| Author | Message | ||
     Toronto_s3 |
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Jub aksJournal/5-stocks-for-even-gloomier-times.aspx I'm just curious who you guys think is to blame for all this global economic mess? Clinton? Bush? Greenspan? Basic American Greed? Here in Canada we aren't feeling the economic pain that you guys are going through ((yet)) but I'm curious who you guys feel should shoulder the brunt of the blame for this God forsaken mess. For me personally the CDN dollar has been going down, so more U.S. based work is coming my way, which is better for my business, but my production budgets are are going down too, so keeping my margin is much tougher. I was talking to a client about from the States about this whole banking system mess and her very short answer for why we are here was..."basic American greed". I never really thought of that one previously but it certainly got me thinking. So who is to blame for the current financial mess? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Artificially inflated demand supplemented by inappropriate and imprudent credit practices aided by social engineering and regulatory collusion between Congress and the quasi-governmental mortgage corporations. Hope that's clear as mud. We won't be out until ACTUAL real estate values match ESTIMATED values. That won't happen until the rest of the market is able to recover enough to increase demand for housing. The main reason that the TARP program didn't purchase troubled properties outright is that it would have tied up assets without providing any sort of solution. | ||
| Easy_rider |
American greed/entitlement culture Too many believe they deserved a new home, or new doodad bought with the home equity loan. There was also too much confidence that house prices would always go up so there wasn't any real risk. | ||
| P_squared |
Hey, if you drop the "American" part, I won't take any offense. You have my permission to replace it with "Political" or "Idiot" though. IMO, true Americans, (those who believe in an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, opportunity is there for all but it requires hard work to achieve, etc., etc.) aren't the cause. Just like I don't blame all Canadians for Celine Dion.  | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Basic american greed is what bult this world!!!!!!!!!!!! especially the one you live in up north. say thank you america for your military please. its greed why you have your business, you don't have it to give jobs to people you have it for yourself and family, if its succesful you create jobs for the production. your client is very indoctrinated to the new way of thinking, which is the problem. take from the producers and give to the needy( otherwise know as the non producers, the zero sum voter) and when given a chance the zero sum voter will always vote themselves a pay raise. it is not american greed , it is american laziness. weakness. thoughtlessness,and guilt. guilt for being successfull in a country that is based on success. we praise success, yet we demonize the successful. unless of course they are a hollywood actor, a musician , writer, any artist . because they are suppossedly sensitive and caring individuals. yet they are the biggest capitalist in america. they demand a certain price for there service and get it even before it is know to be successful. george clooney makes 20 mil a pic, for 3 months work yet he demonizes ceo's that take big bonuses, yet how many jobs do their dedcisions support. then are govt goes after their profits. because are govt has never created a profit on its own. oh gas prices at $4 a gallon is all bush's fault, well then does he get credit for $1.50 a gallon. to sum up, and i could go on. the problem is every govt on this earth especially ours. they create regulations for the needy not the productive. They govern completely for the needy and take from the productive. we call this compassionate. I call it robbery. Robin hood was a crook a thief and a bastard. and our govt and all the others have become robin hood. and then some but not all of the people are greedy, and i don't mean those that own companies, or the workers at those companies, i mean the greedy with thier handout asking for help, whether it is an bank, an auto company, a welfare mother who uses her reproductive organs like an atm machine, or the men who provide their deposits and then leave. the problem is created by worthless, unruly, lazy, letcherous nobody's who get all the assitance they need. screw the banks that ran their business bad, screw the auto comapnies that did, and the greedy union yes i mean that with all my heart. let them all fail and we rebuild now, instead of your kids rebuilding. and most of all screw uncle sam. the one's in washington that think they know what to do, their regulation broke this great experiment and it basically started with FDR. this has been coming for a long time and its due to happen. so to place the blame.......everyone that has gladly accepted what ever system they live in.and has ever participated in one govt program.and thought they deserved it just because they were born. life is given at birth liberty is a responsibilty the pursuit of happiness is just that. the pursuit. you may not achieve it all but you can pursue it, you have no god given right to it. its so simple yet based on so much responsibilty | ||
| J2blue |
I don't think anyone knows why or who to blame. America is an easy target because it has lead the global economy for so many decades now. Developing economies could not have grown at all over the past 20 years were it not for the huge capacity of America to consume. For the average American citizen too much of the consumption was acquired on credit for products of dubious value. That dubious part includes houses much larger than was ever really needed, toys of all kinds, clothing of ephemeral value, food in gluttonous quantities, and many others. Not just Americans, but all developed economies were involved in the orgy of consumption. Had the financial markets been more prudent about who to lend to the entire global economy would never have seen the growth that it has in the past few decades. Would that have been good or bad? I don't know, but I know I would have never had much of the "stuff" of life that has come my way during that time. I'm still learning a lot during this crisis. Blame probably isn't going to be helpful for getting out of it, either. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The reason that the US is at the center of the economic maelstrom is that America has, is, and will continue to be the best and brightest economic opportunity for the world. It wouldn't affect another country were that country's citizens, governments, and financial institutions invested heavily in the American Economy. You take the licks along with the profits. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I blame stock holders and the board of directors demanding "growth growth growth"...and the trickle down effect from that on everything you you do. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Buckinfubba: Umm yes thanks very much for the F-18's you kindly let the canadian gov't acquire. Our Leopard tanks are from Germany, as are the MB G-wagon vehicles that CDN drive around in. We make alot of our stuff too, guns, ships, radar, sonar, planes. Case in point about this being a U.S. manufactured economic virus is the whole collateralized debt obligations or CDO's that U.S. financial institutions like Bear Stearns would sell around the globe. These CDO's which comprised bundled packages of over leveraged U.S mortgages would then be given "AAA" bond status by the same financial institution that sold them without any government oversight. When people started defaulting on their mortgages, foreign investors who purchased these CDO's started to dump them and ultimately the whole house of cards starting falling globally. http://understory.ran.org/2008/09/23/financial-cri sis-101-what-happened-why-is-everyone-freaking-out / There is nothing wrong with hard work certainly. But pawning off CDO's to the global investment community as triple "A" securites doesn't really rate as hard work and getting ahead in my book. It's a fraud, a sham, a cheap circus trick designed to purposely deceive, so someone in some U.S. bank can get their bonus check. All thanks to corporate greed. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I blame stock holders and the board of directors demanding "growth growth growth"...and the trickle down effect from that on everything you you do. Do you own a mutual fund, a 401(k), an IRA? YOU are a shareholder. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Case in point about this being a U.S. manufactured economic virus is the whole collateralized debt obligations or CDO's that U.S. financial institutions like Bear Stearns would sell around the globe. These CDO's which comprised bundled packages of over leveraged U.S mortgages would then be given "AAA" bond status by the same financial institution that sold them without any government oversight. When people started defaulting on their mortgages, foreign investors who purchased these CDO's started to dump them and ultimately the whole house of cards starting falling globally. http://understory.ran.org/2008/09/23/financial-cri sis-101-what-happened-why-is-everyone-freaking-out / There is nothing wrong with hard work certainly. But pawning off CDO's to the global investment community as triple "A" securites doesn't really rate as hard work and getting ahead in my book. It's a fraud, a sham, a cheap circus trick designed to purposely deceive, so someone in some U.S. bank can get their bonus check. All thanks to corporate greed. The one missing component to your argument was the involvement of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. When they stepped in and agreed to back and buy these mortgages, it created a market for these bundles to be "pawned off" on the world. Up to that point, no one would buy them. The AAA rating came because investors were told that these mortgages were backed by the full faith and credit of the US Federal Government. When the note came due, the US Government defaulted on their promise. Do not discount Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's involvement. Had they not been central to the deal, there would have been no secondary market. Banks would have been forced to hold these sketchy loans in house because they wouldn't be able to sell them in the open market. Banks make the majority of their money from loan origination. They then sell these loans on the open market to generate cash to be able to originate NEW loans. Without the faux backing of the Federal government (via the CRA), this whole deal wouldn't have gotten off the ground. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
are these the same 'experts' that failed to see this inevitable down turn from occuring at all? Its all sheep and goat perception. Money is backed by nothing except the idea that it ought to be worth something. Realestate is a close third in that shenanigans, Investments being second only to currency. Any time Ma & Pa Kettle are jumpin on the band wagon... you know the circus is leaving town. The market would self correct if the f'n government would stay out of it, and CNN would quit reporting every stock fart like the sky is falling. | ||
| Aesquire |
Wall street journal says "less than 12" experts predicted this. Why do they listen to anyone else? I blame NY Senator Chuck Schumer. After sending a "warning" letter to a committee on banking he publishes it & causes a run on a CA bank, destroying it & precipitating the entire banking crisis. If you can blame Bush for everything, why not Chuck? A conspiracy nut would say it was part of a plan to deliberately trash the U.S. economy for the election. He might be right, between Chuck & C.Dodd, B. Frank, and the bozo's that thought the CDO's were a great way to get rich...and they were! For them. I certainly didn't. I'm a fool....and not rich enough to bribe Senators to get rich off your money, durn it. | ||
| Blake |
Who is to blame? Wrong question. Not "who", but rather "what". Ft_B nailed it. The waht boils down to our governments overzealous desire to get folks into their own homes. Good intent, but poor risk assessment led to disaster. | ||
| Jerseyguy |
Brian, You just reminded me why we instantly became friends back when Drummer was just starting up.  | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
I blame Rocketman.... | ||
| Buckinfubba |
thanks jersey and i have been reminded also. Great minds think alike. call it as it is and there is never a problem with the facts. unless ofcourse you wanna bleach a princess kisses a frog and it turns into a full blooded natural born man...ableit in every fairtale he looks a lil efeminate.hahahaha hey toronto what i meant was this, WE KEEP YOU SAFE. PERIOD. IF FOR SOME REASON THE DAY COMES , AND IT MIGHT , THAT SOME ONE INVADES YOU FOR YOUR OIL SUPPLY, WHO DO YOU THINK IS GONNA GO AND PROTECT YOUR BUTT!!! thats right we are just like we do every where else and we won't get thanks for it. did you ever think your proximity to this country has ever crossed the mind of any country that thought canada was a risk to invade? and also notice every post here, the most used word is....the government..... That is the problem, over educated stupid frat boys and soroity girls who just a few short years ago were parting it up and screwing each other on the old mans dime. when you don't or can't asses the value of something, you can not possibly understand how it got its value. yet they are the ones making decisions. Profit is good, to have an ego enough to open your own business, you must have greed in your heart. Greed to achieve at whatever level that is be it small or large. so does that make greed bad? if so then every one of us is damned to hell because the only reason we go to work every day is greed. we want money, we need money, we use money. the saying is not....money is the root of all evil.....it is the love of money is the root of all evil. so yes if money is what makes your soul rise you are definately in trouble. but if money buys you the freedom that allows you to pursue your joys then there is no evil. think of this....if we all got paid on production we would be better off, no more hourly, no more salary.. in other words, say you work at a factory and you have a quota of 100 widgets a day and above that you get a bonus pay. so you being a very effcient productive worker can get 100 in five hours. you can choose to go home if you like at this point. you just bought yourself freedom. 3 hours say. but the guy next to you takes evry break he is allowed, he makes mistakes and works slow. he takes 10 hours to get it done. so be it he stays til he's done or he no longer works. and if you chose to have more money your produce another 20 widgets and stay an extra hour and get bonus pay and still leave in 6 hrs. so would you rather have that or some stupid union that demands a certain wage whether you produce or not. just that you show up is enough. you tell me......what is a fair wage. | ||
| Etennuly |
"Somebody invades to take your oil"  Don't worry.....that will be US taking it!  No worries, no Canadian citizens will be harmed in the removal of said oil. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
as payback for sending us jim carey, loverboy, celine,bryan adams, and all those other canadian performers that had to leave their strict govt policys about recording and performing. they came here to make all their money with their product and then shit on us as greedy. neil can take his canadian ass back, whiny cry baby that he is. oh yeah again and for the protection they receive from our military. so yeah maybe we should invade and test that theroy of all their military might, you know give them a test run so to speak. maybe i am the ugly american. good so be it. I wear it well. we wouldn't need oil from other places btw, if we would use actual science and care more for the human race than we do. we have it, technology has improved drastically over the years. and show me an american that really wants an electric pick up truck to haul their stuff and pull their trailers and boats and such. and btw the auto makers now are backing a higher fuel tax, in order to force us to buy their fuel effcient cars that they are investing in and starting to build, so is our illustrious govt. you call that frredom, you call that ecomnic sound principals. the key word if FORCE, it doesn't belong in a country that is supposedly free. whether it be by gun or by wallett. we are dieing so fast because there is a good show on the tv tonight and hell american idol is on again, i don't have time to worry about what my govt is doing to me. the constitution did not give us our rights, they are inalienable. the constituion restricts govt's right against us. maybe we should all go back and read the constitution and declaration of independance. because independance is almost completely gone. if you listen to one soul on any network or one govt official and compledtely trust them you shall die. Blind faith in your leaders will always get you killed. as i said so simple yet so filled with responsiblity | ||
| Indybuell |
Congress forcing banks to lend to folks that couldn't afford it, followed by an incredible lack of oversight on quasi government agencies like Fannie and Freddie. If you ask me, everyone in congress should be put in jail. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Buckinfubba it's funny how many times I see guys like you touting crap on this board about how "if it wasn't for the USA the whole world would be communist" or some crap like that. Like the USA owns the world market on liberty and democracy. I don't know where you guys get that crap from. Your school system, your parents? Democracy and liberty and personal freedom are the status quo of the planet not the exception. Canada doesn't owe anything to the United States in that regard and to say that it does just demonstrates your ignorance of the subject. It's funny the way a lot of American's think Canada is this little kid brother sitting north of your boarder that needs protection. The fact of the matter is no country in the world would consider invading Canada for any reason because... --the country is well armed. --has a sophisticated communications system. --is geographically so large that no military force could ever occupy the whole thing. --has a well armed and motivated citizen population. No country would consider Canada a possible place to invade and control in the same way no country would consider invading Russia or China or India or the USA itself. It's not possible. Blake said that "poor risk assessment lead to disaster" and my question is who is to blame for this poor risk assessment. The U.S. gov't for not enforcing more oversight? The U.S. commercial banking system for not enforcing more oversight and standards on itself? My own personal opinion is that one or both of those entities through their own deregulation of commercial paper has created this mess. Lending standards went out the window as banks allowed people to over mortgage themselves without consideration for future ramifications. American commercial banks knowing full well that the commercial investment products were based on little more than the 'hope' that the U.S. real estate would continually rise, pooled and then pawned off these investments to international banks as AAA rated securities when in fact they were worth less than junk bonds. There was really no system in place for oversight. | ||
| Hootowl |
Actually, there is a system in place for oversight. It's called Congress. A few senators brought this to light and were roundly criticized for being fear mongers. The senators that are responsible for the oversight looked the other way because these organizations contribute vast sums of money to their campaigns. It makes me sick, but their constituents keep electing the same worthless bastards back into office. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What most folks fail to understand is the nature of "leverage". If you make $100,000 a year and can qualify for a house worth $200,000, your home loan has provided you a two to one annual income leverage. If your wages dropped to $50,000, you now have a four to one leverage. When you account for dropping house values and dropping incomes, the impact is multiplied and magnified negatively. It was a house of cards that had one level of leverage built upon another built upon another. | ||
| Texastechx1 |
Damn... looks like I'll have to put my bedazzler home buisness on hold...  Note: this thread is now ruined... sorry  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Damn. Just damn. | ||
| 86129squids |
TXtech-- LOL, thanks for some brevity. Times like this, I always think of the classic greek masks in theater, laughing or crying. We've been doing a lot of crying, and a cheap (emphasis on VALUE= cheap) laugh is nice every so often. Jeremy- love ya man, I sometimes worry about how much steam yer big ole noodle can take/give. I stand in awe and admiration- more power to ya. I'm not really qualified to speak on the subject at hand, but I sure hope, on the macro scale, we see an honest and sober retooling of our economy- both at home and abroad. I do advocate a new monument to be affixed on Wall Street, with an identical one placed at the Mall below the Washington memorial. Good old fashioned 19th century stocks, arranged round robin-like, one size fits all, for the criminals and crooked politicians who got us into this shiznit. Love to see Madoff breaking one in. For about a week before they throw him under the federal pen. Sorry about the thread hijaak- please continue, fine folks. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You will see more of what we saw in the 30's. Barter. You want to get rid of an XB and buy another bike? Find someone who wants to trade. No financing. Not taxes. You can't pay someone for the work you want done? Offer to give them something that they would use that money to purchase. You will see a resurgence in the gray economy. Higher taxes will drive even more business to ground within the gray economy. We as a people will overcome this, just like we did in the Great Depression. THAT is the big story. Not that the Depression happened but that we became MORE prosperous as a nation AFTER the Depression. In the end, I believe that we as a nation will realize that the real value is not in "stuff" but in the relationships we have one with another. I'm willing to lose a bunch of things that don't make me happy if it means that we are more integrated as a community. Would you forego buying a new big screen tv it if meant that you could help a neighbor? Now you and your neighbor are closer and have a more meaningful relationship. How many times do you drive your car into your garage walk out and get your mail out of the box and wave at your neighbor and walk away? Jeremy- love ya man, I sometimes worry about how much steam yer big ole noodle can take/give. I stand in awe and admiration- more power to ya. You need to get out more. I just spent three days with the really smart people in the financial industry. My assessment was that, in their presence, I was dumb as a bag of hammers. | ||
| 86129squids |
Yeah- I do need to get out more. Barring that, I'm reacqainting myself with things within my house. Too damn cold right now. Very interesting point about the barter system. Things that have been tried and proven true- bartering, the abacus- may have more use in the near future. I know little about either, but they seem much simpler than the mess we're in now. | ||
| Aesquire |
Canada is a great country. I disagree with some of their policies, but they were smart enough to see that when they jacked cigarette taxes up too high, they lost revenue. So they, in a move U.S. politicians would be aghast at, lowered the tax....& revenues increased. That's smart politicians! Video is available on youtube of Senator Dodd, & company bitching out the Federal regulator who was testifying that the Fannie/Freddie guys had issues they were lying about. He has told that HE should be investigated...by Senators getting bribes from the people they are supposed to be regulating. Yep, they are still in office. This one is a cut & paste, and biased. ( still, it's true ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg These guys are to blame. ( Dodd, Pelosi, etc.} They also blame "the market" and their political enemies, and claim to be the only "hope" for the solution to the problem they caused, by their own actions. Also you can blame the guys who made Debt profitable, changed the rules on short selling, etc. Some of the blame rests squarely on the Bush administration. The rest, I still blame Chuck Schumer. This one will just torque you off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature =related There are plenty of regulations. They just lied, stole & broke them. In simple terms, these %^&%$ who say stuff like "No Economic Recovery Until 2015" don't know diddle about anything but CYA. If they are so smart, the problems would not have happened. Greed on the part of the banks & traders figures in, but the BLAME should go to Congress. & we failed to fire them, again. Besides, doesn't the Mayan calender end in 2012? So, don't worry about the recovery in 2015. Hey, it's as good an indicator as an economist's opinion. (Message edited by aesquire on January 14, 2009) | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
It took WWII to banish the Great Depression to the dustbin of history. I can't barter my mortgage away. We are not in a depression. |
