| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
Madness. Since when do I move to the country so my neighbors can tell me what to do with my property??? This guy is living the dream, and all those around him are trying to squash it. http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?sto ryID=814671&TextPage=1 | ||
| Slaughter |
Problem I have is when somebody moves into an existing area and THEN puts in a track. I think the neighbors have a right to be concerned - especially if THEY moved there many years ago BECAUSE it was a quiet, country location. However, people who move next to airports and existing race tracks and then complain, I have no patience for. I think the guy screwed up by not looking into it before making his move 3 years ago. (Message edited by slaughter on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Tq_freak |
I can agree with you Slaughter for the fact that the neighbors were their first and that isn't necessarily what they wanted. But this guy has about 250 acres, if the location is in the middle of the property what is the likely hood that the neighbors would be affected or even hear it? That needs to be considered also. If its up against the property line I would feel different about it and would be more likely to side with the neighbors even though I am a motorcycle enthusiast, I might not want hear it 24-7 (ok that's a lie) my wife might not wan to here it and I wouldn't want to hear her complain about it. its a tough call, the city board needs to weigh it all in before they rule on it. I don't think he necessarily screwed up by not looking into it 3 years ago, maybe it was a dream that wasn't realized until after he had the property and one of his buddies pointed out "hey you got enough land for your own track back here" | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
screw that its his land and he bought it he should be able to do what he wants on it | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Your property rights end where your enjoyment infringes upon the rights of others to enjoy THEIR property. Just because you bought a house and own the land it doesn't mean you can part a rusted out Camaro on blocks in the front yard. YOUR enjoyment of your property infringes upon the rights of your neighbor to enjoy their property. Much of that enjoyment is in the appreciation of value, the view their property enjoys, and the impression their neighborhood has on others. 250 acres is a lot of land, but it isn't enough to prevent the noise contamination that WILL come from his use of HIS property. If he had built his track on land without anyone around him and then they built around the track, they knew the issue. They knew the exposure and made a purchase decision accordingly. If and when his track is built, it will directly affect the property values of the houses around the property with the track on it negatively. It will make these homes harder to sell. He DOESN'T have the right to create a circumstance whereby his enjoyment infringes upon his neighbors. Period. I love motorcycles. Were I a riding neighbor, I'd be excited to have use of his track. Unfortunately, I would also have to accept the fact that my house would probably be worth less as a result of it's existence. I doubt that most of his neighbors are willing to accept that impact. I'd sue too. | ||
| Bikejunky |
Personally I don't think anyone should be able to regulate what an individual does on his own property for private use. That being said, I haven't been able to hear the flat track races that go on less than a mile from my house with 25 or 30 guys ripping around a track. and Crowds... Even 100 people parking their cars makes a tiny dent in the space availiable on 250 acres. People are just way to dern sensitive if you ask me. | ||
| Cyclone8u |
So is there a law saying you can't race on your own private race track with a bike that has a quiet muffler?  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
People are just way to dern sensitive if you ask me. Tell that to the guy (me) who's neighbor had a clapped out POS parked in front of they guy's (my) house by they guy's (my) neighbor for 3 years and had to look at it every day. HIS rights infringed upon MY rights. If you are offended by the actions of the neighbors in this story, you are probably the shit bag neighbor in your neighborhood. | ||
| Bikejunky |
FT My answer would have been call a tow truck. Thats what I did when the neighbor parked his boat in front of my garage and didn't move it. I think that it's different when you are talking about a private track in the middle of 250 acres of land vs a POS 35 feet from your front door. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
My neighbors dog poo stinks up my back yard....and stinks really bad some days. The unloved dogs are in a pen....as far away from their house as possible..... and right next to my property line.This is a 24/7 dealio and I pretty much have my hands tied and have to put up with it.The white trash neighbor will "revenge" if I take any action. The race track noise would more than likely be minimal.....unless the dude is anal and rides all day,every day. Better noise than barking dogs. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The white trash neighbor will "revenge" if I take any action. Exactly why I didn't (and couldn't) have the car towed. Would there be MUCH question as to who had requested the car to be moved? Unfortunately, what SHOULD have been common sense from a GOOD neighbor and provided good neighbor practices is unfortunately not as common as should be. The POS car was at least only an eyesore. If he spent every day from 5PM to 12AM "rev tuning" the engine as well as leaving it parked in front of my house, I'd be more pissed than having to just look at it. Sound is worse than site when it comes to neighbor infringement. "Combining Multiple Sound Sources When sounds are being generated in the same general area by more than one source, either at the same levels or at different levels, it is possible to determine the total contribution of these sources to the noise environment. As mentioned earlier, since sound is measured on a logarithmic scale, it is not possible to get the combined effect by simply adding the measured values together (i.e. 180 dB +180 dB ¡Ù 360 dB). Two examples are provided below showing how the total overall noise levels are derived from sounds generated at the same level, and from sounds generated at different levels. DEIS 6-1 DEIS Appendix 6¨CNoise Measurements and Influencing Factors (a) Combining sounds generated at the same level. Adding multiple sources of the same sound pressure level (SPL) is based on the following formula: SPLtotal = (10 * log (# of sources))+SPL of one source For instance, 3 tugs operating at 140 dB would be calculated thusly: SPLtotal = (10 * log (3))+140 ≅ 145 dB re 1 ¦ÌPa If sounds at a 140 dB level were produced by two sources in the same area, the total sound level would be logarithmically calculated to be 143 dB. If the140 dB sounds were generated from five sources in the same area, the total sound level would be 147 dB. If ten sources were each generating a 140 dB sound in the same area, the total sound would be 150 dB. This means that in general, for every 10 sources in the same area generating sounds at the same level, the overall sound level increases by 10 dB." So multiple riders on this private course will have the effect of creating a larger sound footprint than a single bike would. The louder the sound footprint, the farther the distance the sound will travel and the greater the intensity over the longer distance. I can't find the formula, but at the intensities indicated by the above formula, there would be sufficient sound intensity to leave the property (even 250 acres) to bleed over into the neighbor's property. 250 acres is only 2.62 square miles. Assuming it is a square (but it probably isn't), the distance from the center to the edge of the property is only 1.31 miles. Assuming the property is relatively flat, motorcycles at full song (especially multiple motorcycles) would have the sound footprint to travel that distance and then some. Most train horns are running around 130dB. They will travel a distance of 4-6 miles. A motorcycle (or group of motorcycles) will have a combined sound that will travel at least 2-3 miles. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
On a good evening,I can hear(faint) the stock car races that are 19 miles away as the crow flies.........pretty cool! On my other hand, the neighbors with the dogs just put in a HUGE(for white trash) above ground swimming pool. Looks about 5' high and a 20 foot circle. Thru this summer.... and I don't know how,their dogs will take a crap in the pool....... and often...........  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I could hear the amateur stock car races at the Tennessee State Fair Grounds growing up. The track is an oval in a bowl with high fencing. It's 9.1 miles away. | ||
| Bott |
Zip..just dont forget ta wear your gloves  | ||
| Bikejunky |
Just move on out to Montana. 4th biggest state with the third lowest population density. Can build a race track almost anywhere out here! Hell I'll even ride it for you, and give ya some pointers! | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Just because you bought a house and own the land it doesn't mean you can part a rusted out Camaro on blocks in the front yard You can in Ohio...LOL  | ||
| Xl1200r |
Sorry, Fat, I gotta disagree with you on this one. My soon-to-be-neighbors have a pool, kids and a dog. I don't generally like noise. Should I be able to keep him from having kids and dog play in the backyard and in the pool? Absolutely not. My view on this, if his neighbors don't want him doing what he pleases with HIS property, than they should have bought it. Should my new neighbors be allowed to tell me I can't work on my Harley with the garage door open and some music on because it makes noise and makes the place look like a chop shop? Should my neighbor be able to keep me from putting up a fence because it disturbs their view? You say you should be able to require someone NOT to do something to save property values. Then is your argument that those same people should be able to require someone TO DO something to increase property values? Should I have to reside my house because everyone else on the block already has and mine is bring values down? I think not. I stand where this does, and I have half the mind to write him a letter ecouraging him to enjoy his land in the manner in which he pleases. BTW - one if his arguments is that many of the other residents use ATVs and dirtbikes on their land - just because he's decided to pave part of his yard, why would the situation be any different? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
My soon-to-be-neighbors have a pool, kids and a dog. I don't generally like noise. Should I be able to keep him from having kids and dog play in the backyard and in the pool? There is a vast difference between kids, dogs, and pools and a full scale race track in the back yard. if his neighbors don't want him doing what he pleases with HIS property, than they should have bought it Really? How practical is this? If you can't afford to buy the 2.63 square MILES around your house, I should be able to do what ever I want to next door? What's worse is that in the current real estate market, these folks couldn't easily sell their property to get away from the situation or sell it without taking a significant financial hit. Should my new neighbors be allowed to tell me I can't work on my Harley with the garage door open and some music on because it makes noise and makes the place look like a chop shop? There is a difference between using a garage for it's intended purpose and exceeding property use. If you were attempting to run a commercial mechanic's shop out of your garage, your neighbors would have the grounds to seek injunction. Should my neighbor be able to keep me from putting up a fence because it disturbs their view? Not usually, but if you intended to build a fence out of crushed cars I suspect they they would have grounds to seek injunction. You say you should be able to require someone NOT to do something to save property values. Then is your argument that those same people should be able to require someone TO DO something to increase property values? Should I have to reside my house because everyone else on the block already has and mine is bring values down? You COULD be compelled to satisfy minimum standards of property care depending upon where your property is located. Municipalities can compel property owners to mow, trim trees, trim bushes, keep up with property condition or have the property seized and sold or demolished. There is NO such thing as COMPLETE property rights freedom in the US. You couldn't build a cold water reactor on your property. You couldn't strip mine on your own property. BTW - one if his arguments is that many of the other residents use ATVs and dirtbikes on their land - just because he's decided to pave part of his yard, why would the situation be any different? There is a significant difference in the noise levels generated by an ATV and those generated by fine "Italian sport bikes". The existence of the track also creates the situation of property development permanence. This guy will move or die and the property will transfer to the next owner. What will the NEXT owner be like? Will the use of the property change beyond the original scope? Will the track be expanded? Once the track is approved and created, it'll be damn near impossible to patrol it's use or remove it down the road. Now if he wanted to be savvy, he would buy the property of the neighboring folks who don't want the track there. He could then expand the access to the track and sell the surrounding properties as "race enthusiast" homes. Those who don't mind the track could then market their properties similarly. The problem is that you can not FORCE folks to alter THEIR property use to accommodate YOUR plans for property use. Surely someone who is an "heir to a banking fortune" and "CEO of the Bank of New Jersey" could afford to guy out those folks who aren't really into the track. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...250 acres is only 2.62 square miles... There are 640 acres per square mile. 250 acres is less than .4 square mile. Trust me, I was a farm kid. G | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You are correct. I misread the conversion. This makes the situation even worse. It's .3906 square miles. So at dead center of his property, the neighboring residents could be as close as a fifth of a mile away from the "action". Depending upon the angle of the track, their home could be on the business end of a straight away meaning that they will get 100% of the sound the entire length of the straight. At a fifth of a mile, you'd be able to hear that pretty easily. | ||
| Buelleaver |
I can not or will not comment about specific situations, but without a doubt our society as a whole has become way to caught up in worrying about what their neighbor’s are up to. A lot of people can’t seem to mind their own business and try to force behavior upon other people. You see this in people how want to ban motor boats from all lakes, or hunting, or dirt bikes, or rifle ranges, or what ever is up there ass. Kids can’t even skateboard without getting harassed. These do-gooders seem to lack a life and don’t want anybody else to have one. Flemington speedway in NJ is a perfect example of pressure on race tracks, the place existed for ever, developments moved in and complained about the dust, so they paved it, then it was the noise, they eventually were forced to close. They knew the track was there before they bought their house. This will soon be the plight of almost every small dirt track in the northeast. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...So at dead center of his property, the neighboring residents could be as close as a fifth of a mile away ... Sorry to sound like a Junior High math teacher but; a property of .3906 square miles in area (250 acres) would be .625 miles along each side if it were laid out in a square. G | ||
| Bikejunky |
Buelleaver +1 I am sick and tired of people telling me what I can't do because THEY don't like it. If I had the money I would buy all of the downtown area here, smooth out the streets and make a Bike, Rally car, Drift car, mini indy, F1, and shifter cart, and scooter road race circuit. All Racing All Day Long! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
That's the point. The track WASN'T there BEFORE they moved in. Had it been, they would have no argument. | ||
| Bads1 |
}Exactly why I didn't (and couldn't) have the car towed I've done it and I'll do it again. I pay good money every month for my house. I also pay big money for property taxes. If my neighbor want's confrontation or revenge I know where to go and what to do. I will not live my life being afraid of what one will do because I did whats right or in complete legal rights. I always talk to the them first. If it doesn't work I call the propper authorities. Done deal and fixed.  | ||
| Xl1200r |
There is a vast difference between kids, dogs, and pools and a full scale race track in the back yard. I don't see a vast difference. What if you made the simple and realistic substitution that they were breeding dogs instead of just owning one? What then? If you can't afford to buy the 2.63 square MILES around your house, I should be able to do what ever I want to next door? I'm not going to bust your balls about the conversion factor - I know that's not the main point. But, YES, you hit the nail on the head. There was a community not far from me that was making local headlines because Wal-Mart wanted to build a store, but locals were dead set on blocking them from coming in. Wal-Mart was planning on buying an apporiopriately zoned commercial plot. My opinion is the same now as it was then - If you don't want Wal-Mart to build a store, then YOU buy the property before they do. There is a difference between using a garage for it's intended purpose and exceeding property use. If you were attempting to run a commercial mechanic's shop out of your garage, your neighbors would have the grounds to seek injunction. Correct - but noise is noise, no? Not usually, but if you intended to build a fence out of crushed cars I suspect they they would have grounds to seek injunction. I suspect they would as well - but - what if I wanted to put up a wood fence and my neighbor was some deforestation nut and it offended them? You COULD be compelled to satisfy minimum standards of property care depending upon where your property is located. Municipalities can compel property owners to mow, trim trees, trim bushes, keep up with property condition or have the property seized and sold or demolished. This I do agree with... the example if hard to make... There is a significant difference in the noise levels generated by an ATV and those generated by fine "Italian sport bikes". Seriously? I can put any muffler on any engine - and you know that as well as I do. ATVs and dirtbikes can be PLENTY loud, and sport bikes can be reasonably quiet. I don't think this argument can be made without knowing the particular machines in question. Let me wrap up by saying that if I were a non-motorcycle neighbor of this guy, I may take issue with what he wants to do (I doubt it, as I don't see my beliefs changing all that much based on my hobby), but it's a possibility. I do geniunely understand where these folks are coming from. But - as with MANY things with government regulation - where does it stop? Where I live, dirt track racing is pretty big, and lots of people have race cars that get worked on - which means they get run in these garages, located around other homes. Should neighbors dictate hobbies? I just see the possibility of this getting pushed way too far. | ||
| Boltrider |
Hmmm, very interesting. I think I would be lining up trying to get in for some laps, but that's easy for me to say because I don't live there. | ||
| Bott |
XL : lets just hope he builds it, and lets us go play on it... | ||
| Boltrider |
But - as with MANY things with government regulation - where does it stop? It goes back to that old adage that once it begins, it probably won't stop. Land use laws are crazy out here. My mom needed a build permit to put up a tool shed in her backyard because the top of the shed was about 2 feet taller than the fence line. (Message edited by boltrider on June 28, 2009) | ||
| Guell |
Trying to squash his dream? Have you considered that he might be trying to squash their dream? I know id be pissed if i was living out in the country for the peace and quiet and some DC comes and attempts to build a race track next door. |
