| Author | Message | ||
     Svh |
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/ This could be cool for a commuter in city. There was a dealer with the offroad bike buzzing around Road America this year and it looked great and had the power to get up the turn 5 hill up to the concessions for those that know the track. Nearly 100% recycleable too | ||
| Rubberdown |
Sweet. I would love to try one. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
HOw are these considered "green?" Isn't like 70% of electricity still generated by coal? Prius' actually have a worse impact on the environment than a Hummer when you look at the big picture. Jeez. | ||
| Hootowl |
I wondered the same thing. Still, when you look at the cost per mile (in fuel, not including purchase price) the electrics seem to win. That tells me that they are ultimately using less fuel than an internal combustion engine, which as we all know, are not models of efficiency. There are economies of scale in play with a huge power plant that a single small power plant (the car engine) can not easily match. | ||
| Froggy |
Its all nukes near me. Even factoring in losses from power line transmissions, and storing the power in a battery, you still end up with an efficiency of around 50%, vs 20% of a typical gas vehicle. Electric is the way to go. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I know where I ride, I have to take extra gas because the nearest services are back 76 miles .... what are you gonna do, plug this thing into a current bush >? I would go here before I ever go there http://www.sikkmx.com/sikk-trailbike.htm (Message edited by cityxslicker on August 04, 2009) | ||
| Slaughter |
I think most electricity is coal, natural gas and hydro/electric. NONE of which are very "green" Wonder who is doing a REAL environmental impact of the "green" technologies. | ||
| Svh |
This one in particular is nearly 100% recyclable and the batteries are landfill eligible so they don't have the huge amount of toxins like some electric vehicles. Supposedly they drove one from coast to coast and used less than $30 worth of electricity. That would be a LONG trip at 60 miles then charge for 4hrs. Jay Leno liked it but I don't know how often he complains about the vehicles he tests in Leno's Garage videos. | ||
| Froggy |
Jay appreciates all vehicles so he doesn't complain much. He gives overviews more than a review like in Car and Driver. Anyway, with the Zero bikes the battery can be swapped out in seconds, so you can have one charging while riding the other. Range is still the biggest weakness of electrics, but that will change as time goes on. In the short term cars with gas powered generators like the Chevy Volt will fill that gap. | ||
| Glitch |
I dunno, with a range of only 50 miles before you need a 4 hour charge. I'll wait, I'm sure they'll get better. | ||
| Spike |
I can't see it replacing the traditional motorcycle for weekend mountain runs and such, but I'm thinking an electric bike could be a *great* commuter vehicle. My commute is less than 60 miles round trip, so something that could go an honest ~75 miles and recharge overnight from a standard outlet would leave me a little bit of margin and the option to go out to lunch. Something the size of an SV650 with electric motor torque would be great fun for zipping in and out of traffic. If it had a belt drive it would be almost zero maintenance. The cost of the electricity used would be a fraction of the cost of fuel burned. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep thats why I have been looking into getting one for a while now. My commute is 30 miles each way, so its too close for comfort. Also as batteries degrade and lose range, I wouldn't be able commute anymore. One of my co-workers just got an electric powered Mini Cooper, so perhaps I can con them to install outlets in the motorcycle parking area. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
How much more efficient are electric motors than gas-burning? | ||
| Svh |
They are immensely efficient. I do not know an exact figure but I am sure someone does. The good thing about them is they are torque heavy and make linear hp. This bike makes ~32hp from 1rpm to redline. The torque is what you feel. At least they are coming down in price. This one is $9950 so maybe in 2 more years they will be closer to $5000 and even more economical. | ||
| Froggy |
Three times as efficient at a minimum. It all depends on the type of electric motor used, but in general more than 90% of the energy that goes in will come out the output with the rest lost to friction and heat. Gasoline motors are about 20-25% thermally efficient depending on the motor, then you lose a few more percent in the transmission. Most electric vehicles are 1 speed and some like the Zero have no transmission at all as they don't need to go into reverse. | ||
| Slaughter |
How do you define efficiency? IT STILL NEEDS POWER. It's just that in an electric vehicle, THE POWER is just not generated AT your vehicle as it is in an internal combustion engine but the POWER is generated at a VERY REMOTE location (with losses) and then TRANSMITTED (with losses) and then converted at the battery charger (with more losses)for the batteries (more losses) and then the chemical energy (battery) is again converted to electrical (more losses) and run through voltage regulators and other sytstems (yet more losses) to turn a motor (more losses) which in turn spins a whole drive line (at least THESE losses are common whether internal combustion or electric) Somebody help me here. Yeah, volatile fuel is ALSO very inefficient (has to be refined and transported to the tanks at the gas station) but if you're really wanting to talk efficiencies, ban private transportation. Done. | ||
| Froggy |
You missed my above line, you still yield a 50% overall efficiency using electric even with the losses. Factor in all the losses with getting gasoline into your car, and it is a wonder we still even drive. | ||
| Slaughter |
I am always wondering IF anybody really has done a reality conversion of the TOTAL losses in an electrical "system" - whether hydro, coal, natural gas, nuclear - including all transmission and energy conversion losses (including battery disposal/recovery/replacement) Electricy DOES have inherent efficiencies but ONLY writ large. Individual transportation machinery just doesn't offer the efficiencies of mass transit. | ||
| Svh |
You could charge it off of one of those super efficient Honda generators and lose the electrical losses but pick up the losses to ship and make that gen. Maybe strap one of them to the back of the seat like Froggy's cooler and you could have a very good range although i imagine you can't charge and ride at the same time. Those little Honda gens run for 8+hrs on one tank. | ||
| Hootowl |
"This bike makes ~32hp from 1rpm to redline" Do you mean 32 lb/ft? HP is a function or torque and RPM. It can't remain flat unless the torque falls off at the same rate that the RPM increases. | ||
| Svh |
Nope that is from the Chief Technical Officer for ZERO. I imagine the torque does fall off not sure if that is linear. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Hoot, I had heard that claim (constant HP) before and could never get my head around it... Slaughter, AC transmission is insanely efficient. Watts (which is how you measure the amount of volts lost) is Volts times Amps. With an AC power distribution, they crank up the volts (with a transformer) to really high voltages (like 32,000 volts... Court could tell us more) and get something like a 93% or better efficiency. Very little transmission loss for the amount of power being transferred. Same deal with the turbines and steam systems. Because it is all stationary, and huge, and can be as heavy as you want it, and attached to your local lake or river for cooling, they can make it insanely efficient relative to what a "portable" generation system could ever achieve. | ||
| 44diesel |
Froggy's point is the key one. 50% efficiency from the same amount of fossil fuel vs 20% effciency. It is cheaper (more green) to use grid electricity than create your own power in the vehicle. Once the battery technology improves, the electric vehicle will replace the internal combustion powered vehicle as the preferred mode of personal transport. it will be cheaper to run and maintain, have comparable (and then through time superior) performance. I think it will happen rather quickly. (15 years) | ||
| Slaughter |
Cool... struggling to get my mind around the power from the source (underground petrochemical) - and all the subsequent ineffeciencies in refining and transporation or the power from the electrical source (powerplant). I can really only relate to it as the final machine... electrical losses in transmission (AC power) - is way outside my ability to understand. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
How about the Derringer for a reliable hybrid? 49cc with petal power back, only adds 25 lbs to the original weight of the bicycle.... put that in a dual suspension ride and it solves the uphill issues for mt biking. | ||
| Froggy |
Electrics are just as quick as gas cars. The 1999 Saturn EV1 would do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, about the same as a modern V6 sedan. It was electronically limited to 80mph, but one guy reprogrammed the car and was able to hit 183mph. Here is a old video of EV1 drag racing a Nissan 300z and a Miata. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Many of these electrics seem fine for city commuting but an awful lot of this country is still rural in nature with many miles to go to work or shopping, which is our biggest vehicle movement for most. I like T.Boone Pickins idea of going to natural gas, at least until we find a way to produce vast quantities of hydrogen gas. We could become energy independent and even sell excess to foreign countries and decrease our deficit to them. Researchers say we have a hundred year supply. We could easily do this. Current engines could be converted and new production vehicles would be easy with a minimum of changes to our already fairly efficient internal combustion engines. Gas is very clean with very little emissions, mostly H2O and we could indeed clean up our atmosphere. Gas stations could also be converted fairly easily with, I believe, just bigger gas lines and a change to gas pumps. They already have natural gas to their facilities. This conversion could be done efficiently with a small amount of monetary help (subsidies) from the government compared to the ridiculous amount of our money they want to spend to "go green" I do not understand why we cannot seem to see this. It really seems like a great way to get from here to where we have greater technology for something revolutionary and our whole economy will benefit. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
We are waiting for the U.S. to implode before anyone wants to dirty up a coast line with oil rigs or tap into our "emergency reserve" oil. It frightens me that once we REALLY make the move, it's going to be at least a decade before we see any results. | ||
| Hootowl |
A series wound DC motor has peak torque available at 0 RPM. I think the torque is linear all the way up. In fact, if you do not put a load on a series wound motor, it will continue to rev higher and higher until it destroys itself. | ||
| Alchemy |
Electric motors rock. If you have ever stood next to a high HP electric motor come online it can be impressive. I can't remember the exact horsepower but it was something like 1,000 or 1,500 hp. It was a hugh motor and when it started it was interesting to "feel" it when standing next to it. I rode an modern electric scooter at Americade last year. The way the throttle worked you could go forward or backward with a twist of the grip. Regenerative braking is interesting as well on an electric cycle as it changes how you brake as you can counter turn the grip to add braking at the rear wheel (and recapture power at the same time). |
