| Author | Message | ||
     Xl1200r |
duc - I don't think a moral downfall is out of the question, and another civil war is entirely possible. But the way this guy thinks the country will break up is absurd. | ||
| Kyrocket |
Does this mean we, in Kentucky, can put up road blocks to keep the Buckeye Brigade out of our waterways?  Somehow I don't think Bubba is going to go for this European Union thing. We do, as a nation, need a good economic and political house cleaning for sure. That will happen long before we have takeovers or any political influence in my opinion. On an upnote, the news reported that there were less and less illegals jumping the border. Guess I'll have to keep mowing my own grass and cleaning my own toilet. | ||
| Brumbear |
hey I 'll be in the EU my money will be worth more I'll have socialized medecine and get 6 weeks off a year that just sucks | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Greg, I don't discount THAT a major conflict inside this country is possible, but I do discount the manner in which this Russian describes it happening. I do believe that a reckoning is coming. The problem is that the water in this country has been brought to boil slowly. Most Americans are asleep at the switch because the changes to our country have been incremental. I believe that the present economic climate provides the framework for radical changes in American society as provided by the Federal Government. I believe these changes could be significant and sufficient to create a groundswell of concern, resistance, and public outcry. As an example, universal healthcare, as it's been presented, will be more expensive and more far reaching than as presented to the American public. Considering that NO provision for securing the borders has even been discussed, the draw to the US from south of the border will be even stronger than before. These factors will place a two fold pressure on the American society, immigration pressures from a labor and public services standpoint and tax pressures from the rising costs in support of universal healthcare. We have seen this in TN. We had universal healthcare version 1.0. We ended up going from 7% of the population being uninsured and on some form of public assistance to 29% of the population of TN. A large percentage were illegal aliens. A significant number were from bordering states. Many were simply folks who could afford coverage but chose to attach themselves to the public tit. Gun control will become a significant issue as well. Taxes will be a major issue. The $250,000+ umbrella is a farce. Everyone's taxes will increase regardless of whether it's a direct tax or an indirect tax. YOU WILL BE PAYING MORE IN TAXES. PERIOD. At what point does the American people say "enough". We can do better in offshoring. Our corporate tax structure guarantees that the impetus to outsource jobs remains high. There is no incentive to cause a company to keep jobs here. There IS an incentive to cause companies to outsource jobs. That needs to change. Currently, these changes are not even on the board. The support provided to the unions by the abolition of the secret ballot process will make establishing unions easier but will further incentivise outsourcing. Companies that can will simply state that if you unionize, we will shut the plant down and outsource all the jobs. Unless there are major changes in this country, we are looking at the waning years of our nation. We have taken our values, our protections, our status, and our nation for granted for far too long. We are at risk of losing it all. Oddly, the potential salvation of our nation rests with Maw and Paw Kettle in the Red States in the center of the country who have never abandoned the faith in keeping the principles and beliefs of our founding fathers alive. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
When the going gets tough, he says, wealthier states will withhold funds from the federal government and effectively secede from the union. Am I the only one that sees this statement to mean that Panarin really doesn't know that much about the USA? Don't individuals and businesses pay federal taxes directly to the federal government? Doesn't the federal government then give states money based on federal programs? What federal funds do the states collect that they could withhold? I do agree that we are not immune to the possibility of collapse, but this guy is way out there..... | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
This thread has more traction then I expected. | ||
| Skully |
+1 Jeremy (Ft_bstrd)! I can assure you that us Texans are not about to go down without a BIG fight! Anyone believing differently is in for a surprise. Keith | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Oddly, the potential salvation of our nation rests with Maw and Paw Kettle in the Red States in the center of the country who have never abandoned the faith in keeping the principles and beliefs of our founding fathers alive. I'd like to agree with this, but these are the same people who gave us 8 years of GWB. Why oh why didn't they pick McCain (or most anybody else) to be their candidate in 2000? (Rhetorical question - not looking to hijack the thread) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Maw and Paw Kettle voted for the individual who best typified what they felt was that principle. Knowing then what I know now, I'd have made the same decision. Twice. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on December 30, 2008) | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
So,in your opinion, GWB was a better choice in 2000 than McCain and had Florida gone differently would have still been a better choice in '04? | ||
| Oldog |
+1 what Ft_B said. I dont disagree about some of the decay of morals, the thing is that the change is more world wide than not. I am ready to see washington held accountable for its decisions, and I hope that our culture may change for the better. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
So,in your opinion, GWB was a better choice in 2000 than McCain and had Florida gone differently would have still been a better choice in '04? Yes. McCain wasn't my choice in 08 either. McCain isn't a conservative. He is what would have been a Democrat in the 70's and 80's. An 00 loss for Bush would have provided a different set of options for 04. Were there a more conservative option than McCain in 04, I'd have picked that option. I voted against McCain in 00 and would still do it again. Given the choice between McCain and Obama, Maw and Paw Kettle voted McCain. So did I. | ||
| Swordsman |
Did you notice the map indicated Texas will be influenced by or under the control of Mexico? That alone is enough information to debunk his hypothesis, since Texas could probably kick Mexico's ass all by itself. Dude needs to hit the books a little harder before cooking up wild theories. Honestly, I can't see the US ever having another civil war. Civil unrest, certainly, but not state governments raising arms against the Federal government. Given that no one believes in their government leaders anymore (state or federal), I could definitely see some violent protesting on the horizon if things get much worse. ~SM | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Honestly, I can't see the US ever having another civil war. Civil unrest, certainly, but not state governments raising arms against the Federal government. Especially after all the weapons are confiscated. Are you aware of the proposed assault weapons ban for 2009? http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:1:./tem p/~c110crzibB:e873: | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Honestly, I can't see the US ever having another civil war. Civil unrest, certainly, but not state governments raising arms against the Federal government. Especially after all the weapons are confiscated. Are you aware of the proposed assault weapons ban for 2009? Sorry, I did not read the proposal and the link did not work, but unless the feds are taking weapons away from the State's National Guard, your point is unrelated to the Swordsman's point. | ||
| M2nc |
I think some here underestimate the forces needed to change people's direction. The Soviet Union collapsed because it could not compete with the rest of the world and it's political structure was not backed by the majority of the people. Though you could attach some similarities between the US today and the USSR of the 1980s, we are no where close to being in the same shape as Russia was then. Back in the 1980s thousands of Russians did not have food to eat. The state run stores were empty. It did not matter if you had money, there was nothing to buy. In contrast today our agricultural economy is as healthy as ever. Recent increases in food prices has made farming profitable again and we are still the biggest producer of food in the world. Back in the 1980s, countries that were under Soviet influence were breaking away and strong foreign influence from the west was pulling the Soviet empire apart. It would benefit no one in the world for the US to fall apart and if anything countries like China will continue to buy our debt to keep us as their biggest customer. The situation today proves more than ever that the collapse of the US would put the entire world in dire financial shape and would probably lead to WWIII in the power vacuum. Our banking wows bankrupted other nations and almost pulled the EU apart. If you combined all the armed forces of EU it would only fair moderately better than Iraq did the first time around against an Armed Force as advanced as that of the US. We are a stabilizing force in the world even with our blunders in Iraq. It is the main reason most of our enemies hate us and most of our friends envy us. We are the top dog and it doesn't matter who the top dog is, the rest resent it. But a world suddenly left without the US armed forces to balance it would go straight into war. Russia would try to claim lost lands from the old Soviet days. China would also go into land grab, taking Taiwan, South East Asia and probably attack Japanese interest in the region. The Korean war would become active again. Muslim radicals would attack Israel, central Africa and southeastern Europe. The remaining western world would be powerless against such a strong move from the east. No, it would be in no one's interest to see the US fall and no political power would even attempt to help it along. As a nation this has been nothing more than a strong wind. We have been through much worse. Today is nothing more than a much needed adjustment bring prices back down where the masses can afford them. Housing was out of sight in many parts of this nation. How can any family of average wage afford a 1600sqft house on a 1/2 acre plot in a modest neighborhood for over $500K? I saw the writing on the wall twenty years ago and move to the south east where I could buy a family home with an average salary and my house payment is still less than my last rent I paid in Cincinnati. Property values here only took a modest dip but this house is still worth more than what I paid for it eleven years ago. We are far from the Category five hurricane need to pull this country apart. It takes severe conditions to force a major change of the people and I do not see it yet. Even with everything happening today, 46% of the voters wanted to stay the Republican course and not change anything politically. I see methodical change toward socialism over the next decade. We have to do something about health care. We have to do something about protecting American workers. We have to do something about our political system that allows the rich an uneven access to the government. All true but only a wishful thinking former KGB agent would believe we are anywhere close to self-destruction. | ||
| Buellerthanyou |
I'm thinking that the citizens of this country would more likely support a revolution against the (largely unconstitutional) federal government than a civil war among themselves. Of course, after any revolution, there is always a big danger of factionalization and civil war as the revolutionaries (provided they prevail) struggle to put together the new government. Fortunately, in our case, there is already a terrific model to follow in the present Constitution of the United States of America (which has been largely ignored by the federal government since, at least, F.D.R.). There is even room for tweaking it so that it better reflects modern life/economic factors in the U.S.; the Amendments. In any case, I think the Russkie greatly underestimates the pride that we feel in our country, even when our "government" does stupid stuff.     HellBuelly J "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson P.S. I REALLY like the Constitution! Can you tell?  Get your "free" copy here: http://www.constitutionfacts.com/index.cfm?section =bookstore&page=bookstore.cfm or here: https://secure.heritage.org/firstPrinciples/pocket constitution.aspx or just read it online here: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolutio n/us-constitution.htm P.P.S. This is funny: BILL OF NO RIGHTS The following was written by State Representative Mitchell Kaye from Cobb County, GA. We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid anymore riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great grandchildren hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden, delusional and other bed wetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident that a whole lot of people were confused by the bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights. ARTICLE I You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything. ARTICLE II You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full if idiots, and probably always will be. ARTICLE III You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy. ARTICLE IV You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes. ARTICLE V You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care. ARTICLE VI You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be suprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair. ARTICLE VII You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be suprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen TV or a life of leisure. ARTICLE VIII You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we don't not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat. ARTICLE IX You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful. ARTICLE X You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights."  | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Great post M2, what I do differ with is; Even with everything happening today, 46% of the voters wanted to stay the Republican course and not change anything politically. 46% did not want Obama to be president, but a large majority of them, and the vast majority of Americans, do want change. Can anybody tell that I am bored today?  | ||
| Oldog |
Today is nothing more than a much needed adjustment bring prices back down where the masses can afford them. Housing was out of sight in many parts of this nation. How can any family of average wage afford a 1600sqft house on a 1/2 acre plot in a modest neighborhood for over $500K? You can see this happening in a lot of places the stock market is incrementaly inching down, a point (%) or two a day, Rents are starting to fall here In wilmington,} I'm hoping to get into a place here with a garage soon at a resonable rent. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
46% did not want Obama to be president, but a large majority of them, and the vast majority of Americans, do want change. Yes, but 46% didn't believe that Obama represented the change they wanted. Or are you saying that 46% of the population are just racist bigots? | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Yes, but 46% didn't believe that Obama represented the change they wanted. Agreed. Or are you saying that 46% of the population are just racist bigots? Huh? Shame on you Fat, I never said or implied anything deserving such a comment! | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Hey, it doesn't look so bad... I like Mexican food and taking naps in the afternoon. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I'm just asking. I wanted to make sure I wasn't reading anything between the lines. You seemed to imply that 46% of voters wanted change but were willing to vote against that change in order to prevent Obama from getting into office. I wanted to make sure I wasn't reading that wrong. | ||
| Swampy |
Fatty is right. You are getting sleepy......sleepy......sleepy | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
No, no, no..... both candidates campaigned heavily to be seen as the candidate of change because the vast majority of Americans want change. I was only correcting M2's implication that voters who voted for McCain did not want change. | ||
| Stoked |
Our country is too big and needs to break up. I wish it would break up along ideological lines. There are two distinct ideological groups in this country that would be better off separated. There is also a giant group that is clueless and call themselves independents. It would be great if the country split and you had to choose a side. That way independents would be forced to get a clue and choose. A 4 way split would be best because right now we are just to big to have any control over our govt and the govt is not able to regulate effectively where it should be regulating. In this giant environment neither the left wing (socialist style) will work due to an inability of control, nor the right wing(capitalist style) due to inability to regulate. But, I know how devastating it would be and likely not be non-violent. So for that reason I hope it doesn't. I wish there was an easy way. But I'm sick of arguing and witnessing all the arguing between the two. I hate seeing the schools teaching kids what to think instead of how to think. Every aspect of our life is geared towards the battle between the two main sides and I'm sick of it. The schools battle for the left while the radio battles for the right. The left is winning right now as they usually do because for some reason socialist have always been better at controlling the media and govt institutions children are a part of. I guess that reason is it's part of their ideology. But the right always has its bright spots because finally people get tired of being bs'd for too long and rebel. But it never lasts for long. I just wish the country would split. Agree to disagree, split it up and let each side rule itself. I can't imagine the circumstances that would allow this to happen or the method leaders would be chosen by for it to happen. I think this Russian professor completely over estimates the power of our states to be organized enough to trigger this type of event. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Gotcha, but I don't believe that Carlos was stating that the folks who voted for McCain were voting against Republican/Conservative principles. They were voting for McCain and against a third Bush term. Two totally different things. If asked, the folks who voted for McCain would still line up strongly with the traditional values held by the Republican party and by conservatives. You can see some of this evidenced by the initial ground swell at the addition of Palen. Palen was less experienced but not inexperienced. She had a hell of a hatched job performed on her, and the McCain camp blew it by not letting her be herself. The support for her traditional conservative views was what remained even in light of the questions about her ability to perform the role of Vice President. To circle back, "change" for Maw and Paw Kettle DID NOT mean walking away from traditional conservative/Republican values. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said/are saying about McCain voters. as far as Carlos goes, I am going by his words: not change anything politically. He did not say anything about changing traditional values, he spoke of political change. Both candidates spoke of how they would change politics. I will reserve my right to disagree that Ma and Pa know what is best for the country and offered up the last 8 years as proof that they do not. Obviously you disagree and I fully accept that. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't believe the end result would be a fractured Un-united States. I believe the end result would be the hitting of a "big red reset button " with regard to the Federal Government, State's Rights, Taxation, and Federalist Governance. When we lost State's rights we began the slide to where we are and where we will go. The "big red reset button" will return the control to the states and reduce the control of the Federal Government. We, as the electorate, had much more control when we could travel the 100 miles necessary to lay siege to the state house of representatives and the Governor's mansion and demand that our voices be heard. Now, we send an email. Not quite the same effect, is it? The President, the Senators, the Representatives should be TERRIFIED of the people. It's time to reinstate the seizure of personal assets by the people for offenses committed while performing the elected duties. Stevens of AK should have his house and property seized by the state of Alaska for abdication of duties and treason against the state. Rangel should have his properties confiscated by the state of New York. They should both lose their office, their Federal Pensions, their personal property, and be publicly humiliated in the streets. Republicans defending Stevens should be ashamed. Democrats defending Rangel should be ashamed. If there were actionable evidence that Bush had abdicated his responsibilities and could be impeached, I'd furnish the pitchforks and torches. We as a people are far too tolerant of the corruption that exists in Washington. We are too concerned about forgiving the sins of our "team" in order to inflict damage to the other side. We should, and will, stand side by side in anger, disgust, and fury in wielding righteous justice at those responsible for subjugating the freedoms and greatness of our nation for the paltry transient personal gains to our leaders and their personal interests. There will be blood in the streets. In the end, we WILL have freedom. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I will reserve my right to disagree that Ma and Pa know what is best for the country and offered up the last 8 years as proof that they do not. I disagree that Ma and Pa know what is best for the country. I agree that they didn't get what they voted for. I offer up the last 8 years as proof. I'd offer up the first 4 years under Gore and the last 4 years under Kerry as proof that they DO know what they are doing. |
