesn't just stop with eliminating their competition either. An untold number of Trade Organizations, Trade Shows and Conventions, Industry Publications, etc., have all disappeared as well. All of which represented billions to the US economy. Have a hard time with the numbers, in addition to the unemployed and/or displaced worker force, think of all the advertising dollars, printed brochures, business clothing, custom made exhibits, airline flights, car rentals, hotel rooms, telephone bills, restaurant meals, bar tabs, gas, utility consumption, etc., that all this generated per year in the various industries that have been effected and now it is gone. Oh yeah, don't forget about all the tax dollars those activities generated as well. Buellkowski, please don't take this personally. I understand and empathize with your position. However, as far as exports to China we sell them our natural resources and not much else on an ongoing basis. Sure, they buy our consulting services, machinery, technical equipment, airplanes (?) and consumer products that they don't already make long enough to supply a short term demand and figure out how to build them there. Concerning their buying US stocks and securities, that's nice you can add New York, Chicago and LA (major buildings) to the list. In reference to 20 years ago in Japan, I believe 50 years is more accurate and it is quite obvious what has happened to our consumer electronics and automobile industries as a result. Don't think I want to touch on the motorcycle industry as this is a Buell oriented board. Additionally, Japan also owns US stocks, securities, skyscrapers, and mega farms in the Imperial Valley and elsewhere as do the German's and a few others. Then again, I see the Japanese and others contributing to the employment base in this country. I don't foresee the Chinese doing that. Incidentally, all this doom and gloom does not just apply to the US. These issues effect virtually every country in the world, developed or not. We aren't alone, but we are hit the hardest as we have (read: had) the most to loose. Like the old saying goes, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall." I could go on forever about it, but the bottom line is we are all effected regardless of industry. |
