| Author | Message | ||
     Johntman |
been there been sprayed by OC. Blake I'll take you up on your offer, but you won't like the results. | ||
| Blake |
interesting commentary from another police officer...
The fact that the stuff has been banned in some states and cities and has been listed in conjunction with dozens of deaths would lead one to surmise that it is potent stuff. | ||
| Blake |
John, why do you imagine I'd not like the results? | ||
| Blake |
"I like things that are simple, I can train with all the time, and always work when I need them to. " And those "things" would be what? | ||
| Ezblast |
I want to see this!  Show us on You-Tube! EZ | ||
| Corporatemonkey |
As usually Bill's comments were spot on.  Blake, I was a little hesitant to mention this but I have first hand experience with police pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. If you remember the 1999 Seattle WTO incident. I live right in the middle of where it took place. At the time I worked about 5 blocks away, and had to get home. The police had issued a no compromise curfew. As I was making my way up the street, past the turned over cars, past the burning garbage dumpsters, past the broken store windows, in front of my building was a small (<35) group aggressively resisting the police. Well in an attempt to gain entry to my building (at this point I was in shear terror) I was mistaken as a protester. I assume the police were thinking I was trying to vandalize my building. Well a good shot of pepper spray to the head was not an experience I want to relive. I also got shot twice with rubber bullets. Luckily they were from behind into my backpack. I can tell you with the force they hit me with I can't image being hit on bare skin. The pepper spray took a moment to kick in, and you are right it absolutely horrible. But at that point I am surprised I didn't take the door off the hinges to get inside. Adrenaline made me get inside at any cost. The spray DID NOT stop me. When I got into my apartment, I doused my entire face with a gallon of milk. It was unreal. Later that evening another group of protesters showed up, and they were attempting to overturn a nice BMW 750. The police moved in and released tear gas grenades. Of course that got sucked into the building, and all the residents here suffered. The tear gas felt like you had swallowed sand paper. That stuck around for a good hour. Not one of my better memories.  And if anyone is curious, I am not upset at the police. I saw the look on the officers face, he was just as terrified as me. Here is a basic youtube video that shows what it was like (turn down the volume as the sound sucks.) | ||
| Johntman |
I am a police officer, and I was sprayed at the academy, so I am talking from first hand experience. It effects different people differently. It did make me close my eyes but it was only after about 15 seconds. I didn't have any problems breathing, though some did. It did burn my face and make my nose run, but I PROMISE you that if i was attacking you and you sprayed me it would only tick me off and you'd get your butt kicked! But Tasers! now that's another story no one is immune from electricity! shows a guy fighting though it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMNRUmmNwHw but he also fights through a couple of gun shots too! | ||
| Johntman |
Blake, You would not like the results because it WILL not incapacitate me. and within the 15 seconds it takes before my eyes close I WILL get my hands on you, and like I said you will not like the results.  | ||
| Blublak |
Blake - Pepper Spray has NEVER killed anyone. It's not toxic (it just seems to be for a while), never has been. Some jokers mixed it with DM and that made for some major problems but I won't go into it. Suffice it to say that the supposed deaths 'caused' by OC were usually found to actually be caused by a few other things. One, injuries sustained before being restrained. Two, Other chemical agents introduced either on the scene or afterwords. Three, positional asphyxia. Lastly - If OC was toxic. Tons of people would be dropping dead all the time, after all, the active ingredient in true OC is PEPPER.. really.. Nuff Said. John, please don't threaten Blake..  after all, he's a Texan and I'm sure your not his type.. So we know neither of you would like the results.. (sorry, just had to type it).. | ||
| Bads1 |
Best thing you could have is a great dog. As far as taser's?? Like you said John. It effects people differently. I know a girl that took it 7 times before she was down. Take 7 sprays to the eyes and see if thats bad enough to to put you down. I got sprayed point blank by mace about 15 years ago within 10 inches of my face. It was painful and I'd rather forget it ever happened. | ||
| Johntman |
Blublak no threats on my part  I know he not my type! He's not a woman is he? And you are right! neither one of us would really like the results.  | ||
| Blake |
"and within the 15 seconds it takes before my eyes close I WILL get my hands on you" Typical internet tough guy, knows ZERO about the person he is so sure of dominating, yet somehow is so sure he can do so. My offer stands. Anytime. Just let me know in advance so I can go purchase some good pepper spray and arrange for the videographer and plenty of beer, you'll most likely be needing it. | ||
| Blake |
Dana, High strength pepper spray is a whole new level of hurtin' compared to mace. | ||
| Johntman |
Nope not a typical internet tough guy. We'll need plenty of beer! we'll both need it!  I speak from experience! | ||
| Blake |
"shows a guy fighting though it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMNRUmmNwHw " Police car dash cams don't normally pan and zoom on their own. Methinks that video was staged. Who knows about the story.
Apparently a wussy of a grizzly bear. (Message edited by Blake on December 31, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
Oh, you said "beer". Never mind.  | ||
| Johntman |
I bow out to your know it all! Yes OC spray will incapacitate everyone sprayed, it has killed a few people, and apparently grizzly bears don't like it. By the way that video is authentic. It was also on TRU TV on the same episode where the deputy that I did work at was shot in the face. I know not what I'm talking about! Your sand box!  | ||
| Johntman |
Did someone say "beer"?  | ||
| P_squared |
"I like things that are simple, I can train with all the time, and always work when I need them to. " And those "things" would be what? I can't go givin away ALL my 'secrets' Blake, but I do treat my clip knife like American Express & never leave home without it. If you frequently wear an overgarment that covers the belt, an ASP & good light (e.g. Surefire) are also good to have. These are simple tools that you can practice with anytime in your own home/backyard, & possibly even at work (DAMHIK maids get 'spooked' when they catch you practicing how to draw different 'objects' concealed upon your body). Why I always carry a knife: I know in 21' or less of distance, I can cut you before you can get a shot off. If you're farther than 21' away from me, I'm increasing the distance between us (evade/find cover/gain time to employ other 'goodies'). I had a good friend once demonstrate how to distract an attacker with an umbrella & those cardboard coasters from a bar. If you put your mind to it, a LOT of things can be a weapon, offensive or defensive. It all depends on the person who wants to carry them & is prepared to use them if needed. The only simple 'rules' I follow for my personal protection: 1) Can I carry it frequently without causing 'trouble'? 2) Will it work EVERY time I use it? 3) Can I use it proficiently? 4) Can I keep my skills sharp with it by regular practice? Spray & Stun/Tasers don't meet #2 & 4 for me based on my experiences. Therefore I don't carry them. Now if a local LEO department was willing to foot the bill for supplying me with them on a regular basis so I could train regularly with them, I might change my mind. I don't see that happening anytime soon, so I'll stick with what I know works for me. A weapon is useless if you can't use it properly. A weapon is extremely dangerous to you if the Tango(s) know how to use it better than you & can get it away from you. If you can't practice w/ what you plan to carry, then you probably shouldn't carry it, 'cuz Murphy will poke his head in when you need his attention the least. That's my experience & everyone else's may be different. | ||
| Dynasport |
I don't like weighing in on these kinds of discussions, as people normally have opinions that are not easily swayed and I feel it is a often a waste of time. However, I was trained as a non-lethal weapon instructor at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. While that does not make me an expert, I do think I know more about this subject than the average person. It has been my experience that OC spray works on most people, but not everyone. Part of my training required getting sprayed myself and then fighting through the pain and effecting an arrest. It is possible. I held one eye open with one hand and held my gun on the suspect with the other. Some of my classmates were not able to effect the arrest properly and some seem minimally impacted by the OC spray. To be clear, we were sprayed at close range by an instructor directly into the eyes with the nastiest stuff available. I was in pain for a couple of days whenever I showered or otherwise rewet the area. Tasers are not perfect either, however, depending on the clothing the target is wearing. If successfully engaged, however, I have never seen anyone "fight through it" like I have with OC spray. As far as batons go, proper training goes a long way toward effective usage. Batons require more training than OC does and require closer proximity for engagement. All of these non-lethal weapons can be extremely effective. They require varying degrees of training and are not 100% effective depending on the circumstances. So, what do I carry? Normally a baton and a Glock. I don't want OC spray blowing back into my face or getting on my hands and transferring it to my own eyes by accident. My agency has not approved Tasers for our carry, or I might carry one of those. I feel fairly confident of my ability to employ my baton, though, but if ever faced with a situation where my baton does not seem enough, knowing I have a Glock on hand gives me a level of comfort. Off duty, however, I rarely carry either. That is my personal choice, however. I support each person's right to make their own choices. | ||
| Johntman |
notice the same voice in both videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEpUtoUzE4U | ||
| Corporatemonkey |
Since we have had several LEO's respond to my question (thanks BTW), and I have seen two recommendations for baton brands, which would you choose (cost is not an issue). Asp? Or Schrade? I noticed Asp makes a "lightweight" aluminum version, doesn't that defeat the purpose? | ||
| Johntman |
I would say asp... and they make several ad ons you may want to look at... lights and end caps... to ad to you carrying pleasures! | ||
| Bads1 |
Blake what I got sprayed with 15 years ago isn't legal now and it wasn't legal then. It screwed my eyes up but good. Pepper Spray is legal. Thats my understanding of it anyways. Years ago I guess postal workers were using it on dogs. Evidently it was hurting dogs long term and it was banned. If its going to injure dogs long term it would do the same to people .... yes. Also John is right. I was talking to one of my bartenders husbands. They on the sheriff's department have all took a healthy dose in the eyes with Pepper Spray.... every last officer. | ||
| Hardcorps |
The Baton that we carry has one problem. Only the last part is made of metal. A fellow officer deployed his on a very large subject that was probably juiced up on steroids. The out come was that the baton bent. Need to clarify, the baton became inoperable, because the plasitic pieces no longer lined up giving the appearence that it was bent. I have also seen our batons get all messed up breaking out a window of a car. The only reason I put that up there is if you are going to buy one on-line just make sure that you know what material the entire baton is made out of. Our baton is some off brand, I don't even carry mine on duty any more. | ||
| Hardcorps |
Blake, I would take you up on your offer, but it will take more than beer to be broadcast over the internet. Don't get me wrong, I never said that Pepper spray was not painful, it is just not incapacitating. Since this subject has came up I have talked to every one on my shift, and they all have similar opinions about pepper spray. This is one of those senseless internet arguments to provoke others. (my dad is bigger than your dad) I agree with several of the statements above about training and being comfortable using what you have. If you don't know how to use it, or your not comfortable it will probably hurt you more. | ||
| Blake |
Maybe our understanding of the meaning of "incapacitate" is different. Sounds like you are thinking that it means "to knock out or render helpless." My understanding is that it means "to deprive of strength or ability; disable." I think Dynasport did a good job of explaining and summarizing the issue. No self defense weapon is 100%. Someone wearing eyeglasses is protected from the direct blast of pepper spray. Now, in the interest of continued argument, ... How is it that the supposedly authentic police dash cam video includes various panning and zooming activity? Does it have some kind of sensor that allows it to always point/focus on the officer? Psquared, Can you please elaborate? The following sounds over teh top incredible: "Why I always carry a knife: I know in 21' or less of distance, I can cut you before you can get a shot off. " Someone 21' away has a gun pointed at you and you can attack them with a knife before they can shoot you? Can we use a paint-ball gun and a rubber knife and do a youtube video of that scenario? It might be more successful than the pepper spray one. Yes, you can have beer afterwards too. I always carry a knife on account of it comes in handy for cutting stuff. Not directed at anyone here. Have you ever run accross folks that are obsessed with "self-defense" and who seem to be itching for a chance to put in use their particular mode/tool. Michele, my wife, was on the jury for one such individual who was in a big hurry to use his treasured .45 to "defend" himself. This in Texas mind you. After shooting an unarmed man three times including once in the back--his army Ranger training supposedly taught him to continue shooting until the enemy is dead--he'll be spending the next decade in prison. Not near long enough in my view, but it took three juries to finally get a verdict and sentence on the case. I don't know what the heck everyone is so afraid of. Women need to be able to defend/protect themselves from rapists and the like, but really, what are y'all afraid of and where the heck are you spending time where you are so concerned about people attacking you? It's foreign to me. Seriously, take away the domestic violence, drunken duals of egos, the gang-on-gang violence, and the random drive-by shootings, and what is left? Muggings and car jackings and rapes, yes? Okay, if you are a woman, you absolutely ought to be able to dissuade an attacker; rape is unfortunately a real threat. That leaves muggings and car jackings. A serious mugger isn't going to stand 21' away yelling threats, is he. He's going to ambush you from behind and "incapacitate" you before you know what hit you and he may be working with an accomplice. You'll have no chance to defend yourself if the muggers' plan falls into line. No? I sure hope the policemen here--I appreciate all of you!--will weigh in on this issue of self defense, cause I don't think a baton is going to help when the mugger has ambushed you and already hit you over the head with his baton and knocked you to the ground in a stupor. What kind of situations are some of y'all putting yourselves into where self defense is such a heightened concern for you? Is it worth it? If it takes changing your preferred social hangout from Stinky's Biker Bar & Drug Dealing Depot to Cheers, I'd strongly urge you to do so. Moral of the story for me is, again, if threat of personal attack is a significant and real risk in your neighborhood, find a different/better neighborhood in which to live. Or... when you go out for a walk, wear body armor and a helmet. All that said, if some fool is brazen enough to break into my home while I am there, the quibbling will end and the 12 ga will be employed. | ||
| Blake |
Hardcorps, "I would take you up on your offer, but it will take more than beer to be broadcast over the internet. What else then? Please realize that you are possibly shunning great fame.  (Message edited by Blake on December 31, 2008) | ||
| Pammy |
I caught a mugger once...without a weapon(thank goodness he didn't have one either). It was in New Jersey, in an alley, outside of a casino....A pissed off woman is way scarier than ALL your scenerios. Ha Ha  | ||
| Pammy |
I had to chase him almost a whole block. Lucky for me(and the mugged), he was wearing typical thug-wear and his pants were loose. |
