| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
I know that this thread will turn inevitably political, but... I spent much of the afternoon watching "The Revolution" on the History Channel. GREAT program, by the way, learned some things I hadn't known before and am glad I now do. But it got me wondering - if we were drag all the founding fathers out of their graves - Washington, Adams, Frankling, et al, what would they think about the place? Think they'd be disappointed? Impressed? I really can't decide for myself what I think. I think our country is a far cry from what they had intended - BUT - at the same time, we face some world-wide challenges that were just unforseeable - so perhaps we're doing pretty good with the cads we've been dealt? Let's try to keep current politics out of this if possible. Discuss. | ||
| Swordsman |
I'm pretty sure we'd make them sick. The vast majority of the population has become utterly complacent and takes freedom for granted. We're now witnessing the birth of entire generations that think society owes them something, and that they're entitled to everything for no reason whatsoever. America could use a good ass-beating from some zombie presidents! ~SM | ||
| Limitedx1 |
everybody thinks society owes them something because if you are a low life they WILL and DO give you everything. i have contemplated so many times about quitting my job and livin off the system because everyone else does and they drive escalades......i just pay all there bills with taxes that get bigger every check. this is why when i twist the grip on the buell and that stuff all goes out the window until i pull into my garage that i instantly remember how much i pay in insurance, federal tax, state tax, municipal tax, social security, cell phone, car payment, health care, school loans......oh ya and they pay nothing to live in a town house end rant....  | ||
| P_squared |
But it got me wondering - if we were drag all the founding fathers out of their graves - Washington, Adams, Frankling, et al, what would they think about the place? Think they'd be disappointed? Impressed? I'd imagine they would be appalled at the SIZE of the Federal Government in comparison to what they originally envisioned. As for the rest of it, there's no telling for sure what they'd feel based on some of their writings left to us. I think Ben foresaw the possibilities of where we are now, so I don't think he'd be surprised really. I also like to think they'd be just a little bit proud of what we've done as a nation in that span of time. Who knows?  | ||
| Ratyson |
I firmly believe that if they were to see what is going on now. They would hold their heads in their hands and weep, uncontrollably. Freedom and Liberty have taken a back seat to security and the grab for power. Instead of "Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" we hear "Where the hell is my government bailout?!" It is a sad, sad situation... That is for sure. I try to make the best of it. I cast my votes for the lovers of Liberty and Freedom. And I plan on teaching my Daughter exactly what the Constitution and Bill of rights were written for. I'm sure that last one will get me in trouble once she starts school. (Message edited by RATyson on July 06, 2009) | ||
| Swordsman |
I know it's a fantasy novel, but if you get the chance, you should read Terry Goodkind's "Faith of the Fallen", book 6 of the "Sword of Truth" series. It's a fantastic example of what happens when the government forces equality at the expense of personal betterment. There may be magic involved, but the true heart of the book is a straight up dissertation on freedom and politics. ~SM | ||
| Fahren |
America could use a good ass-beating from some zombie presidents! Sounds like a great premise for a film, maybe with a zombie cameo from Michael Jackson, too. Many of the founding fathers were very progressive-minded. I have to think that once some of those farmer/statesmen got over the incredible shock from the changes to their rural, agrarian world brought about by the industrial revolution and current, post-industrial world, many of them would love to swing a leg up over a Buell. Jefferson would want to try the latest 1125. He would probably initiate a huge web forum debate with Hamilton over the relative merits of tube-framed Buell versus the fuel-in-frame. Then they would give us all a few lessons on the Constitution and a good zombie a$$-whoopin'. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I'd imagine they would be appalled at the SIZE of the Federal Government in comparison to what they originally envisioned. I think this is my biggest hang up for them being proud of where we are as a nation. I think the Federal gov't has its hands it too many things, and from the National to Local level, I think there are far too many taxes, which are needed to fund far too many programs that the gov't should not have taken responsibility for. But in the end, where we are today is only a result of the the population, in a round about way, has ALLOWED politicians to do - and that, in some sick twisted wat, is exactly what the forefather's wanted, no? I'm not saying I like it, or that they would, but the mechanisms were put in place for a reason. Now, misintepretations of things like the 2nd ammendment... that's another story. | ||
| Bill0351 |
That was a great show. It reminded me of how complicated this country has always been. I thought it was interesting how self serving large portions of the masses were even then. Patriots fought loyalists, and plenty of people fought for whatever side they thought was most likely to win. The North was still suspicious of the South, and huge numbers of people just wanted to be left alone. Both armies and civilians did horrible things to one another that rate right along with war crimes from any conflict going on today. I think it's way too easy to say the Founding Fathers would be sickened by what they see. My guess is that once they got past the superficial changes that have taken place, and the explosion of population and infrastructure, they would see that things really haven't changed all that much. At least not that much when it comes to the actual people who live here. Even the political debates we are having now over the power of the Federal government have been going on since the start of our country. Some of the fathers would be happy with what they see. Some would be disgusted. All of them would be fascinated though. We have gone from a colony of 2.5 million subsistence farmers with split loyalty into a world power with 302,000,000. I think, on balance, they would be in awe over what they accomplished. Nice place we live here in The United States of America. Too many people spend way too much time being disgusted and not enough time being as proud as they should be. Bill | ||
| White |
As stupid as it may sound (to some of you) I think everything goes full circle. The same struggles that people had 2,000 years ago we still have to day. We have most of the same fights with people and nation to nation. China's been around for how many years and they still don't have it right! Class envy and class struggles are still the topic of today just as it was 2,000 years ago. We still fight about women and how things should be divided up. Hell, we are still having discussions if Jesus was a crazy person or the real deal. Everything goes full circle. America will fall and another nation will takes it's place as world leader. Nothings new under the sun! | ||
| White |
Bill wrote: I thought it was interesting how self serving large portions of the masses were even then. Patriots fought loyalists, and plenty of people fought for whatever side they thought was most likely to win. The North was still suspicious of the South, and huge numbers of people just wanted to be left alone. Both armies and civilians did horrible things to one another that rate right along with war crimes from any conflict going on today. Wow Bill as I was writing that you posted before me. That's my point that's nothings new, It's all the same.} | ||
| Greenlantern |
The North was still suspicious of the South I STILL think Glitch is up to something!  | ||
| Ceejay |
On NPR a couple of days ago they had an economist on. I don't remember the name of the guy or the exact details but the gist of his position was, if the current admin gets thier way, there will have been little reason for the tea party and thus the revolution. We will have similar tax rates, structure, and governmental layout as the brits, and as such when folks look back they may wonder what all the hubub was about. | ||
| Vanvideo |
I've considered the scenario before. I'm sure they'd be astounded at how powerful the US has become. We're still the world leaders, by far. We're still its only superpower. Regarding today's society, there would be so many elements that would absolutely shock them, I'd venture to guess they could not possibly have predicted such an outcome. Gay marriage rights, women and blacks voting, immigration: who knows what their opinions would be on these issues? | ||
| Limitedx1 |
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| Moxnix |
Our founding fathers all enjoyed educations with an emphasis on the classics and history, ethics and religion, as well as the mathematics and sciences of the day. A couple of months ago in KC I drove past a school with the street sign noting it So and So Middle School for Classical Studies. Empty, weeds to an elephant's eye. Shame really. It is my speculation that our founding fathers would today find the lack of scholarship in the public school system to be surprising, let alone disappointing. | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Good a place to rant! After purchasing my first home (very expensive process) I have to get the water changed to my name from the old owner's name.. $90 deposit (seems a bit steep for perfect credit but ok I can handle that..) $25 hookup charge (for checking the meter? seriously?) $40 home inspection fee (I'm paying a city worker to wake me up after working mids, so he can invade my privacy and inspect WHAT!? IT'S FREAKIN RUNNING WATER! To top it all off I went to the utilities building.. nice brand new building that's so big only about half of the offices are even occupied. There's simply no need for the rest of them. NOW I know why they need my $155. All that to get WATER! George would be PISSED. F&%# government. I feel better now. | ||
| Guell |
Dont get me started on taxes.... I would only hope the zombie founding fathers would start another revolution. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I do believe that they would be impressed by the power and might of the free market system of which they laid the foundation. I do believe they would be impressed with our military might. I do believe they would be impressed with our 200+ history of working to support, and create liberty anywhere and everywhere possible. I do believe they would be impressed with our stance in stamping out tyranny where ever we find it. I believe they would be appalled at the size, scope, and reach we have allowed the Federal government to obtain. I believe they would be appalled at the confiscation and redistribution of wealth that occurs in this country. I believe they would be appalled at the state of our education system and the manner in which it has been hijacked to provide indoctrination rather than critical thinking. I believe they would be appalled at the contravention and outright abrogation and of the Constitution by those sworn to uphold and defend it. I believe they would be making claims of "taxation without representation" given the heavily progressive nature of our tax system whereby 50% of our population pay virtually NO tax yet have an equal vote to those forced to pay. I believe they would be appalled at the New Deal, the Great Society, TARP, The Spendulous Package, the Earmarks, the takeover of the Auto Industry, and the nationalization of the medical industry. I believe the founding fathers understood that there will always be those without and that subsidizing their "withoutness" only creates more of those without. These were not cold heartless men. They understood that self determination was the quickest road from nothing to everything. They also knew that a government that provided everything for it's people would ultimately be the master of the people. This is why they sought to break free from the entanglements of Britain in the first place. I'm pretty sure they would be seeking the same actions that brought us independence. | ||
| Moxnix |
Hey, don't sugar coat it. | ||
| Glitch |
What would the Founding Father's think? After they've stopped spinning in their graves, I think they'd think we're past due for an overhaul. I STILL think Glitch is up to something! Ya reckon?  (Message edited by glitch on July 06, 2009) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I believe they would give the current crop of dolts in Washington a verbal tongue lashing the likes they've never seen. Adams would probably wield the sharpest tongue ( a man of little patience) while Jefferson and Franklin would be more diplomatic in their approach but laced with a fair amount of sarcasm and wit. One should recall, there was no TV, radio, Internet, video games, sports, etc. to clutter the mind. There simply weren't the personal distractions so prevalent in the modern world. Books were valuable and sought after. Many were Masons because Masonic Lodges provided meeting places for men to express themselves intellectually - free from the religious dogma of the period. In other words, these men were true intellectuals and not just part-timers like the Limbaughs and Michael Moores of today. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
BBC Radio 4 have been running this for some months now, very interesting & informative, I'm hoping it'll come out on cd. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/america/ | ||
| Cyclonedon |
What would the Founding Father's think? questions they might ask (1) what is BadWeb? (2) what is the internet? (3) what is a Buell? (4) what is a motorcycle? (5) why discuss politics on a motorcycle forum? there would be many questions and when they finally got around to talking about politics they would certainly ask what on earth were you people thinking when you voted for George W. Bush in 2004? Didn't you learn anything from his first term in office? }I'm sure they would have a lot of questions to ask, these are just a few | ||
| Slaughter |
OK - let me TRY to understand this... The OP asks what the "Founding Fathers" would think... about WHAT? About the state of urban renewal during the Hoover administration? About the erosion of civil liberties during Lincoln's administration and his suspension of habeus corpus? If you're asking if the "Founding Fathers" would be disappointed or what they'd think and NOT ask about current politics, just WTF are you asking people to comment on??? | ||
| Slaughter |
...and one other thing - people can discuss IF they feel like discussing and NOT because they've been "commanded" to "discuss." Discuss | ||
| Spiderman |
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| Xl1200r |
If you're asking if the "Founding Fathers" would be disappointed or what they'd think and NOT ask about current politics, just WTF are you asking people to comment on??? I think it's more than possible to talk about the current state of the country without including "Obama sucks" or "G.W. effed it all up". .and one other thing - people can discuss IF they feel like discussing and NOT because they've been "commanded" to "discuss." It was nothing more than a friendly closing... The OP asks what the "Founding Fathers" would think... about WHAT? About the state of urban renewal during the Hoover administration? About the erosion of civil liberties during Lincoln's administration and his suspension of habeus corpus? From my original post: what would they think about the place? Think they'd be disappointed? Impressed? Seems pretty clear to me... | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
They'd probably grope Sarah Palin until their wooden teeth fell out. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Except for size of government and our position as a world power, I can't really see all that changed that much since the Founding Fathers' time that would surprise them . Current or past, politics are still the same as always, thus the term "politics". There is a general belief that people of that age were somehow more noble and honorable than those of today, yet true historical accounts show that not to be true. In this "age of information" we get bombarded by countless accounts of crime, atrocity and moral decay on a 1/4 hourly basis. In ye olden days they got the same news but weekly ( Horses and telegraph fingers are only so fast). It has been a uphill battle from the very beginning , and if you go back and read some of Founder's quotes and writings (especially Washington and Franklin) you will see that they foresaw these difficulties and tried to warn against the temptations that would lead to them, nobody listened to them. As long as we engage in dialogue about whether we endure or not, then we do. It is when the dialogue ends that you should contemplate the worse. The Founding Fathers put in motion a great experiment, not though force of arms though such was used to defend it but though will and determination. It has withstood trials that no other confederation has before or since endured and still stands intact. We still have as always, the tendency to employ tunnel vision when looking at our history both past and in the making, a flaw our Founding Fathers managed to suppress when starting this wonderful journey that we now have been entrusted to continue. I believe the Founding Fathers would be proud of our perseverance and vindicated in their sacrifices. Remember, not all of our children become world leaders, doctors,pillars of society and the such, but we still love them and are proud of them for what they are. This is America and we are her children. |
