| Author | Message | ||
     Buelltoys |
I don't have much to say about the whole bailout except where is mine. It goes for the banks and the auto industry. I have been dealing with the auto industry for 13 years both as a equipment supplier and now working for it. I currently work for Hyundai who makes a great quality car and SUV. The new Genesis is a fantastic car and will compete against any luxury brand. The Sonata and Santa Fe are assembled by US workers who make less then half of what a UAW worker makes. I believe the UAW and the big 3 getting greedy caused them to loose to the foreign auto makers like Hyundai, Toyota and Honda. The UAW wanted too much $$$ and the big 3 gave in. That's enough I am sure I will get everyone upset if I really speak my mind. Brian | ||
| Buelltoys |
Oh, and for the banks they got themselves into the mess by giving the $$$$ to people who could not afford it!! Making mortgages for 125% of the value of the house and then giving them a 5 year ARM!!! Makes a lot of sense but guess that is what the top CEO's wanted so they could bring home millions every year. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Yeah!! How dare American workers demand a living wage. How dare we still would like a single income family instead of both parents working to make ends meet. How dare we expect to have wage increases. Those stupid Union workers! How dare the Unions, just being in existence, help out ALL workers, Union or not, by fighting for workers rights. What fools! Screw the workers. Point is, just 8% of American workers are Union. To blame any of what is going on in the economy or to what is happening to the "Big 3" is in my opinion, flawed thinking. I would say it has more to do with NO JOBS, therefore no purchasing of automobiles. Personally, I don't care if you're Union or not. That's why we live in this Country. We have a choice. But to blame the workers? Come on. Why are auto sales down across the board? NO WORK!! | ||
| Newbuellertoo |
Going back a few posts about the money "Off-Shore" companies received to open in the U.S. (and Canada), one of the Congressmen gave an example of the Mercedes plant in Alabama. If I remember correctly, (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong),the combined total for free land, training, tax breaks, etc. worked out to $175,000.00 per worker. Don't forget that none of these manufacturers have the huge legacy costs that North American companies have (they haven't been in business as long on this scale), and that a lot of them are subsidised by their own governments back home. And oh yes, the profits they in make in N.A. are going back home to Japan, Korea, Germany, wherever. Anyone here think that someone who spent 30 years on the assembly line doesn't deserve a good pension? I spent 10 years working overhead on trucks and can sometimes barely lift my arms above my head due to the damage to my joints from the repetitive nature of the work. I won't even talk about the amount of fibreglass dust inhaled during installation of heat shields to the underbody. I will be the first to admit that the work is not rocket science, but it can be tough and it can be damaging to a body. Rant off . Sorry, I swore to myself that I was not going to get into this kind of debate about the car biz. It's been good to me over the years and has allowed me to provide a good living for my family. It's just sad to see so many people affected by what is happening. There are many cities and towns who rely almost completely on Car plants or Parts suppliers. They will be wiped out if something does not change in the very near future. (Message edited by newbuellertoo on December 05, 2008) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I bet our shop would go out of business if it were unionized and very fast! For my job we would need: someone certified to turn on my machine, someone certified to program my machine, someone certified to remove and dispense metal shavings, someone certified to check my parts after they were made.... I do all of that and I do it as fast as I can because I like getting a bonus check at the end of the year. I understand the bonus check is not owed to me. My coworkers and I must be productive to get the bonus. We also must be productive if we want raises. We must also negotiate our own wages. If we dont like the wage we can try to negotiate or go somewhere else and thats pretty fair. I do alot of work for a unionized company and I talk to the guys that work there. They dont seem to be all on the same team. In their eyes its the union workers and then the company. Its almost like a schoolyard mentality. They also seem to have as many supervisors as they do workers! I cant even fathom all of the BS time and money wasting that must go on at a bigger facility. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"Anyone here think that someone who spent 30 years on the assembly line doesn't deserve a good pension?" No different than anyone that spent 30 years as a fry cook at McDonald's. Work is work. I spent 17 years fixing what auto assemblers or engineers screwed up...and at probably 1/4th the wage.....and with no pension. It too provided me with a good living. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
heres a easy fix for the big 3. Every one start buying american cars again and stop buying jap crap. I Know there is more to it than that and i know that american cars are not totally made in america and that some jap/korean/euopean cars are made in america but still they would not be hurting as much if people would stop buying overseas brands. | ||
| Ducxl |
How many guys' here preaching the "Jap crap" line DRIVING "Jap crap"? And shopping that traitorous Wal-Mart puke company I used to love the bada$$ Harley guys' reciting the "Jap Crap" line. I remember my father's '76 460ci Merc.There were 454ci chevies too.For a couple years we got Chevettes' and Mustang IIs'.But then Detroit went right back to the "No miles" per gallon guzzlers while them "Japs" kept on building fuel efficient compacts. Shame on Detroit! I love my Uncle....but that "Generous Motors" Health care for life,and retire at 53 same as 65 years old is bankrupting our economy.HECK! Right now,for the first few months of my life I HAVE NO HEALTH INSURANCE!! I want my government to provide ME with health insurance!! Damn it!  | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
I have only owned one jap car and I hated it. By the way the big 3 make fuel friendly cars also and they really never stopped. Yes they have they big v8s and stuff to that sort but look at the jap brands they all have recently came out with big v8 trucks and such also. | ||
| Newbuellertoo |
Just a couple of rebuttals. (And yes some of them are contradictory so flame away if you like!) Just_ziptab- I see your point- Having been both in and out of the union, I have made great money over the years. Much more than I could have made with the level of education I started in the business with. I went back to school, got a degree, but looking around at what comparable jobs are paying outside of the Auto biz,I realize I was very highly compensated for what I did. Maybe I am a closet Socialist, but I think the Macdonalds guy deserves a pension too. Firebolt- I also agree with you. We (N.A.manufacturers) make some great cars that get great mileage. Styling is completely subjective, but I think Japanese / Korean cars are very boring. Being in the business I guess I should be better informed, but they all look alike to me. You will never mistake a 300C for an Implala, or a Taurus,or a Challenger. (The Hemis' get great highway mileage B.T.W.) Individual choice rules in the market place, and maybe it has changed, but car purchases for me have been an emotional thing. Either the car grabs me or it doesn't. (Kind of like my Buell vs. a Honda) Johnnymceldoo / Buelltoys. - You are right too. Although it has improved over the years with concessions from the unions, the layers of classifications really hinders productivity in the plants. At one time I was proud to be an auto worker. Now it seems that I spend most of my time defending myself and my chosen profession if I tell anyone where I work. I sure hope my next career takes me somewhere far. far away from the car companies. (I will always buy from the Big 3 though.) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I bet our shop would go out of business if it were unionized and very fast! For my job we would need: someone certified to turn on my machine, someone certified to program my machine, someone certified to remove and dispense metal shavings, someone certified to check my parts after they were made.... I do all of that and I do it as fast as I can because I like getting a bonus check at the end of the year. I understand the bonus check is not owed to me. My coworkers and I must be productive to get the bonus. We also must be productive if we want raises. We must also negotiate our own wages. If we dont like the wage we can try to negotiate or go somewhere else and thats pretty fair. I do alot of work for a unionized company and I talk to the guys that work there. They dont seem to be all on the same team. In their eyes its the union workers and then the company. Its almost like a schoolyard mentality. They also seem to have as many supervisors as they do workers! I cant even fathom all of the BS time and money wasting that must go on at a bigger facility. This shit just cracks me up. My favorite line is" My coworkers and I must be productive to get the bonus. We also must be productive if we want raises. We must also negotiate our own wages. If we dont like the wage we can try to negotiate or go somewhere else and thats pretty fair.". Yep. All Union workers are lazy. "I do alot of work for a unionized company and I talk to the guys that work there. They dont seem to be all on the same team. In their eyes its the union workers and then the company. Its almost like a schoolyard mentality. They also seem to have as many supervisors as they do workers! " And you and your coworker do what? Put the company you work for above yourself and your family. Bullshit. Again. Use your brain. 8% of American workers are Union. Seems to me the other 92% are the ones that F*cked it up. Ever think of it in those terms? | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Not a problem Newbuellertoo. I'm a 80's/90's guy when it comes to cars/trucks.........just don't care for all the BS that you have to pay for and put up with on the newer stuff. I can lock my own door. I can put it in gear,with out my foot on the brake first. I don't want the headlights to stay on when I turn the key off........shit like that. Make mine Chevy, Ford or Mopar.....but give me some decent mileage for a commuter car with out the extra BS............  | ||
| Zac4mac |
I have a Camaro, a Fiero a Jeep Cherokee and an 1125R, All American, well North American... Had a Harley too, yup the economy sux here as well. Wanna buy a Jeep? | ||
| Just_ziptab |
If our plant went union, nobody would buy our product because consumers wouldn't justify the price/value at that point. Union made or not, price has it's point. Everything you buy is priced by labor..........the raw materials are more or less free at the source. You pay somebody to dig it out of the ground and process it as many times as it takes to get a finished vehicle. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Again. Use your brain. 8% of American workers are Union. Seems to me the other 92% are the ones that F*cked it up. Ever think of it in those terms? The topic is US auto makers and look how many times you quoted me? You could have quoted me once and then responded to a particular statement but instead your post took up most of my 19" screen. Typical union waste.  | ||
| Rainman |
If I remember my college history course correctly, and it's possible I don't as it was a long time ago, one of the first concessions management gave a union was in NYC where workers negotiated an agreement that, in case of a fall off of a girder or building under constructions, would pay them up to the time that they hit the ground. Previously, they got paid until the time they fell. There are reasons why unions were created. Management is not altruistic. There are reasons why unions have caused serious issues. What we need is for people to negotiate what's fair for everyone. Give workers a fair wage so they can buy the product they make and make sure the company has enough money to thrive off of the products they make. I'm hoping Santa Claus will bring it for Christmas. There's as much chance of that happening as there is people actually agreeing to something that makes sense. | ||
| Xbpete |
I see the total of America unable to understand how to cut back to survive. As a local government officials we found ourselves in a tough place during recent budget preparation for the coming year. At the time, the emphasis was on rising fuel costs, not raising taxes to town members and not going to Albany for more money that is in essence coming from us anyway. New York already taxes and fees residents to the 9's, Court, how about the NYC fees? So we did a line by line analysis and cut where we could, it might seem harsh but we did it and maintained our local tax rate without any real loss in local services and no layoffs. We also voted last week to curtail the local school boards plan to spend 40 million dollars, 20 M of which was to tear down a bus barn, put in place 2 soccer fields and build a new bus barn 10 miles away on 110 acres of wet swampy land... As individuals we can find the fluff in our lives and cut it out. Personally just giving up Marlboros, a 2 pack a day habit, results in a savings to my household of almost 5K a year with NY charging fees that bring a single pack to $7.50. It seems every large business and small business, union or not could cut out their own "fluff" during these times. Instead of turning to Washington as the automakers and banking industry have, return to American ingenuity, figure out a plan to make our products here, not outsource natural resources to 3rd. world countries to get finished products in return. TO me,, the definition of colony... The problem is one of speculation, acres of automobiles with no buyers. Thousands of homes empty with no buyers. We produce more than we need and then throw up the white flag running to the gov't for help. If we built homes for people instead of speculation and gave them at a reasonable rate... If we built good cars for people instead of speculation and sold them at a reasonable price... I cannot fathom paying almost 50K for a truck .... it is excessive as are we in our greed and our expectations | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Some observations: I think some of the union bashing is just plain jealousy. 20 years and out is ridiculous. The federal government retirement plan is pulling the same scam on the taxpayer. The American auto manufacturers have the disadvantage of having a large portion of their manufacturing based in the rust belt - the unionized north, where the cost of living is much higher than say, Right-to-Work Alabama. The country needs fair trade - not free trade. No one can compete with slaves in China even if you're business is located in Mississippi. | ||
| Buelltours |
Ferris, sorry, have to disagree on the cost of living issue. I am currently working on a move from Toledo, OH to Greenville, SC to be closer to the transplants (and for better weather). The cost of living around BMW is higher than around Jeep... http://www.bestplaces.net/city/default.aspx?cat=CO STLIV&city=Toledo_OH&ccity=Greenville_SC&p=3977000 &op=4530850 | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
The GM Moraine plant is in an area very affordable to live. You can live in a decent neighborhood with 2-3 bedrooms for $90,000+ and maybe less with the market the way it is. We are paying about $1.63/gallon for gas today in this area. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Local Chevy garage got a call from the zone mgr today(Saturday!).....asking why they have not ordered any vehicles lately. Well duh, nobody is buying anything. We ain't going to bulk up on new vehicles just for the fun of having them sit around till this whole economy thing blows over. Sounds like big dealers are dropping like flies. This dealer is probably one of the smallest dealers around and told me they are doing "OK"............most olsely BECAUSE they are a small dealership. 25 miles up the road, the mega dealers are sweating peanut butter......yeah, the ones with flat screen tv's in the bath rooms, $25,000.00 "Taj Mahal"drinking fountains and a parts counter with a fillet of a genuine 65 Mustang body inlaid into the wall. They charge $50.00 on every work order for "road test" even if it's just a fuel filter replacement. I'll stick with the local "Mom&Pop" shop............. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
You know there was a time were HD was not doing so good and one of there employees at that time was racing japbikes. When He realized that that was a bad thing he built his own motorcycle to go racing with. Because of that guy we are all friends here on the internet. So I say we follow in the guys footsteps that we all think so highly of and stop buying jap stuff. | ||
| Buelltours |
Firebolt, what would you recommend if I had to choose between the new Victory (cool design) and a Goldwing? just wondering.... Greetings from Ohio :-) | ||
| Damnut |
I have a friend who is an Engineer for Ford. His wife got a job on the line starting at $26/hr. Mind you she has ZERO labor/machanical skills and a HS diploma. I'm sorry but that's just crazy. She's making twice what she would for a laborer at a different type of company. That is IF she could even get a job without having the skills. And you and your coworker do what? Put the company you work for above yourself and your family. Bullshit. Rocco.... you know what, YES. Sometimes I do put my work first. You know why?? It's because it's my work that provide the $$$ that pays my bills. I've had to make sacrifices and work weekends, stay on the road longer and do thing for my company that took me away from my family. I can say that I am proud of the company that I work for and the work that I do for them. It's a give and take with me and my company, with the Union it's just take, no give. Oh I almost forgot why that is, union work means SKILLED LABOR.  Sad to say but UAW folks are more proud of their union then they are the company that they work for. Sorry Rocco but the money that the UAW workers are getting is DEFINITELY one of the reasons that that Big 3 are where they are. It's not the only reason but it did contribute. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Firebolt, what would you recommend if I had to choose between the new Victory (cool design) and a Goldwing? Isn't Honda closing their motorcycle factory in Ohio? As far as cost of living in the south, I stand corrected. I guess that's because the auto plants have raised the cost of living down there  His wife got a job on the line starting at $26/hr That certainly is a nice salary, especially walking in off the street. However,I would like to see this same level of outrage against the federal government with their bloated workforce. I would like to retire after 20 years and then come back as a consultant making twice as much money. I'd like to get five weeks of vacation a year plus five weeks of sick leave. I'd like to have one of the best thrift savings plans and health care options available anywhere. Yea, if I had to do it again I'd get a job with the feds. | ||
| 12x9sl |
+1 Damnut "but the money that the UAW workers are getting is DEFINITELY one of the reasons that that Big 3 are where they are. It's not the only reason but it did contribute."} That is so true. The UAW employees working for Toyota and other companies in the states make quite a bit less than those working for the big three.} | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
well I don't know much about victory but i do know that even if the gold wing is put together in America it is made by a company that is from japan so a fair amount of money for that bike still goes back to japan. Also the parts are still made in japan. Victory would have more money staying in America because it is an American based company. (Message edited by firebolt020283 on December 06, 2008) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I feel for you guys, we've got auto industry problems here too. My local Peugeot/Citroen plant just closed til Jan 6th, & is planning on one week a month shut-down next year. The company I work for has 18 drivers on supply work for the plant, myself included, though as one of the old school guys on the firm I'll not get laid off, I'll get put on other stuff. Every trucking company around these parts has trucks running for them, & some of them will struggle to make it through. It's not just the auto workers who get it when this happens, the ripples spread far & wide. | ||
| Court |
Often times I find MONEY to be the easy target. Try, for the sake of perspective, to try to solve this equation with no reference to $$$. Sometimes we miss the obvious since dollars are so easy to measure, point at and compare. | ||
| Chasespeed |
I will buy and drive, what I can afford, and what will be a good overall value... I have a Caddy STS with 103k on it... I also have an ISUZU Rodeo.. 99, with 171k on it, and plenty more to go... no leaks, doesnt burn oil, or anything other than gas... Cant complain, I THINK it was built in Indiana... Personally, I dont care. It gave me a good return on my investment, when I needed to buy a different vehicle, as an E4, with a pregnant wife... I am going to drive it into the ground.... The whole buy american thing.. idealy, its great. In reality, it wouldnt work. I am trying to find another 1ton diesel... the big 3 have that market, and it shows with trucks costing more than I made in a year... BUT, they can charge that, and the people that need a big diesel, will pay for it... Until, toyota or someone else releases a cheaper alternative... BTW, the Chevy Duramax... yeah, thats Isuzu... forgot about that... And I will not start on MY interaction with Unions.... I will really piss people off... Chase (Message edited by chasespeed on December 06, 2008) |
