| Author | Message | ||
     Preybird1 |
Look at these heads, WOW they are spendy!! Anyone ever hear of these before? here is the link http://araoengineering.com/barley.htm (Message edited by preybird1 on March 30, 2009) | ||
| Preybird1 |
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/02/26/4-val ve-hemi-heads-for-harley-big-twin-engines/comment- page-1/ | ||
| Rfischer |
Those have been around for several years, marketed under a couple different brands. Not much point to them really as multi-valve heads don't flow appreciably more than 2-valve heads 'till you get north of 6000 rpm which is grenade territory for a big-twin. In fact, similar real-world power gains can be achieved with EVO Big-Twins by going to smaller ports [along with some intake manifold work] in stock heads. Alternatively, you can bolt on a set of 883 Sportster heads [with some fin trimming for the different push-rod angles] and get the same results. I am reminded of the Weslake 4-valve heads for T120 Triumphs 'back in the day'. Looked cool, but didn't make much more power for similar reasons. Pssst: think velocity, not flow | ||
| Court |
4 Valve heads (was it Feuling?) have been around since about 1988. I'm not that up on the specifics but they just never seemed to catch on. Pammy or someone could explain why but I got the impression they never worked all that well. | ||
| Rfischer |
Yeah, it was Jim Feuling. He was a cylinder head whiz who worked for GM in the 70's & 80's. Among other things, he was the guy behind the Olds Quad-4 motor that seriously challenged the Europeans for high-output small motors. Also developed a "fast-burn" head for GM big-blocks that significantly improved fuel economy. Designed and patented a 3-valve head, which led to his downfall. When M-B introduced their 3-valve motors, Feuling tried to enforce his patents. Lost. More than lost; M-B got a judgement against him for 'infamous conduct'. Seems he started writing letters threatening lawsuits against individual dealers if they sold cars which purportedly violated his patents in an attempt to pressure the Germans. He was forced into bankruptcy after the patent case was lost and died a few years later. His kid, or wife, or someone in the family has started up again with some H-D aftermarket bits. Interesting history and an interesting guy who clearly had talent, if not business sense. | ||
| 86129squids |
Was that the guy who did the mutant pushrod "W-3" 3 cylinder motor? I'd LOVE to hear one of those run, better yet build a good handling power cruiser around one. Kewl stuff. | ||
| Rfischer |
Yes, the "W" motor was his. It didn't get developed beyond a cobby running prototype so far as I know. | ||
| Court |
>>>Interesting history and an interesting guy who clearly had talent, if not business sense. That's fascinating. I'd heard the name, knew (albeit with no technical details) that the heads had never really caught on, but didn't know his background and travails. It interests me, as an entrepreneur, student and businessman, how some folks with true genius seem to never get traction. It's one of the things that has always fascinated me about Erik Buell and made me a bit of a pundit when the John Britten comparisons come up. It's one thing to possess genius . . . an entirely different skill set to transform it into hundreds of patents, an organization imbued and driven with the values of it's creator and a profit making venture. Erik Buell's bikes are one thing . . . .but how may THOUSANDS of folks have tried, struggled and fought just to get in a mere licensing agreement with Harley-Davidson. I'll be giving a keynote speech on May 19th and the subject is going to be very related to this topic. Regardless of the level of genius one possesses if you can not effectively communicate it, either in the spoken or the written word, you are going to an intellectual combat zone with an empty magazine in your weapon. Interesting. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Feuling was cut from the same kind of paper as Smokey Yunick...or Burt Rutan....obviously with different success, but not afraid to think outside the box...or even believe the thinking had to be box-like... (Message edited by fast1075 on March 31, 2009) | ||
| Court |
Frankly kind of amazing folks . . . even though they never "launched" their innovation and genius is undeniable and we can learn much from them. I **think** Feuling has something to do with all these "square" helmets I have sitting around here. | ||
| Crackhead |
the problem i see with the 4 v heads is there is no intake runner control to turn the heads into 2v at below 4k and into 4v above 4k. This would increase the port velocity for low rpm and still maintain flow for high rpm. Then there is the crap about not having necessary runner length to even help with fill. | ||
| Rfischer |
And that, boy's 'n girls, would be why ECU controlled variable-length runners have been developed in a variety of modern bike and automotive applications. A high-tech gearhead version of having your cake and eating it too. | ||
| Moxnix |
4-vales take you out of the pushrod class in land speed venues, per the rule books, where the top end likes to breath. | ||
| 86129squids |
"Yes, the "W" motor was his. It didn't get developed beyond a cobby running prototype so far as I know." I may be wrong, but seems I read that at least a few applications of this "W-3" motor DID run well, and put up some impressive HP/TQ numbers. Having worked at a prominent HD/BUELL dealer for 4.5 years and watching the "scene" all this time, I'd dearly LOVE to ride up on a mutation with that motor and watch all the posers piss their pants. I remember the article stated that the exhaust note "would make the hair stand up on the back of your neck", or something to that effect. Anyone care to surf a little and dig up the latest info on Feuling? Jim (dad?) passed away I think, and the kids have continued his work AFAIK. | ||
| Rfischer |
See above. Jim Feuling died several years ago and the company was defunct. Nobody "continued the work" as there was no $$ and "nobody" knew how to anyway. Recently, some Feuling-labeled H-D aftermarket parts have shown up in a few catalogs such as J&P Cycles. No hard parts or complex stuff such as heads. The "W" motor hasn't surfaced again yet. I do not believe there were any applications of the motor, nor was it in production form. Running, yes - after a fashion. I made a concerted effort to track it down 3 or 4 years ago, unsuccessfully. | ||
| 86129squids |
Rf- Sounds bout right- it's been that long since I remember reading about him and the W-3. Too bad you didn't turn much up. What I remember reading was very interesting- a gearhead's gearhead. Would definitely take a highly trained machinist to keep one up. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Ness got his hands on a Fueling "W" motor and put in a chopper on one of those "reality" shows.. | ||
| Ourdee |
"greer 02.26.08 at 9:04 pm Aren’t stock evo heads hemispherical?" That Q. was asked on the site in the link. Is the Thunderstorm a hemi? Please, educate me. Or point me in the right direction and I'll study it out. | ||
| Sarodude |
I recall that Larry Hagman (Dallas, I Dream Of Genie) had one. He live(s/d) in or near Ojai. I also recall that Feuling had developed a Dyna style frame for that motor. I think it was more than just a pipe dream or prototype - but clearly not made in huge numbers. -Saro | ||
| Oddball |
  Was an odd looking thing | ||
| 46champ |
There was one at the Bub meet last year best speed I could find was 170.215 and made several runs at 165 to 170. | ||
| Oddball |
Looks like Ness rotated the engine back a bit | ||
| Firemanjim |
Not sure who is building them but there were 2 VERY well done bikes at Bonneville from a Dutch or German team with W-3 motors, one was turboed. Both in full bodywork and sounded awesome!!!!They had W-3 insignias on their leathers and the bikes and were serious as a heart attack. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Generally lacking the ease of opening a catalog and just ordering whatever goodies you fancy, the Europeans and the fine chaps from down under are very creative and self sustaining...much like so many bikes built for the salt....ain't that right Jim???  | ||
| 86129squids |
Oddball- thanks for the motor porn! It's just fun looking at those monsters. Would love to hear one in person. Got a full-size bike pic of the 2nd one you posted? Looks to be a different bike, thankfully not so OCC'ish. | ||
| Oddball |
those were just pics i found in a quick google search |
