| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
The band is going to start gigging real soon, and we'll have some studio time before that, which means I need to pick up some sound gear for the drum set, but I'm not sure what to be looking at. Mics are subjective, and I'm not looking for help on that. But for the main question, it'll be important to know that I'll be running balanced cardioid dynamic mics on the bass, snare and all toms, and cardioid condesor mics for the overheads. Our band doesn't have a very big mixing board, so I'm planning on getting a small one for the drum set so we can just sub-mix them in, but I have no idea what to get. I'm looking at the Peavey PV series, but I don't want to buy more than I need. Since I have 7 channels worth of mics, if I get a PV10, one of the mics would have to go into an unbalenced 1/4" input, while everything else would run through balanced XLR or balenace 1/4" Line inputs. Would running a balanced mic through an unbalenced input really hinder the sound at all? If I get the PV14, I can run everything through XLR inputs. | ||
| Hammer71 |
PM jimduncan. he'll point you in the right direction | ||
| Slowride |
I've never really liked the Peavey stuff. I would use something like this... Behringer XENYX 2442FX http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-XENYX-2442FX -103847133-i1166575.gc Balanced connections = less signal loss and more noise rejection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio Mackie's "Balanced Lines, Phantom Powering, Grounding, and Other Arcane Mysteries" which is worth reading despite many people's opinion about Mackie. http://www.mackie.com/pdf/arcane_mysteries.pdf | ||
| Court |
PLEASE buy it anywhere other than Guitar Center. I'd suggest Manny's, Muscian's Friend or Sweetwater. (Message edited by court on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Xl1200r |
I've never really liked the Peavey stuff. I would use something like this... Behringer XENYX 2442FX I was hesitant about it Peavey as well, but I can't find a single bad review on this mixer, unlike the Behringer, which seems to universally suffer from durability issues. PLEASE buy it anywhere other than Guitar Center. I only go to Guitar Center in a pinch. They rarely have the best price on anything, and I have a local music shop that I prefer to frequent. Balanced connections = less signal loss and more noise rejection. That was what I thought - more reading showed that balenced is typically associated with Pro audio equippment, and unbalanced is more "consumer-grade". The extra unused channels will let me expand as well, in case I add another floor tom, I want to pipe in some sounds from electronic set, or <gasp> they want me to sing. | ||
| Court |
My neighborhood store, arguably one of the most famous in the world, is ALWAYS lots cheaper. Guitar Center REALLY screwed one of the guys in The Thunderbolts when his house burned down. He lost all his records (tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and a full studio) and they refused to provide him with copies. | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
Mark, Stay away from peavy stuff! just don't do it. i know your temped but just walk away!...lol the behringer stuff is ok. but there is definitely reliabilty issues. i have a few behringer rack units in my studio. but i wouldn't take them out to a gig. as far as boards go. i would definitely go with a Mackie. i have ran many sound jobs on a them. they have never let me down. http://www.mackie.com/products/dfx12/index.html another one you might want to look in to is Allen&Heith they make nice boards as well. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Allen -Heath-PA-12-Mixer?sku=634042 as far as mic's go i prefer the EV 468's for toms and the EV bass drum mic for the kick. for the snare you can't beat a plane old sure sm57 http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=2 71222V http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-ELE-ND468-L IST http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure -SM57-InstrumentVocal-Mic?sku=270102 for small diaphragm condenser mics, i have a set of these and they absolutely amazing! http://www.oktavausa.com/ProductsPages/MK-012-01MS P.html one thing to remember if you are going to run a submix for live sound. make sure you run your power for your all of your boards from the same place you get the power for your amps. or you can end up with some nasty ground problems. | ||
| Slaughter |
EWeaver is a new Buell racer out here and is a currently-employed audio engineer. PM him. He doesn't post up here very often. oh and he's an Eric with a "C" (Message edited by slaughter on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Xl1200r |
I knew someone was going to suggest Mackie. Unfortunately, they blow my budget out of the water, unless I can find a steal on a used one. I'll swing by the music shop tonight and see if they have used boards. Do you think an SM57 will work on the toms as well? (Message edited by xl1200r on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
yes sm57 are a great multipurpose mic. the will work well on the toms. the reason i like the EV nd468 better is you get more punch out of them. but the 57's will still sound good and are a lot cheaper. check craigslist and ebay for deals. there a lot of hard up musicians right now. | ||
| Slowride |
From what I remember as the story goes... A few engineers defected from Mackie to Behringer and thus the war was born. | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
behringer definitely looks like cloned mackie stuff. just not as tough. | ||
| Xl1200r |
That's why I asked about the 57s - just cruising ebay and there are literally pages of them for sale used. I have to keep in mind that these will be my first set, not my last... | ||
| Hughlysses |
I went through a couple of studios in Nashville with my daughter last year, who recently majored in Recording Industry at MTSU. The trick setup for recording a kick drum is evidently to use THREE mics. I didn't catch brands or model numbers, but they used a good kick drum/bass mic, something like an SM-57, and a small speaker (~4") wired up as a mic. I was listening to something by Kings-X a couple of weeks ago and mentioned to my daughter how good the kick sounded. She said THAT's what that 3-microphone setup does for you. | ||
| Court |
The SM57 is the workhorse of this age. I've been playing some acoustics that "model" it via the Aura on board electronics but I figured why model when it's just as easy to put an SM57 there and mix it with the onboard electronics from the guitar. I've yet to find any onboard electronics that sound as good as an SM57. I can't speak, like Jim can, about the drums but the SM57 seems to just do whatever is asked of it. The SM57 is kinda like the Boss TU-2 Tuner . . it's ALWAYS $99.00. Scan e-bay and you might pick one up for $89 but then you pay shipping. After months of looking for deals you end up popping the $99 and just doing it . . it'll last you a lifetime. It is, to modern days, what my old Electo-Voice 646's were in the late 60's.  | ||
| Slowride |
I was taught to run sound by my father when I was 8yrs old. I have been in and out of the studios ever since. My personal rig has evolved to the following... Behringer 8 channel Alessis MKII Peavey Amp Shure Studio mic (1" gold pickup) Suspended 3 SM57's for extra All of which is routed to my PC for (movie making, sound recording, etc) I have had real good luck with my Behringer, but alas I don't do live sound. As for the Drum mic setup, my father is a drummer and has been since he could walk. He played drums in a 60's band called "The Five Americans". They had several #1's (I see the light and Western Union). He taught me what most people have lost, 1 mic inside and 1 mic outside the kick. Toms are mic'd from below, snare and high hat together and 2 for the cymbs'. The floor tom shares with the ride cymb. Mix/Mic the drums and then bass first, then the rest of the band. Jam for a bit and then adjust. Always run a separate board for the drums that the drummer can control and feed it in to the main board or mains mix. I could go on and on, but I won't bore you here. Shoot me an email if you would like to know more. btw, my credentials are.... I got a full ride (scholarship) to a university for EE because I was running sound for the Liberal Arts Department and touring with their different shows, but I never did any professional recording. (Message edited by slowride on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
like every one said you wont be disappointed with the 57's. but you do want something a little more beefy for your kick. like hugh was saying recording is a lot different from live sound. i have not gone to school for it but i have been recording bands at least 17 years. a lot of trial and error..lol but when you record drums. i mic them like this. sm57 on top of snare and one on the bottom. EV nd/468 one for each tom on top. micing on top gives you a more punchy clicky type of sound. micing on the bottom will give you a more round sound more like a 70's type sound. kick drum i use EV bass drum mic inside and a Apex large diaphragm condenser in front of the kick. then cover the kick drum with a sound blanket. then i use a CAD equatech 200 large diaphragm mic for high hat for cymbals i use a a pair of octavo's small diaphragm condenser in a y pattern. when recording i end up using 10 tracks for a standard 5 piece drum set. plus i gate and compress all of the drum mic's. no compression or gate on the condensers. Hugh, i will have to try the 3 mic setup. could you have your daughter enlighten me on the speaker thing? i have heard of fattening up tracks by hooking up a speaker to an amp and then playing the snare track though it and recording the speaker. then mixing the 2 tracks together. i think it is called Arthering? ok i am officially geeked out for today....lol | ||
| Hughlysses |
Gary- I'll ask her about the kick drum mic setup. No- there is no upper limit to geekdom! (Message edited by Hughlysses on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Court |
Man I love this place!. . total geek heaven! Micah VERY COOL about your Dad! | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
Micah VERY COOL about your Dad! +1 | ||
| Ourdee |
I like the Allen & Heath MixWizard Series. Have been using a WZ3:16:2 for running the sound at church; Yamaha Drums, Bass and lead, Keyboard, 2 wireless mikes and 7 wired mikes, Feeds from Computer,cd/dvd,and tape deck. Leaves me with a mike in the sound booth to yell at the youth with. I have separate outs for mains, monitors, separate monitor channel to Keyboard player with a custom mix on a powered monitor, a separate out to the computer to sound master for recording so I can burn CDs or load out as MP3s. All ran through 32 channel EQs prior to the amp. Ceiling in building is 35'. The Allen & Heath can be added on to and you can mix groups on one board and send them to another to be controlled all together on one channel. I don't know if it would work for you, But I really like it. I don't want to go back to Peavey. I'm not a sound Eng. | ||
| Slowride |
~Warning~ Thread Jack!! Thanks guys, the ole man is a Rock Star... yeah pretty cool. The only thing worse than having one parent for a rock star is having another one that is a rock star, the mom. She was the singer in a group called "Jon & Robin" They had several hits (Do it again a little bit slower, Honey Bee and Dr. John). Yep... Robin is my mom~ She has a laundry list of notables as well. Not to mention she dated the lead singer of the Herman Hermits. Buggs H pursued her relentlessly until The Dad stole her away. Funny story, about a year or two ago, my sister managed to drag her to Ft.Worth to see a Buggs Henderson concert at a local Bar/Club. My sister found her way to the stage during the performance and at a break got to talk to Buggs. She told him that our mom was in the crowd and for the next 20 min he tried to get her up on stage to sing with him. Good times for sure! The perk to having parents that were rock stars... hmmm let me think about that, LoL nah it was cool. I got to meet a lot of people who have been famous or became famous. To name just a few of the people that I met as a kid and still know or get to see pretty regularly (Buggs Henderson, Jimmy Buffet, SRV(RIP), Andrea Crouch, Prince, Pat Benetar, Brian Wilson, Steppen Wolf crew, Etc....) The list is long and every time I travel with either the mom or the dad we end up at some old rockers house, some I have heard others I haven't. It is almost just like the Buell community. I end up getting to be the witness to some of the best bench racing that there ever was. In this case, it is about stories of touring or "do you remember this gig in this town and how they almost ran us out of town". My favorite run-ins are with the Studio owners. Most memorable was Robin Hood Bryan's. He owns a studio in Tyler TX called Robin Hoods. It was the home of some legendary Texas Rock recordings such as the La Grange LP for ZZ Top. I got to set behind the studio board and listen to stories late into the night as my father and he reminisced about the past and all the bands he had recorded and about the different studios they had @#&&^ up during the years. I keep telling myself I will get a portable recorder and capture all of it, but I typically just forget. The fun part for me is taking "The Dad" on Motorcycle rides like (March Badness) and letting him mingle with the DJKaplin's of the world. My dad and DJ were freakin inseparable at last years MBV. Although my dad was on his Sporty, the Buell community treated him like family. Isn't that really what it all boils down to though.... No matter what your status in the world, you treat people how you want to be treated. ~Thread Jack off~ | ||
| Xl1200r |
Well I stopped by the music shop yesterday to check some stuff out... some questions answered, others still open. My main concern is live sound. We will be recording, but I'm hoping that the guy doing the recording and my band mates will be able to fill any mic and board gaps I might have. Gary - The Mackie mixer you suggested was at my local shop for $250. Good news, it's much less than I thought it would be. Bad news, it's a discontinued model, and the new one includes a 3-channel EQ on each channel (as opposed to two) and a USB out for recording onto a computer. For $30 more, I might just spring for that. I was talking to shop's sound guy, and he said I could plug my 7th channel into a regular line-in jack with a transformer and it would work. He was showing me some mics as well. He has a Shure mic pack that includes a PG52 for the kick, 3 PG56s for the toms, cables and rim mounts for $250. I would still need to buy a snare mic (another $70), and he says that I can probably skip overheads for now because the vocal mics (and we'll have at least three on stage) will pick up the cymbals in smaller venues. He did have a matched set of condensors for around $70 that I would pick up if I need them for recording. I might skip the Shure mic pack all together, and try to peice together some better quality used gear. I think I could get away with a kick, snare, floor tom and then one more mic to share for the rack toms if I needed to. Any thoughts? | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
mark, i would definitely spring the extra $30 for the newer model. you will be way more happy with the 3 channel eq. for live sound we almost never mic the cymbals. unless it is a large venue. but for most bars you will have no need for them. using one mic for your rack toms is also fine assuming you are playing a 5 piece. for recording you want a mic on each drum. so you can pan them in the mix for a stereo sound. | ||
| Xl1200r |
There's a Shure pack on ebay - 3 SM57s and a Beta 52, with mounts, cables and a boom stand for the kick mic for $369. Might be the way to go to get started and not break the bank too bad. I'm concerned that the PG-line from Shure probably isn't worth it... | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
the beta 52 is very nice. sounds like a good deal. | ||
| Ratbuell |
...I've got a non-smoker Mackie 1604VLZ that I'm not using....PM me but don't be upset if I don't get right back to you. I'm in Key West for vacation until the 20th The 1604VLZ, IIRC without looking right at it, has 3 band EQ per channel with sweepable mids, pre/post switchable, 4 aux and 2 main outs, and 4 aux inputs. Each channel also has hi- or lo-z inputs; 12 mono and 2 stereo. All the usual stuff, too - L/R pan on each channel, solo/monitor, etc. Check out http://www.mackie.com/pdf/CMRefGuide/Specs_Ch3.pdf - it's a newer version, I think mine has 14 usable knobs instead of the 16 shown...but I'll have to doublecheck. It's in great condition, I'm just out of the biz now and hate to see it under a pillowcase all the time. No scratches or pops, and I gotta tell you - Mackie is one of the best desks I ever used for hi-gain, lo-noise reinforcement gigs. And, it's rack-mountable | ||
| Court |
Rat: PM Sent | ||
| Xl1200r |
Rat - those 1604s, from what I understand, are real good units, and there are plenty for sale used. In fact, my music shop has two of them on the floor right now. I may consider grabbing one, but they are way more and way bigger than I need or want to lug around. It would allow oue entire band to plug into one board. | ||
| Ratbuell |
...You can never have too many channels of input. Trust me. As for lugging around - they're pretty lightweight, and as I noted above - you can rack-mount 'em. If you've got a rolling case for your amps that has...I think it's eight free spaces (might be six), you can mount this bad boy right in there. The input pod rotates too, so everything faces the same direction as the pots. You'll find a way to use those "extra" inputs, with stuff you never realized you were missing. |
