| Author | Message | ||
     Boney95 |
How many BadWebers lose their lives due to motorcycle accidents per year? It seems like an alarmingly high number. This has to end. I hate reading these fallen rider posts. | ||
| Danger_dave |
Sorry pal. It's not just badweb. It's every group I'm on. And it won't end. What we do is extremely dangerous. Always has been - always will be. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Sorry pal. It's not just badweb. It's every group I'm on. And it won't end. What we do is extremely dangerous. Always has been - always will be. I'm with Dave on this one. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I don't mean to be a pr*ck about it either - it's very sad - but it's unfortunately part of the gig. I like the: 'It's better to live one day as a Tiger than a thousand years as a Sheep' justification. | ||
| Glitch |
Sad indeed, and unfortunately not at all unusual.  I've been on riding/motorcycle boards ever since BBSs (anyone remember Wildcat?) and Usenet (anyone know of ABPMS?) it goes in waves it seems. Still sad none the less, especially when it hits close to home. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I am afraid I must respectfully disagree. While there are dangers inherent in motorcycle riding, it is much less dangerous than flying, which has much lower accident rates. I believe this is because one can not fly without proper training and licenses. I do believe that a big part of the problem is the easy access to heavyweight high speed motorcycles by totally inexperienced riders. Back in the day, one usually started with a 125cc bike, then progressed to a 250, and then, after a couple of years to a heavy weight bike which was usually a 500 or six fifty which was as big as they got, (except for Harley's which were bigger but slower). A top speed of a hundred miles an hour was considered very fast. In England, this system has become law, with a series of tests and training required as one moves up the ladder of size, speed and horsepower. http://northukbikers-videos.co.uk/BBC/index.php?op tion=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=8 I still continued to be amazed that a 18 year old with no motorcycle license of any kind, and no experience of any kind, can simply walk into any motorcycle store and buy a 170 mph motorcycle. Many of these riders crash within days of buying their bike. Only the most skilled and experienced motorcyclist can really control these bikes when ridden at their maximum performance levels. I know I could not. Using even a small fraction of the available performance on the public roads is, of course, suicidal. The fact that insurance rates for this type of bike and rider can be as high as one third of the cost of the bike, shows that accidents are far too common. I am generally not in favor of government regulation of any kind. I hope the next, first regulation will not be the banning powerful motorcycles entirely. If the carnage continues, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens. (Message edited by gentleman_jon on December 02, 2008) | ||
| Glitch |
Back in the day when folks seemed to have common sense.... | ||
| Slaughter |
[rant]I have to agree with a few of the above posters. We're having these conversations way too often and the time to have them is BEFORE somebody wads themselves up - but we RARELY do. We accept "choices" that others make when we KNOW that these choices put them at higher risk. I'm not just talking about their particular choice of hardware/machinery but about their style of riding. It is not easy but in my opinion, we really should NOT memorialize people who make bad decisions... especially when the results are SO FREAKING PREDICTABLE. Unlike the passing of a soldier, a firefighter, or policeman, there is no glory, no worthy sacrifice in this, there is only waste. We have begun to refer to the Spring out here in the CA mountains as the beginning of the "Killing Season" because it HAS gotten so bad. I never thought I'd ever become this hardened - but over just the past decade or so it HAS become a lot worse. Over the past 4 decades, it has become TERRIBLE. We need to consider what we're bringing down on ourselves when we look the other way as the young/inexperienced riders buy into the "need" for nearly 200HP and a "lifestyle" of speed and stunting and extreme risk-taking. This IS a new phenomenon in our culture. Risk taking has always been with us but it has NEVER BEFORE generated competing television programs and whole industries devoted to such risk-taking. Just look at discussions on typical stunting and street racing. Watch the crowds forming around the videos at the motorcycle shows and TELL ME it's not an issue. I've said it before and will say it again: we're bringing this on ourselves. The carnage does not have to be this bad. Yes, there will always be accidents, there will be choices but the idea that 175HP is somehow 35 "better" than a bike with "only" 140 - gets a little old. It is a hard-assed comment but I have decided to campaign to ENCOURAGE street craziness since we CANNOT stop it. I am always looking for spares for my racebikes and it's much cheaper to buy them salvage. Let's encourage the filling out of organ donor cards. [/rant] | ||
| Reepicheep |
I won't name names here, but I could. When fools are behaving dangerously and getting themselves hurt, the motorcycle approaches irrelevant. Sure the bike made for a spectacular exit, but if it hadn't been the bike it would have been drunk in some Camaro, overdosed at some party, dead from some bar fight, HIV positive, or just suicidal based on the accumulated weight of a LOT of bad decisions. There will always be people living dangerously, and some percentage of them will have motorcycles as their drug of choice. The ones that freak me out are the ones that were very careful and methodical, but got taken anyway. When I started riding, being the obsessive compulsive engineer / information security / analysis geek that I am, I put quite a bit of effort into figuring out the real risks of two wheels. Most of my good data came from the Hurt Report. First take out all the stupid stuff that is under your control. No riding after drinking. No riding without insurance. No riding without valid license and training. Then take out some of the stuff that isn't under your control where you can... Don't be an 18 year old on a motorcycle on the street, wait until you are older to start riding. Then add in some other things to stack the odds in your favor... get experience on a dirt bike on the dirt under lots of different conditions. Do some track days. Take the MSF classes, read several books and practice the drills. Take a defensive driving class. Practice aggressively defensive driving. Buy and always wear a LOT of strategically thought out safety gear. Have a bike that can do everything you might want it to do better then you can do it... everything but acceleration. Have "just enough" motor, and incredible suspension, brakes, and tires, and lighting. If you do all this, you can bring the odds of serious injury on a motorcycle down to 2x to 4x what you would have in a car. Still a significant risk, but one that approaches rational. An 18 year old jumping on a bike engaging in most of the 18 year old behaviors and not trying to address any of the other issues starts at like 14 times more likely to get seriously hurt on a motorcycle then they do in a car... and the odds go up from there. Thats a stupid high risk (IMHO). Still, every day, people doing everything right get killed on motorcycles. They also die of cancer, get killed by terrorists, have heart attacks, and get killed in their cars. If you do a LOT of work to stack the odds in your favor, and you love to motorcycle, I think the risk / rewards analysis is somewhere between rational and compelling. If you aren't stacking the odds in your favor, you either haven't done the math, don't feel like you have a lot to loose, or are willing to take an awful high risk. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Slaughter and I cross posted. I'm with you Slaughter. Looking at recent threads, we probably handled recent events more gently then we should have. I doubt it would have made a difference, but I would feel a little better if I hadn't been so "gentle". Not rude, but not soft selling things either. | ||
| Jb2 |
Most everyone who posts here knows I lost my Dad in 2002 at the hands of a teenage boy on the run from the law. He was one of the safest motorcyclists I ever knew. He did everything in his power to avoid it including proper braking and all his gear. I was taunted by family members to hang up the helmet after his death but have found it's a fire that burns in me that I can't put out. It's part of what we are. There are lots of things I'd give up to have him back but motorcycling isn't one of them. It's one of the best gifts he ever gave me. You can't change history and you can't live in a box so why not live free in the wind? God bless all who go before us. JB2 | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I posted in another similar thread on another board that part of the attraction of riding, of doing what we do, is that it actually COULD kill you. It comes with the sport. Were there a nerf bike that was completely safe, I doubt that many here would buy it. We seek out like minded folks who do what we do, because those who don't can't understand why we do. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
90% of the riders involved in a fatal motorcycle crash have never taken any rider training (MSF BRC) | ||
| Babired |
The more riders you know the more likely you will hear of a Motorcycle fatality. In Maryland in the spring time it's the same as what Slaughter has posted. God Bless Theresa Harvey who rode a Honda Super Hawk, she was an MSF instructor who is my age. Rode AGGATT. I never taught with her when I found out she was killed, I cried she was a colleague I never got the chance to meet. Her crash: crested a blind hill, something MSF doesn't teach, and ran into a dump truck making an illegal turn. This was in 2007. And yesterday I was on the XB board reading about a young man getting ready to go into the Marines He was posting on Nov 20th and died from injuries on Nov 29. Sad! I'm thankful for another year. K | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
where to begin? the crusty old long-time rider cynic in me sees what's happening in the sport, specifically the rampant stunting and triple-digit riding on crowded public roads, as the most dangerous threat to the survival of our sport our sport has ever seen. i'm no saint, but i like to think i know when to say when. many young riders don't, and the publicity this garners, particularly when loss of life is involved, is so incredibly damaging i don't really know how to put it in words. that said, what can i do? my words here are nothing more than preaching to the choir, and will have no impact on the nimrods out there killing themselves for no good reason. sigh. something i CAN do, and DO do, is preach to any riders who have gathered together for a ride i've organized. it was hard for me at first, presuming to have anything of worth to say to another rider. it got a lot easier when i had several guys on several rides go off-roading trying to hang with the big dogs up front. fortunately there was never anything more serious than an emergency room visit for bumps, bruised and contusions, but it taught me that i have a lot of responsibility to the group, when said group has gathered on my account. so, what i CAN do to help riders better meet the challenges of a ride, is PREACH to them BEFORE the ride. it always rolls an eyeball or two, but mostly it helps to get everyone's heads pointed in the right direction, and diffuses some of the energy that's always present before the ride. i like to tell the "slow" riders that there's no shame in going "slow," and that we will always wait for them somewhere up the line. taking away the fear of getting lost (or "abandoned") is SUCH a great tool to give a newish/slowish/timidish rider. i could go on, and i'm sorry for the blather already before you, but it won't help the youngsters out there who are splattering themselves on bikes that only Nicky and Valentino could truly control. but maybe, just maybe, i've helped someone here, and if so, well, my time and your attention were worth it. i'll add this: even when you hook up with your best buddy to ride, just the two of you, perhaps on a road you've both ridden a million times, it can't hurt to talk about the fact that riding CAN hurt. for all who've gone before us, may you always ride in peace. FB | ||
| Bill0351 |
Out of respect, I will keep this post out of the one for the family and friends of 9m9knight, but looking at his words tells a lot about what ends the lives of a lot of young riders. These were his own words less than two weeks ago: "Maybe I shouldn't brag about this but as I was getting off of work I decide to go for a little joy ride, I get attention from 4 people first an older guy at a stop light yells out, "thats badass I like how you ride" prolly earlier when I sped paced him and he prolly liked my dark helm and illegaly wearing a dark visor. Next a punk in a red GTI starts mouthing off to me...cant be because I paced him becuase he just turned in and almost hitting me. I was going speed limit...More cocking off to me, so then I snap theres this little part of me that just all of a sudden makes me throttle it. So...I guess I split lanes and weav in and out all around 100mph when suddenly I brake on top of a police officer slowed down to 52 and switched to his lane. I soon turn off to a gas station and little did i know that I passed an off duty state trooper that went further and got the Police officer and both came up to as I was just about to leave. Police man comes out and says were you splitting lanes I reply "No...what do you mean?" and the the off duty said "first before you say anything let me tell you I'm an off duty state trooper" So I told them both I was just tring to avoid a confrontation with a red GTI. Police man said "well my rear radar was blinking at 100mph and over and this gentalmen tells me you were splitting lanes so i come to the conclusion that the blinking was you switching lanes, then I had you clocked at 52mph I didn't pull you over because I wasn't sure it was you. Well i got away with a $229 dollar fine. No hard feelings for the officer its just too bad I got caught. Now my recruiter is going to be pissed. Have any of you gotten anything like that? or a load of tickets? Well I have not gotten my drivers license for the bike yet. when he asked for my license I said I just got the bike and i need the bike to get the license and i guess he went for that either that or he forgot to write me a ticket for no license. Maybe he was being nice, But could you explain a little more about that no insurance?" There is a steep learning curve for our sport. It's like jumping into the deep end of the pool when you don't know how to swim. So many of us started out just like 9m9knight and eventually learned to ride properly. Too many people, several friends included, weren't as lucky as us. I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is one, but when my kids start riding, it will make me think long and hard about how I introduce them to the sport. There is no single place in the world that makes me feel so alive as when I am riding my motorcycle, but I am still extremely nervous when I bring someone new into the sport. Here's to a serious moment of silence for everyone who bit off more than they could chew and didn't live to learn their lesson. Bill | ||
| Boney95 |
WOW! I didn't read that post.............................................. ............... | ||
| Seanp |
Here's to a serious moment of silence for everyone who bit off more than they could chew and didn't live to learn their lesson. Hear hear. I know that I made plenty of ••••••• mistakes as a kid that could have gotten me killed. I didn't start riding until I was 30, so I was mostly over the ••••••• portion of my life. I'm not so sure that I would have made it to 30 if I'd have been riding at 18 or 19. Unfortunately, one aspect of riding that attracts a lot of people is the danger. I know that coming home from my first deployment, there were a lot of guys looking to get bikes. Somehow, when you've spent day in and day out driving around Baghdad, you tend to get bored driving around rural Louisiana. I think that most riders that make it past the "riding is dangerous, and dangerous is fun" stage of riding come to realize that riding is relaxing and enjoyable by itself. Just the sheer thrill of being on two wheels is enough excitement, without having to go mach 2 with your hair on fire... | ||
| Preybird1 |
I always said motorcycles are dangerous. More so if you make them dangerous. Everyone i know that crashed, Was a newbie or was doing something stupid! But it can happen people dont pay attention. One of my friends got hit by a lady not looking before pulling out. Riding a motorcycle is an ART! Not everyone can be an artist right? | ||
| Rainman |
I love the danger of riding on the street. It makes me feel alive, like I'm sparring in a vehicular karate tournament. Like karate, too much emotion will cause problems. Too much confidence, too much aggression, even too much caution can be bad things. There are so many ways to get hurt. I've had four former students in the MSF class die in the 8 years I've taught: One caught head-on a lady in a mini-van driving in his lane up a blind hill; one ran off the road wide in a turn, one came into a blind, tight backroad curve full-tilt and hit a grandma crossing the road in a John Deere Gator with her grandkids in a trailer. The other had his provisional license (In Va, if you pass the MSF course, you have your license) for three days and ran up a mountain road too fast, lost it in the curve and slid under a truck. Unfortunately, I had to do the news stories on all of them. It hurt to know that there was no need for three of the four crashes. How do you teach discretion and self-control? | ||
| Seanp |
How do you teach discretion and self-control? Experience. | ||
| Hexangler |
How do you get experience? Join a riding club and ride in "groups only" in formation for a long time. Get a dirt bike and ride religiously off road from 10 to 20 years old. Ride a bicycle religiously from 10 to 20 years old. Race dirt bikes Moto-X, Trials, and Speedway. Race bicycles Moto-X, Mountain Bike, and Street. Complete many centuries (100-mile a day rides). | ||
| Xbpete |
I find myself in agreement with Gentlman_Jon as far as taking steps. It should start with parents and the stealerships not giving in to a large displacement high h/p bike as a first step into the world of 2 wheels. DON'T SELL THE KID A DEATH CERTIFICATE!!!! Teach them to ride~! My personal progression started at the age of 11 with a Rupp 3 1/2 H/P mini-bike. Many months later as the engine grew larger and my abilities grew I "graduated" into a 125cc Dirt bike, had to put it on bumper holders to take it to track and field along with my Dad. By the time I was 16, the Triumph Tiger 650 I bought was a controllable vehicle with my experience level of 5 plus years on motorized 2 wheel fun. My folks had no problem with it as I had proved myself competent to ride. As a proud parent, I did not "allow" or condone my son starting his 2 wheel life with a Katana or such much to his dismay, but again had him start with low power, smaller displacement, and classes to develop his skills and control. He now is in control of his Ducati 1098R ,848 or GSXR 750. He rides fast on the track at an expert level, stays reasonable with the occasional burst of speed on the street. We love our sport but also respect riding to live and living to ride. The main point is living!~! A 12R is not in any way shape or form a good starter bike, the results are seen all too often when the kid thinks he can "grow into" the performance motorcyle world and ends up like all too many of our young friends.. Take a second, a minute, an hour, whatever it takes to talk to the young about what it takes to become an "old biker" | ||
| Fromparis |
HOW AMAZING to see the verbosity of this post! Obviously something that touches all of our deepest inner-selves. I would like to add that along with the obvious too-much-power--too-young-rider phenomena (being French, we too have multiple levels of rider licenses), one major difference that I noticed when I first moved to the US (27 yrs ago) is that most American riders are week end riders. Thus, too often, riding ends up being a stress releaser which leads to excessive speed and/or dangerous maneuvers that result in catastrophes. As an everyday rider, I cannot but notice the part-time riders every weekends and week evenings. Please, don’t misinterpret this. There is NOTHING wrong about riding for pleasure. There's been time in my life when riding to work was not an option. My point is that the experience of riding on a regular basis DOES bring the most important lesson of all: understanding the danger and anticipating the erratic behavior of all others that share the road with us. Again, based on my riding experience automobile drivers in the southern part of the US are NOT aware of what surrounds their box. In short one word that would help the tragic statistics: CAUTION Many times I have re-considered my NEED to ride; many times I concluded that it is part of me: a thread that connects me to my youth. I just hope that more young riders would have that luxury: future days when they would reminisce on those years of riding. SO, LET’S SPREAD THE GOOD WORD. LET”S BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. LET’S ADVISE NOVICE RIDERS AND WARN RECKLESS –EVEN IF SEASONED- RIDERS. MAY BE WE COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE? Frederic | ||
| Jlnance |
that said, what can i do? I've a rather unconventional answer to that, at least as it concerns the "kids." We say that kids do stupid things, that we did stupid things when we were younger. I don't think it's that simple. When you're really young, you don't have a standing in society. Not much respect, not much money, not a lot of immediate opportunity make any. You desperately want sex, but don't have anything to offer the girls. There is one thing you have: the ability to take risks. You ride a wheelie down the interstate, and you get respect. Respect from your peers. Respect from the girls. The truth is that life with out respect isn't much worth living. If your only option to get it is to do something risky, then that's what you're going to do. You really don't have much to loose. If you don't think I'm right, consider the girls who will starve themselves literally to death in order to fit in. Kids (and I use that term very loosely) are annoying and their music sucks.  It's still good for your karma to make them feel welcome. You're not going to save all of them by yourself. Or probably even one by yourself. But everyone needs a place to fit in. It's not hard give someone a place to do that. | ||
| Bill0351 |
Jlnace, I couldn't agree more. It is a real shame that kid didn't make it long enough to get into the USMC. The Corps has been taking loud mouthed overconfident kids and turning them into disciplined young men for longer than our country has been in existence. Being a good Marine gives you something real to get respect for. It teaches you to respect authority, and the abilities of others. It also gives you that place you mentioned where you fit in. More importantly, it gives you something you can respect yourself for. Seeing a young kid like 9m9Knight die just sucks from so many angles it's hard to count them. Bill | ||
| Danger_dave |
Bill, Servicemen have one of the highest MC mortality rates - ? | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Servicemen have one of the highest MC mortality rates I think its safe to say from my experience in the Marine Corps that you would be hard pressed to find a group of people willing to take a risk for a thrill.... | ||
| Bill0351 |
Hey DD, That's true, but I think a lot of the reason for that is exactly what killed 9m9. They come home with enough money to buy a bike, but they don't have any training. I think if you gave the average 20 year-old kid enough cash to buy a new sport bike, I bet they would die at even higher levels. I don't think it is just the feeling of being bulletproof. I think it has at least as much to do with having a pocket full of cash. Poverty has kept many kids from killing themselves in vehicles that were beyond their ability to control. The military community also looks out for its own. I got at least three of my friends to take the MSF course when we returned from Iraq. They were going to get bikes no matter what. The MSF course was mainly a result of constant and irritating pressure on my part. I just think that if m9m had a little maturity that the USMC, or any military service can provide, he might be alive right now. At least boot camp would have kept him off the road for a few months and possibly introduced him to some people who actually knew what they were doing when it came to riding. Bill | ||
| Skinstains |
This is The United States of America for crying out loud ! A country founded by risktaking, misfit, troublemakers. Kids will be kids. It's as simple as that. I did it, you did it, and now it's their turn. Does it suck that so many are going to die doing it ? Sure it does, but that's the American way. Bigger, better, faster, cooler, and above all FREE'er. That's why the rest of the world hates us so much. We are thick skulled know it all's. Freedom isn't free, it is actually quite the opposite. Is it worth the price ? I think so and I bet most of the dead would agree with me. How does New Hampshire say it..."Live Free and Die", I know it's an or but I couldn't resist. |
