| Author | Message | ||
     Nevco1 |
Dyna...go smoke some more Tai. Then again, a Buell 1200 (Tuber or XB) is more of a training bike than any 600 in line 4 race replica bike by merit of its power being more controllable. HP and Torque at lower RPM's is indeed more rheostatic (read: controllable). The difference is the maturity to know what you are sitting on and use it according to your skills. Damn, if you applied your concept to autos, the majority would still be riding in underpowered Yugo's. | ||
| Nevco1 |
M2me...I concur with your findings. MSF Type Education and Skills Practices are the way to go for now. Incidentally, the CA skills test was such that most DMV offices took it upon themselves to modify it as the failure rate was quite high. Would have applied if you were a Shriner in a Clown Outfit on a MiniBike, but not real world skills. Tis the reason, you can borrow/rent a bike anywhere out there to take your test on. | ||
| Dynarider |
Bill, I would no sooner put a new rider on a CBR600RR than I would a new driver into Viper. Going to have the same end result. Only problem with the bike tho is they are cheap as compared to any car & definetly not as safe when you crash. Not too many new driver have the $$$ to pny up for a Vette or a Viper or a Lotus, BMW, etc. But just about anyone can scrape up $6-7K for a bike that will smoke those cars. I think..& this is strictly my opinion..that a dealer who throws the keys to a Busa or R1 or similar bike to a newly licensed rider isnt doing the sport any good at all. Fattening up his wallet & thats it. Its the same thing as handing a pissed off drunk a loaded gun...bad things will happen. Not saying these dealers shouldnt make a sale, but hows about using a little discretion & pointing the newbie towards the Blast, or the GS500E or the EX500, etc etc. They are less apt to kill themselves in the short term, much more likely at a future date to trade the smaller bike in on a larger model, etc. if the dealers were smart about it instead of selling the guy what he wants right away you sell them a nice smaller beginner geared bike & then later sell em the big one... 2 sales per customer instead of 1. Look at what CJ & a number of other people here..hell my wife is included...have done. Bought the Blast because its a good beginner bike, beat it for a year..if you do crash so what, its cheap, ez to fix, etc..& then trade it in for a bigger bike. Granted its not always the same dealer who gets both sales, but everyone benefits. Thats one of the problems with this country, everyone is so fixated on bigger is better & supersize everything. We dont get all the cool smaller 400 & 500cc bikes that sell overseas because of it. Its one of the reasons right now that Buell sells 63% of their bikes produced to overseas markets. They arent as hung up on the big cc deal. A lot of the countries have tiered licensing & both the riders & the dealers benefit from it. View it as a government intrusion all you want, but if the people wont police thenselves over something so simple maybe they should have it forced upon them? You dont go out & get a pilots license & then jump right behind the controls of a 747 bound for Spain. You need years of flying & extra schooling before you can handle the big planes. Why? Flying a plane is flying a plane, makes no difference big or small right? What right does the government have to tell you that you cant go to Gateway tech, get your pilot license & then fly for United airlines the next day? Is it government intrusion or are they simply stating that you need more training to ensure you are proficient before we let you play with the big dogs? And dont try the old "passengers lives are at risk" bit. You cant even get a job flying a UPS plane which has no passengers without the required hrs. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Dyna...Put the Tai Stick out. A 600 race replica inline 4 is a great entry level bike...with a governor that prevents you from hitting the power band! Hell, with that handicap, even a Blast will whoop it's ass in the 1/4 mile!!! | ||
| Court |
>>>>Flying a plane is flying a plane, makes no difference big or small right? Your idea is right and I agree. However, it does make a difference. Once you get into larger craft (think higher powered if you want to do the motorcycle comparison) the government licensing folks require "type ratings". My basic license simply says "SEL" for Single Engine Land. I can operate a host of things from a 172RG, to a Saratoga, A36 and a Piper Seneca. But, if I wanted to step into a Lear 60 or a 747 (to cite your example) I would have to have a "type rating" demonstrating a level of understanding and competancy, be tested, certified and my license would be endorsed to reflect that TYPE of aircraft. Not argumentative, just adding TO Dyna's point. Court | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I have been lurking on this one for a while and now will describe my point of view on this one. Up this way on the ISLAND we ahve a somewhat graduated license system in that once you hit your 16th birthday you can apply to have either a Motorcycle or Car Permit. I am going the bike way now. If your 16 you can trailer your bike have a licensed operator drive it to the local Department of Motor Vehicles for a "Skills Test". This test consists of driving through a series of 4 meter/12ft pylons then drive straight on a white line and stop at a mark. After that you then have to perform a written test (rules of the road) and a vision test. You then have a Motorcycle Permit and can operate anything from a 50cc to a sky is the limit bike as long as there is a licensed operator of 4 years driving behind you in either a car or another bike. 9 months later you can apply for your full license and if you pass the road test then you got it. The second way is to take the Newfoundland Safety Council (referred to as the MSF course) which consists of 4hrs of class room (they even let me teach that) and 16hrs of on bike training. Now if your 16yrs old or don't have a car license already you still must wait 9 mths, if you do have a license for the required number of years you only have to wait 30 days to go for the road test. It seems that ever since the Government moved the car license back to 16 there have been a lot less kids going for their bike license at 16. I guess that they don't need a bike if they can drive the family car. We have just recently concluded the bike training season and found that the average age for bike training was around 35ish and about 40% were women. A number of years ago the average age was in the late teens and mostly guys - go figure!!! I ride a lot with Sportbikers and not so much anymore with the cruiser guys but have found that the majority of the sportbikers are in the age of 19-26 who have not taken the MSF course and they are the ones who are going down. They get the highpowered bikes as they are much cheaper than cars for both insurance and cost. The guys on the cruisers that are going down are the ones who hit 40ish, got some disposable income and decide I am going out to buy the biggest Harley I can find and ride it. The ones that go down usually have their accidents 10 miles from their home and the incidents are minor. I can't remember the last time I saw a gal go down on a bike - seems they are much more responsible than us hooligan guys when riding. The question are they better riders or the gals just don't push the limit as some guys do? I remember one guy bought a new Electra Glide rode it home and on the way home mis-negotiated a turn (did not realize how push steering worked along with target fixation) and drove straight off the highway into a bog/marsh area - well the bog saved the bike apart from a few scratches. He did our course and after the curves exercise made the comment that he now knew what caused him to go off the road that day. I only wish the Government put displacement/horsepower limits on our tiered licensing as most of the accidents I see are the inexperienced riders who get higher powered bikes then grab a handful of throttle - now there are exceptions to every rule as we are all unique and different but for the most part I am for the tiered licensing systems. Oh well just my thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Bomber |
Dyna -- put the stick out and bring it south, NOW! although the dealership is likely one of the best places (in theory) for skills-policing, expecting a person who make the mortgage nut on commissions to steer a new customer from a Mille (around, what, 12K cash dollars american?) to a GS500 (4K?) is wishful thinking . . .. I'm not saying sale people are not ethical (I know too many who are), but it ain't good to put folks in a bind like that and expect them to take the high road always, espeically at the expense of their family's needs/wants/desires ah . . .a good single malt with a thai stick . . .now THERE"S the start of a good spin-wrenches-on-Nevco's-scooter session! | ||
| Nevco1 |
ah . . .a good single malt with a thai stick . . .now THERE"S the start of a good spin-wrenches-on-Nevco's-scooter session! Why do I have a feeling that my scoot will look like a 1960's VW Luv Van?  } | ||
| Bomber |
more like Belushi's caddy in animal house! | ||
| Nevco1 |
ROAD TRIP !!! Now that was a car. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Newfie...How about tiered licensing for cars too. I am confident you can find some stats to support it. Everyone starts out in a 4cylinder, automatic sedan designed by Ralph Nader. Then progresses gradually through the ranks to a Ford Taurus. Anything greater than a Taurus would incur additional classroom, range hours, testing and of course licensing fees (read: more taxes). Just an idea. Let me know what you think. | ||
| Mikej |
Forget that, start them off in an older single cylinder 3-wheel car. Their first problem to overcome will be in finding one in drivable condition that is affordable to own. Then they can graduate up to one of the little two-seater multi-cylinder buggies like an Isetta, or if they've maintained a pristine driving record with no tip-overs maybe a 3-cylinder Geo. or an early Honda CVCC (or whatever the models were known as). If they are really good maybe they can have a Nash Metropolitan or remotely possible an Amphicar. All fun cars, all low power, all able to get one into major trouble. You don't need to go fast to die, and tiered licensing is no guarantee against stupidity. What's the current count of airline pilots who have been reprimanded for being drunk while in or on the way to the cockpit? | ||
| Mikej |
Ralph Nader should be forced to drive a Corvair for 12,000 miles in a 12-month period just to prove how inane he is/was. | ||
| Bomber |
I leasrned to drive in a turbo corvair . . . oversteer rules! | ||
| Nevco1 |
You don't need to go fast to die, and tiered licensing is no guarantee against stupidity. Thanks Mike...That's what I took way to many words to try to say. Must have gotten all hung up on the Big Brother thing. Damn, I hate socialism. | ||
| Mikej |
I had a Corvair once, sat up on log blocks for about a year while I tinkered with it, non-turbo dual single barrel carbs, missing a few parts, 4 door sedan. Never did get it running. Found a funny rolled up cigarette under the rear seat that a friend quickly ran away with. Never did find out what he did with it.  He wound up moving up to north central Washington on some property he got from his dad. Built himself a teepee to live in, eventually added a wooden porch, then an attached outhouse, and section by section wound up building a whole cabin and eventually took down the teepee. He and his ladyfriend/wife had a habit of not wearing any clothing while in their garden cultivating their main vegetable crops and were known to do a fast crawl/walk/run behind the corn stalks into the house whenever a car approached. Heard he once shot the front fender of a real estate agent's SUV because the r.e. agent was always ripping up the dirt road in the winter so bad that my friend couldn't make it up the hill in his 2wd pickup. Last I heard he still had the pan/shovel in the dogleg frame, not sure if his ladyfriend was still around. All this heard indirectly from other friends over the years as I've never had a chance to go visit his homestead in the hills of the Okanogan country. Not sure exactly where his place is anyway, but figure it won't take much asking around the various towns to find someone who knows where it is, I'd probably start with the real estate offices and work from there. ... Uh, what was the topic? Oh yeah, the corvair, I think I eventually sold it for $10 to someone and broke even on the deal. Never did get it running. Okay, I think I'll go do something now.  | ||
| Ezblast |
Man I read this thread and feel the wind! The fact is that cars are a lot safer than motorcycles, and there are no big brothers around here - just folk alarmed by a growing trend. The True point of this thread is that if we don't do something soon to lead in helping to offset this trend then the General Public will. Thinking nothing will happen and comparing a motorcycle to a car is foolish. My opinion is you've already had too much stick and scotch - lol - anyway - this isn't a matter of what if, as it is an issue of when it happens and what form will it take being the reality. Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ  | ||
| Nevco1 |
just folk alarmed by a growing trend Interesting. Just a few questions...(not meant to be a personal challenge, just doing some fact finding) What do you know of motorcycle accident statistics objectively since the activity began and why do you think there is a statistical trend now after all these years? How long have you been riding and why do you talk about governing larger motorcycles when you ride what is referred to as an entry level bike? Why do you think anyone on this board is an expert and why do you think that we have the answers? Why do you think that this subject has not been addressed with the collective interests of all motorcyclists by the AMA? Where were you when the major insurance companies refused to insure sport bikes and were you a part of the problem or part of the cure? | ||
| Nevco1 |
EZ... And lastly, if you are so compelled to impose regulation on other Motorcyclists, WHY ARE YOUR BIKES SO HEAVILY MODIFIED AND DO NOT CONFORM TO EITHER FEDERAL OR CALIFORNIA STANDARDS!!! | ||
| Ezblast |
First - I am not compelled - if you actually read what I write you will find that I am against regulations - as my bikes attest - lol - but I figure it is only a matter of time as the statistics grow. Second - These figures can be found on many insurance sites and have been used as a basis for simular discusions on other forums. Third - who and what and where and how long about me does not matter - I could be Joe Public asking the same question. Fourth - experts - as in experienced, and the reason I'm asking is because we have an invested interest in what ever does happen. Why the trend is growing - is self evedent. Finally - my bike is my bike and I'm happy with it, perhaps some day another. Its none of your business if it was a scooter, or a gixxer. If the AMA or other board is addressing this issue then they are being very quiet about it and I for one would be glad to hear what they have to say on it. Go back to your scotch and stick - the problem will not go away with the slaying of the messenger, and it sounds like you really don't care about our rights. I'm not here to argue with you but to see if there is some form of middle ground that we as riders would prefer and rally behind, so that such an idea could be put foward instead letting the General Public do it for us - lol Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ | ||
| Newfie_buell |
You know SCREECH is much smoother than Scotch!!!! All are welcome to a drink - if you come here | ||
| Blake |
Friggin socialism. Legislating safety because some are concerned that other adults are not capable of controlling themselves or of acting in a mature manner flies directly in the face of a little thing I know called FREEDOM. I'd rather die young and free being stupid and immature than live to a ripe old age being told that I cannot purchase and ride the motorcycle of my choice. The only prerequisite to owning a motorcycle should be a valid license. I don't even believe in mandatory insurance, one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated upon American citizens. Friggin socialism. | ||
| Mikej |
It is often the case that those writing the restrictive regulations/legislation often make themselves exempt from same. Often people in support of said legislation are clueless when this fact is pointed out to them. | ||
| Newblaster |
All--Reread EZ's posts. You will see that he is not one of the people crying to the government "Save me from myself!" Maybe you guys don't see the same trend in your areas as we have here in the SF area. If not, then that's great. He feels the same way you guys do, he's against legislation, but here, there are fatalities every day from kids on superbikes. It's only a matter of time before we get some stupid law banning anything but cruisers, or bikes under 500cc, or other such idiocy. He's just trying to see if there is grassroots support for a movement among us, the affected parties, for something less restrictive, something we can live with. Just clarifying the issue, it seems to have moved away from the original posts on the Thumper board. I'll go back to lurking quietly now. | ||
| Ezblast |
Blake - I concur, and you can pry my cold dead fingers from my guns, however, that is the point. Who likes the current gun laws? - I don't and I don't think to many other firearm collectors/enthusiests do either. I'd like to not see this happen to my new most favorite hobby - motorcycling - I'm sure you feel the same. You can lead or be lead - no skin off my nose. Labeling something with a negitive conotation does not make it go away or solve the problem - in fact - it usually makes it worse. A direction is what is needed - I see this and so I enquire - at least that is doing something. Sitting on the fence, chewing, and spitting and singing I want Freedom will get you nothing but a sore throat. And if they ever outlaw sport bikes for being too dangerious, then there would a whole world of folks wishing another alternative was found. Alarmist? - Perhaps a bit, however, I figure if it can happen to guns, then it can happen to motorcycles and am just trying to see if there are alternatives that we could live with. A bit what ifish, however, its something we as a community should be working on and discussing before options we don't like are put before us as choices, and our voice then means nothing being a minority. Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ | ||
| Blake |
If people killing themselves on sportbikes is a problem, the high insurance rates should help take care of it. I don't see it as a big problem or one that is on the radar screens of concerned fearnicks and safety freaks. The same people killing themselves on sportbikes would find a way to do the same on a 30 HP machine. If it truly is a problem there are way to many other options before getting to legislating self control, like tougher licensing requirments. It would be completely and utterly unconstitunial illegalize a mode of transportation in an attemtp to protect motorcyclists from themselves. Ain't gonna happen. Ain't in any way the same type of scenario as the gun issue. | ||
| Ezblast |
Really? - how many automatics do you own? - lol - it is very much a simmular issue. I hope every day it never goes the way of gun control. I'm not nescessarily talking about any form of legislation. Thats not true about there being other options, because that is precisely what I'm asking about and this is what I've been offered so far. Saying something won't ever happen will not stop it from happening - only leave you unprepared. thats why I brought it up - personally I don't give a rats ass, however, it is an issue looming before us in the distance, and if we were to have an acceptable idea to offer when that inevitable question surfaced -then that would be to our benefit. Got Thump?! Just Blasting on the Dark side! EZ  | ||
| Nevco1 |
EZ...Hmmm, a gun guy too. I liked your response to the questions. Now, it will be greatly appreciated if you would direct me to the websites with the statistics. Thanks Bill | ||
| Blake |
The gun control issue claims to be about the protection of people from other people with guns, a misguided anti-crime issue. Your imagined sport bike ban issue would be about protecting people from themselves; a safety issue. Two TOTALLY different things. A HELL of a lot more people die due to alcohol and automobiles than on motorcycles. Are you worried they will ban alcohol and automobiles? Banning sport bikes? Ain't gonna happen. Not saying there aren't people out there who would try to do so, just that it ain't going to happen. | ||
| Mikej |
The gun control issue is often about protecting people from themselves. A recent interview where a woman's parents were murdered said that if her parents had been armed then the murderer would have had another gun to use, the concept that her parents would have been able to use a firearm in self defense was totally out of the daughter's realm of comprehension. It's the old "don't fight back or you'll just make your attacker madder" mentality. How many lives would be saved if they brought back prohibition? What happened the last time they tried that? What is going on today in "dry" counties? If people want something bad enough there is no way to stop them from trying to attain it. Perhaps it really comes down to personal responsibility. Imagine a world with no speed limits and no traffic laws. For awhile there would be caos (sp?), but after awhile things would settle down some, and there would always be people pushing the envelope, and there will always be others pushing them back. No speed limit, no liability, what's to stop a Kenworth driver from wandering into the path of a sportbike doing 165mph down I-80 across Utah in such a scenario? No rules also applies to staying within a lane and driving in a set direction down a predetermined proper side of the road. Today we have people breaking the law every day. Running stop signs, exceeding posted speed limits, driving the wrong way down one-way streets to get to a parking lot instead of driving around the block, making a u-turn on a freeway to take an offramp they missed instead of taking the next offramp. All additional laws do is control the people who don't ultimately need more controls placed on them. |
