| Author | Message | ||
     B00stzx3 |
hey guys. I think theres something I'm not getting when it comes to "pushing" the bars to turn. I have an 03 Firebolt and went on a groupride sunday with a sportbike group near where I live. They were taking turns crazy fast and low. I got the hang of things once I got the tip to hang a little butt of your butt/body towards the side your tunring into. But I have no idea what there saying when they say to "push" the opposite direction to turn. if I wanna turn left, shouldnt I be trying to push the bars to the left, even at 60mph? Maybe thats why I'm having trouble in high speed turns, but it doesnt make sense to me to push in the opposite direction of where your trying to turn. | ||
| Slick17 |
Ha ha. I thought the same thing when I first started riding. Once you start riding you figure it out. The bike leans to turn. so when you push to the right it put more weight on the right making it turn Right lol. try riding down the road and on a straight away take you left hand off the bars and push slightly with right hand and you will see that it goes right. I think the class that I took a couple of years ago had a saying "look, press, roll" for turning. I hope I explained it right lol | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Take the MSf Basic Rider class and it should clear everything up for you.... Push left, lean left, go left.... Push right, lean right, go right... The next time you go riding take you left hand off the grip and make a lane change or change your position in your lane using only your right hand. (USE CAUTION PLEASE, NICE SLOW INPUTS) | ||
| Swordsman |
Whoah nelly! Don't even think about trying to go fast and "hang a little butt" if you don't understand the concept of countersteering. You're obviously a new rider, so you definitely shouldn't be trying anything like that yet, no matter how cool it looks. You don't "steer" motorcycles in the direction you want. You let them fall. By cutting the wheel to the right, the center of gravity will actually fall to the left. When the weight falls far enough to the left, the lean angle of the tires will cause the bike to veer in the same direction. that's why it's called countersteering... by "gently" turning the wheel one direction, the bike will fall and travel the other way. Get thyself to an MSF course ASAP! ~SM | ||
| Jlnance |
But I have no idea what there saying when they say to "push" the opposite direction to turn. Motorcycles (and bicycles) steer backwards, at least if you're going over about 20 mph. I'd second the MSF advice. Not just because they will talk about this, but because the only other way to learn a lot of the stuff they talk about is to crash a few times. The class is a cheaper and less painful alternative. | ||
| Garyz28 |
The first time I experimented with counterstear I was on an clear section of the freeway. I placed the open palm of my left hand against the end of the handlebar and gently pushed forward. The bike immediately dipped to the left. In the MST class they taught us a method that seems a little more natural. You press down on the side you want to turn to. When you press down on one side it automatically turns the steering head slightly to the other side. After you experiment with it a bit it starts to become natural. | ||
| Skinstains |
Along with the relocation of the center of gravity you must understand that the side of a tire is a smaller diameter than the center. With both the shift of the center of gravity and the introduction of a progressively schrinking (sp) diameter of the front wheel, the bike has no choice but to turn in the opposite direction of that wich the bars are facing. I hope this helps. Chances are you were doing it right the whole time but never thought about it. Now that your friends mentioned it to you you can't not notice it and findd it to be wierd. MSF can't do anything but help. | ||
| Tramp |
Be VERY carfeul about trendy over-exertion of counter-steer- In an effective MC turn, you should start by rolling your outside foot inward, effecting an inside knee inward pressure, followed by concentric hip pressure, and counter-rotation o he shoulders to cause a counter-steer effect at the bars- Simply riding around, jamming the bars creates a loss of essential centripetal pressure, which often leads to an unintentional slide, which , through over-correction, usually leads to a high side. Try this: on a safe hill, practice steering your machine without your hands on the controls, by starting at the bottom (inward{concentric} foot roll), and pressuring your articulates upwardly, without using the handlebars, at all. Once you've mastered this evenly-pressured, rider-integrated steering technique, allow it to extend the pressure to that inside bar end. First, though, learn how to ride from your feet, UP. Smoothest wins | ||
| Tramp |
"pushing" should be an secondary effect of another cause | ||
| Borrowedbike |
Tramp, Code disagrees with you to the extent he has a free bike for you if you can ride around the track without using the bars to steer. It's called the NO BS bike. (Body steer) While all of the inputs you list are important for good form, the ONLY way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to countersteer. But let's not threadjack and beat a dead horse. B00stzx3, MSF course, worth every dime! | ||
| Jaimec |
In a swerving maneuver, you don't use your body AT all. It's all in the hands (actually arms and shoulders). I once dinged a complete U-Turn when some jackass in a cage pulled into the right turn lane, and as I moved to pass MADE A U-TURN across four lanes of traffic!! It was pure reflex, I pressed down hard on the left grip and followed him all the way through his turn. The idiot driving was completely oblivious but his back seat passengers had eyes like saucers. Before I ever took Keith Code's school, I took Reg Pridmore's C.L.A.S.S. Reg is one of the biggest proponents of Tramp's "Body Steering" technique. If you actually study what is happening when you use that technique you are actually initiating an upper-body counter-steer by using your lower-body to initiate it. It works, but you'll change direction a LOT faster if you just apply the direct pressure to the handlebars without having all of the additional gymnastics to go with it. Sport Riding is another story. Using your body helps to stabilize the motorcycle once you're in the turn (and hold YOU in a more stable position to perform additional inputs). But simply initiating the turn requires nothing more than your arms and shoulders applying pressure to the inside handlebar. | ||
| Tramp |
Borrowed bike- I have ridden motorcycles around tracks with no hands on controls. Problem here is that too many intermediate riders are attempting to ape high-end race technique, which doesn't always apply. Jaimec- "swerving" is a last-ditch survival move, one of many 'tools' that should make up a rider's bag. Doesn't mean it should be employed as described a the time, just as I don't use my 8 mm deepwell socket for every fastener I come across. Initiating turns with only uper-body counter-steer is one of the greatest causes of inadvertent high-siding. There's a pressure-free 'dead zone' when employing only the arms for a turn. I flat-track, we had to jam with our arms; I'm no stranger to this style of riding, and I enjoy it immensely. that being said, it leads to more problems with intermediate riders on the street than warrants it's employment. hey- It's only my 41st year of riding, what do i know? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Please DO get to a MSF course ASAP. Please DO NOT think about riding with a passenger before you do. | ||
| Swordsman |
While I use my arms a good bit, I think I've felt what Tramp is talking about. When I engage my lower body in the turning procedure, I get an extra sensation almost like the rear of the bike is swinging outward more, and the turn is steeper. Maybe that's a bad way to describe it (because it sounds like sliding the rear tire, and that's CERTAINLY not happening), but that's the best I can do to explain it. Or maybe I just need to tune my suspension!  ~SM | ||
| Hexangler |
Sometimes I push on the right bar to go right, sometimes I pull on the left bar to go right, sometimes I do both at the same time to go right...and visa versa. edit: (It's a very subtle input on either or both bars. Could be done with just thumbs and forefingers. You just need saddle time, walk before you run.) (Message edited by hexangler on November 12, 2008) | ||
| Sekalilgai |
Please DO get to a MSF course ASAP. Please DO NOT think about riding with a passenger before you do. Amen to that! It'll take some willpower but resist trying to 'keep up' on the group rides; your buddies would rather wait a minute than stand around waiting for the chopper. If not, time to find new riding buddies. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Alright thanks guys. I'm gonna try some countersteering on a less traveled street after work today. I have taken the MSF course, even did the "in-traffic" after course as well. That was 5 or 6 months ago, been commuting 50 miles on a 65mph highway, congested and all with no accidents, drops or close calls. Defintley not doing the passnger thing for a long time. I think I'mma look up some videos on the subject as I'm getting more and more confused. | ||
| Ikeman |
Covers countersteering (and most everything else street-riding related): http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ulti mate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1226514601&sr=1-1 | ||
| Babired |
Bobby I can help please use caution practicing this now because its colder take the time to warm your tires up before doing any parking lot counter steering. My training season ends this weekend and if you want we could meet on a training center parking lot, I'll bring the cones. Some books for you Proficient Motorcycling 1 and 2 Stayin Safe by Larry Grodsky These are more for countersteering. Try Total Control for the body position and 10 steps to cornering. K | ||
| J2blue |
Did anyone ask if the person asking about counter steering had much experience riding a bicycle? I've got years of experience on such and found the motorcycle discussion of counter steering a head scratcher at first. If you ride bicycles much at all you have an intuitive understanding of the steering without having an articulation of the theory of counter steering. Who teaches their kid that when they first learn to ride a bike? Take the MSF course. I did, and they spent some time on the theory of how the motorcycle steers, but not to distraction. Watch some videos of people performing steering maneuvers and ask some one to articulate the actual steering dynamics that are taking place and then it will begin to make sense. On the other hand, if you don't understand the theory but you seem to be steering the motorcycle at a speed you feel comfortable with then keep doing that. And, remember to not push to keep up with "faster" riders. If you are struggling to keep up you are probably over your head...I am still doing that on some group rides. Keep it simple. | ||
| Jaimec |
Tramp: It's a question of perception. As someone else said, if you initiate it too hard (especially with cold tires) you will flip the bike out from under you. On the other hand, I've used Code's "quick flick" routine with warmed tires and the amount of traction you have is unbelievable. It's amazing how fast you can snap a bike from one lean to another and back again using just the bars. As someone else said "walk before you run." And I ALWAYS instruct my students that riding a motorcycle is more a question of technique and finesse than of brute force. | ||
| Jaimec |
I just showed this thread to another RiderCoach friend of mine, and she said: "Don't let your brain get in the way of your thinking..." Just let it happen, stop "thinking" about it. | ||
| Rainman |
I like to pull Tramp's method of steering on the gentle hill that rolls 3/4 of a mile to my driveway. I'm doing about 20 mph and I release the handle bars putting my arms in a Rose-on-the-bow-of-the-Titanic position and use my lower body to make the bike follow the gentle bends in the road. It's fun and it impresses the neighbor kids. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
what you just read means nothing on dirt. You lean into a corner and 'hang butt' into that dirty curve and you will experience gravity, inertia and rash in quickness. | ||
| Babired |
Jaimec and his co-instructor  I usually ask my students do you think about breathing when you do it? K | ||
| B00stzx3 |
I've never had trouble steering, I just still can't get the countersteer idea. I will have to read up on it, and try some things when I get home. Babired- thank you for the offer! I aint got much money but I can pay something, I just wanna be able to track the bike next season. That groupride got my "carving" addiction going. I can do any weekend, I really appreciate it! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Why a motorcycle turns is as much a mystery as women subject to the multiple opinions of those who try to understand them. What you do to make it happen is much more intuitive and elemental. I don't think it's possible to steer a motorcycle at speed any other way but to countersteer. I can't even imagine how counter to the universe the behavior of steering the bike in a non-countersteer fashion would be. I don't think it's possible to do it. Like others have said, it's like breathing. It just happens unless you begin thinking about it. If you begin thinking about it, you can interfere with it's natural progression. Sometimes detrimentally. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
I'm scared. Dude, please, PLEASE don't even think about a passenger until you understand what's going on with your motorcycle. | ||
| B00stzx3 |
Thank you ft. Maybe I am doing it, maybe I'm just overanalyzing myself when I've been doing it the whole time. I been commuting from baltimore to D.C. on the bike for 4 or 5 months now, I guess I'm doing somethign right. Lionsfan, please note I said I wouldn't be taking a passenger for a long time. | ||
| Badlionsfan |
Thank you. |
