| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
Nick, that wasn't directed at you specifically, I know you were quoting. | ||
| Alchemy |
The 150 was doing well early in the year. When 2008 is over and the final numbers are tallied it will be interesting to see the final numbers and the trends. The 150 was leading early in the year. http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/05/0519_top_s ellers/index_01.htm | ||
| Ted |
um, the rescue package is a loan (with an OPTION of stock ownership) , so wouldnt there be an expectation of repayment? its not like a 'loan' to Tongo where you'd never see the cash again. calm down the reds arent at the gate yet. | ||
| Xbduck |
First, this is not a "bail-out" it is a loan. Next, with out time HD would not have come out from under. I see this loan as a gift of time to do just that. I believe a number of the lines American cars are made on are in need of refitting. The US auto makers don't have the line flexibility that the others in the industry have. Now as to legacy cost, where would you stand if it were your retirement benefits that everyone was looking at cutting. Right now everyone is swatting at the flies and bitching about them instead of cleaning up the s&!t they are rising from. In other words I haven't seen anyone look deep enough into the problem. We MUST find a way to create social responsibility with in the corporate world. I for one do not know how, though I do seem to be thinking of it more and more. For those who might ask, no I do not think social responsibility equals Socialism. However GREED can no longer be the sole driving factor in business. If it continues to be then Karl Marx will be right. | ||
| Xbduck |
Just another thought, as I remember it, (from the teachings in college), the management style of the 50's and 60's had much more holistic approach. I did think that if you tied the CEO's salary to the lowest paid workers as a percentage above, there might be more consideration of those working under them. (Message edited by xbduck on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Glitch |
They've been failing for years. More money without re-organization will only buy a little bit of time. | ||
| Nxtr |
I can’t say it enough... "Make the CEO's cosign for the loan which puts their personal net worth on the line, I bet there would be a lot more attention paid to how the corporations were run..." I have purchased American autos in the past, (albeit junk for the price paid) if greed, legacy costs or whatever was the driving force for their demise then so be it, file for bankruptcy and reorganize... By the way I am a small business owner, I employ 23 people, and with the economy the way it is, and forced increases in minimum wage (which I start my employees at $1 above), I am not making enough to be successful and may have to lay off some of my workers. So I plead with all of you that feel that government intervention is a good thing, let's skip the middle man, and feel free to PM me so I can send you my PayPal info and you can make a donation to my struggle to keep the American worker employed and keep the American Dream Alive... V/R, Nick (Message edited by nxtr on December 19, 2008) (Message edited by nxtr on December 19, 2008) (Message edited by nxtr on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Nationalize em, put em on the GS government pay scale, give em the same health benefits as Congress and call it done. Get rid of brand redundancies, trim the fat, put the one year wonder cars (the prototypes and concept cars) out to auction. And maybe revisit that the New cars every year need to be redesigned to get people to buy them. Seems like they are monkeying with the models every year just for styling and the retooling cost for new parts ? wtf | ||
| Xl1200r |
I love how often the "reorginzation" flag gets waived. GM is the largest automaker in the world by sales numbers, and they have the majority market share in every single major market except for Japan (where the larget import brand has a whopping 1.5% market share). Next in line by volume is Toyota, then Nissan-Reanult, then VW group. GM employes LESS people than any of them. You read that right. The most sales comes from the company with the 4th most amount of people. Does stuff need to change? Sure - no matter how good something is, it can always be better. Does it need to major, in terms of how Big 3 management functions? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of reasons why these guys are in trouble, many of which are out of their control. All of the doomsday sayers can rest thier voiceboxes for a while. A lot of companies have come back from a lot worse conditions. The fat lady has yet to sing. | ||
| Xbduck |
I liked what Popular Science wrote on a number of years ago. Make a simple floorboard powertrain combination that people could customize with a GM or Chrystler or Ford or ....., body bolted right on top. One powertrain system for the cars and one for the trucks. Most of the bigger trucks are build this way now. With the cab and frame mostly stock you just add whatever box or bed or whatever you want on the back. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Nationalize em, put em on the GS government pay scale, give em the same health benefits as Congress and call it done. Get rid of brand redundancies, trim the fat, put the one year wonder cars (the prototypes and concept cars) out to auction. And maybe revisit that the New cars every year need to be redesigned to get people to buy them. Seems like they are monkeying with the models every year just for styling and the retooling cost for new parts ? wtf City, no offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about. When GM killed Oldsmobile, they figured most customers would to move to Buick or Cadillac. That wasn't the case, and they lost a big chunk of buyers to other manufacturers. And as far as "trim the fat", see my post above. GM employs less people to run 13 brands worldwide than Toyota does to run 4. And cars need to be updated to stay competitive. It's ben going on forever, and if anything, is done less now than it was in the 50's. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Focus RS. Bring it to America, ••••••• Ford. Focus Rs, google it. AWD turbo 5 cylinder Focus STI-killer. 28mpg to boot. | ||
| Glitch |
GM is the largest automaker in the world by sales numbers Then they do not need my money to stay afloat. | ||
| Xbduck |
Nick, I have no idea what it is your company does. Your profile doesn't give an answer yet it hints at being Gov't oriented. There are many here on this board that buy American whenever possible, myself included, the only problem is the sponsors of this board are the one's who get to advertise here. | ||
| Xbduck |
As for the car industry, I believe we should be on the cusp of a bold new future if they have the vision to take the leap. There comes a time in every products life when it is either reinvented or dies. Brand loyalty is a strong thing in the U.S. I for one prefer the fit and finish of a Mercury over a Ford, I currently own both. I can see how ending brands could be difficult. I also thought Pontiac would go before Oldsmobile. As for the gov't loan, I don't believe there is a bank out there that would if they could loan that kind of money to any one industry right now with this economy. Therefor it had to come from somewhere, even if all it does is buy time. Who knows, maybe come spring we will be better able to handle one of them folding. We need manufacturing jobs to help fuel the economy. Service industry jobs don't cut it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
This Welfare, like every other welfare, leads to LESS independence not more. Why do the hard things to make your company successful and profitable when you have a giant pot of someone else's money to draw from. If the Big 3 were such a great risk, why are there not foreign and domestic banks willing to pony up the money and lend to these companies. Where is the money coming from? Either there will be additional taxes which will suck money out of the system decreasing demand or the Treasury will simply print more money creating a massive drop in the value of the dollar domestically and globally. I would rather have an agreement that there would be loans available AFTER a reorganization rather than before. There has been NOTHING done to systemically change how these companies do business. A healthy reorganization is a good thing. Size doesn't matter. The other thing no one has talked about is that we are yanking money out of the pot supposedly to be used to recapitalize banks to make loans. We are now burning the candle at both ends. We will save the Big 3 at the price of the average person being able to get financing to actually purchase the cars. The sad thing is that over the last 2-3 years GM has been producing cars I would actually want to buy with my own money. Chrysler cars suck naked anus. Fords do nothing for me. I WANT to buy American. Until recently, the Big 3 have given me absolutely NO reason to do so. Right now I have one Honda product and one Toyota product. One has 100,000 miles the other has 138,000 miles. I will be driving both of them until at least 200,000 miles. I know they will make it. Until recently, I didn't have that kind of faith in American cars. Burdening the general public with the expense and impact of this bailout over rides the free market system, undermines the abilities of ALL business to operate profitably, and will prolong this financial hardship for years to come. In Bush's effort not to be remembered as the next Herbert Hoover, he has become the next Herbert Hoover. | ||
| Slaughter |
If I had wanted to INVEST in Generous Motors or Schuyster, I'd have bought stock. Now to decide NOT to invest in them is a violation of tax law. | ||
| Xbduck |
As long as there is gov't there will never be a 'free market'. I really don't think many would enjoy life if there was a totally free market. If you think I'm wrong talk to the people who live in countries who's gov't has failed. We have come to a point where our gov't must step in and rein in the free market to get it back to a place where more of it citizens can prosper, not simple exist, which is where most in the U.S. are right now. (Message edited by xbduck on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Y'all may whine about the cost of loaning money to the big three to keep them in business and paying salaries, pensions, and providing health insurance. But have you looked at what a shutdown will cost, dumping 3,000,000 workers on the unemployment line, never mind the dependents and retirees? Just the unemployment payments would cost over billion a week, and they'd probably be getting them for the full 59 weeks of eligibility. Then figure in the costs when a million or so retirees dumped off the big three's health insurance go on medicare and medicaid while the children end up on S-CHIP. Then add in the lost property tax revenue as literally hundreds of plants, many over a million square feet, go tax forfeit. Add it all up and the cost of loans to the big 3 look like a bargain. | ||
| Slaughter |
Yabbut - the "do something ANYTHING - even if it's wrong" isn't always the answer. IF we "let them fail" - they don't automatically throw every baby out with the bathwater; they may become available to an investor who can then FORCE them to become profitable - all the way from the top down. Do we want to pay the price of nationalizing two of the "big 3?" Why should Ford be penalized for not demanding their bail-out as have Chrysler and GM? (Message edited by slaughter on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
A reorganization would NOT dump 3,000,000 workers on the unemployment line. Very few bankruptcies result in total liquidation. Nearly all result in the company coming out the other side better, stronger, and healthier than before. Stating that 3,000,000 jobs would be lost is intellectually dishonest. What happens when we burn through all the $15B and they STILL go through the bankruptcy? There is ZERO guarantee that this will work to save these companies. We will get the "benefit" of floating these companies AND the economic impact of the lost jobs. Given that, I'll take the reorganization first. | ||
| Slaughter |
I work for a company that was the beneficiary of a governmnet bail-out in 1971. It worked and the taxpayers actually made money on the deal. IF PROPERLY STRUCTUED, a bailout CAN benefit the taxpayers... but IT CANNOT be properly structured if drafted out of emotion. There's just way too much emotion of late. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,9 03076,00.html
Admittedly the SMALL amount of money in play back then to save THIS company is equivalent to ONE BALLPLAYER in todays' money - but you get the idea. | ||
| Stoked |
Everytime you buy a foreign car a small child overseas dies and an American familly goes hungry. Stop justifying it and buy AMERICAN!!!! | ||
| Xl1200r |
Given that, I'll take the reorganization first. Do you honestly think that these companies didn't know they were in trouble until a couple weeks ago? Do you honestly believe that they haven't done as much as they could to get by without these loans? I had a boss tell me once that "People don't like change, they like improvements". All I'm saying is a lot of changes have been made over the past year or so, and many more are slated to change in the coming months. I think it would be unwise and shortsighted to demand complete overhauls at this point in the game. Granted, the folks behind these changes are very close to the industry, and that's sometimes not the best folks to be making the call. However, I'll take that over some gov't agency telling me what to do - the gov't can't even make money for itself, how can anyone expect them to tell someone else how to do it? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Everytime you buy a Toyota, God kills a kitten. | ||
| Stoked |
I've personally seen kittens dropping dead for no reason. It is true. Stop the madness. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Stop justifying it and buy AMERICAN!!!! Stop producing marginal quality shit and give us world competitive products and we will. How many great options from the Big 3 are available in foreign countries that we don't get here? Why is this? The Big 3 believe we will buy whatever shit cars they serve us here just so we can say we bought American. Instead, I bought quality cars produced BY AMERICANS in Ohio and Kentucky. I will probably buy VW as my next car. Produced by AMERICANS in CHATTANOOGA, TN. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I will grant you that I dont understand the Auto industry as to why the CEO is payed millions of dollars in salary and bonuses and the company bottom line is failing. I also dont understand the need for the GMC/Chevy/Cadillac reiterations of the same SUV box. I dont understand why the domestics fail to build market a decent car under 13k However with a degree in Econ and emphasis in Soviet Economics (35 credits), I think I have a damn good handle on how a Capitalist economy is supposed to work, and how a state funded, nationalized industrial nation functions (or doesnt). Graphs and charts all day long. Bring it. Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave at the current round of bail outs, buy outs, and subsidized loans. | ||
| Slaughter |
Remember the Chrysler bail-out that was run through Congress during the Carter Administration? Same arguments then. Let's be careful what we ask for, we MAY GET IT... AGAIN. And again - and again. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,9 47356,00.html | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams would all line up to kick Bush in the dick. As a conservative, I move that we impeach Bush for abdication of his oath of office to defend the Constitution. Barney Franks, Chris Dodd, and Nancy Pelosi should be burned at the stake publicly for treason. Remember this discussion when we have taken up arms against our government. |
