| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
Regardless of all of this- bear in mind what EZblast a blast owner/enthusiast, posted: "check the warrentee for fine print relating to cyl and piston - mine was not warrented} | ||
| Alligood |
Guys, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the details about the fine print, but the dealer and Buell agree that the bike is within the warranty period, irrespective of whether we got any paperwork with it. The local shop called me today and said the service manager has contacted both Buell and the engine manufacturer to determine whether either or both will accept a warranty repair. They say they are struggling with the question of what happened to the primary oil, the lack of which led to engine damage. The dealer of origin checked the oil at the 1k service. At some point between then and now, according to the local shop, the oil was lost. I have to say I believe the local shop is acting in good faith. They said they wouldn't honor the warranty without proof of 1k service, I provided the proof, and now they are exploring the warranty claim as they said they would. They didn't need any special paperwork, nor did Buell. They looked at the VIN and said yep, this bike is within the warranty period. Now I am waiting to see what develops. | ||
| Xbduck |
That is very true Tramp, warranties can and often do spell out exclusions. I think he is taking a very good approach to this at this time. Keeping everything documented and letting the dealer lead the way, so long as real progress is being made. (Message edited by xbduck on July 22, 2008) | ||
| Tramp |
Alligood- I think it's time that you find another dealer service facility for a second opinion. I'm concerned about this facility's claim that low primary oil led to engine failure. In case (no pun intended) you're unaware, the primary in your Buell is an entirely separate component from the engine, with unlike oil. Low primary oil would lead to premature clutch failure (to the point of near-unrideability) long before it would affect engine components. As much as you'd like to believe this dealer is acting in good faith, everything you've presented shows otherwise. Just call Buell and ask them to recommend another servicing dealership. Further interaction with your present dealer, I imagine, will likely end in tears. | ||
| Alligood |
The following is from the service manager:. Again, it appears to show good faith. I appreciate their position with regard to the primary oil, but I have to say there were not any unusual sounds/smells, etc. prior to the failure. I should mention that I have have been riding for 30+ years, so I believe I would have recognized impending trouble: Hello John, If this was a warranty issue, we would gladly warranty the repair,the bike has not leaked the fluid out.The fluid simply was not put in the bike some where along the line.I have been in contact with Buell to see if they will give some assistance on the repair.We cannot warranty something that was not a manufacturing problem,we have guide lines that we, as a dealer have to follow.This bike had to have been making noise for a while from looking at the damage that has been caused.We want to help get your son back on the road,so we will see what Buell can do to help if they can.I will be back to work on Thursday,and let you know if I have something from Buell then. | ||
| Ulywife |
Sorry if I missed this, but how many miles are currently on the Blast? | ||
| Alligood |
The bike has about 5,500 miles. | ||
| Tramp |
Alligood- If you really interpret this as good-faith on the part of the dealer, you're on your own. Low primary oil would NOT lead to (from your earlier post): " ...piston, con rod, stator, flywheel, main bearing, and some other pieces that I have forgotten. " Further, low primary oil would not lead to a $2500 repair bill. It appears that, regardless of this info, you're going to accept the service center's actions as "good faith". One can only lead a horse to water, so i wish you luck with this service scam.} | ||
| Thumper74 |
I'm with Tramp on this one... Your engine oil and transmission/primary lubricant are in two different cases. They do not intermix unless there is an internal seal failure and that usually lends itself to the engine being low and the transmission/primary fluid being high as the transmission is open bath and the engine is under pressure. Naturally, the oil follows the path of least resistance into the transmission. The only way for your fluid to be low without any external leaks would be for it to have been low during the initial refill at the 1,000 mile service. If you take it back to the Dealer that performed that service and ask them to cover the engine when the transmission/primary fluid was low, they'll laugh at you. Either this Dealer is the worse dealer I've seen or you're messing with us.... | ||
| Tramp |
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| Ezblast |
I am pretty sure I know what happened - a lean condition developed, holing the piston, spreading metal everywhere - this scenario is way too much like mine to be much of any thing else - sigh Das Boot strikes again. EZ | ||
| Tramp |
An all-too common condition in MANY single-lunger thumpers, unfortunately. Gotta love this dealership claiming low primary fluid caused it. | ||
| Thumper74 |
So... is the boot covered? Failure to the engine caused by the failure of covered component really should be covered. The Customer would not have anyway to know that it was lean if the bike was un-modified | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Carb mounting boot you mean? | ||
| Thumper74 |
Exactly. My logic is, realizing that the jug and piston are not covered, that if the carb mounting boot was the initial failure that caused damage to the jug/piston... The damage was caused by the failure of a covered component. The difficult part is convincing others of that. | ||
| Alligood |
Several mysteries explained: When we had the fail-to-start problem, it appeared to be the starter. We brought the bike into a non-Harley shop. They ordered a replacement starter. At some point prior to actually installing the starter, they drained the primary oil, unbeknownst to us. They also reported zero compression, based on lack of resistance. At that time, they advised us to bring the bike to the Harley shop. So...The bike was never ridden without primary oil, but the Harley shop had no way of knowing this. The top end damage was written up on the initial report based on a non tear-down assumption made by the non-Harley shop - when they rolled the engine with the starter, there was no compression resistance, so they concluded the piston was holed. (We now know that the sprocket was freewheeling on the flywheel shaft due to worn shaft splines, hence no apparent compression). So...This information was passed on (by us) to the Harley shop and they wrote it up on their service request form. The actual damage is all in the bottom end -the flywheel shaft splines are worn away, leaving the sprocket to freewheel. The cause of the spline wear is the only thing that is not currently clear. So... -the Harley shop wrote up the problem as we described it. -the Harley shop did a tear-down and found the flywheel shaft spline wear. -the Harley shop kept the discussion open with me throughout the process, and was willing to puzzle out the sequence of events with me. -the Harley shop is pursuing a warranty claim for us. All-in-all, I think the Harley shop did a pretty darn good job in continuing communicate with me to work through the issues surrounding our warranty claim, even though there were questionable circumstances surrounding the primary oil, and they were acting on incomplete or erroneous information supplied by us. I'm giving the Harley shop an A for customer service at this point. Lessons I learned: 1.Bring the bike to the Harley shop first. 2.Establish the facts in person rather than by phone communication. The attached picture shows the flywheel shaft spline wear. The puzzling thing is that the sprocket internal splines (not pictured) show no visible wear.  (Message edited by alligood on July 24, 2008) (Message edited by alligood on July 24, 2008) (Message edited by alligood on July 24, 2008) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Alligood- Wow, that story took an unexpected turn. So, are they fixing it under warranty? | ||
| Benm2 |
I'd guess the sprocket was replaced, the nut put back on, and the bike sold to the unsuspecting. The nut that connects the primary to the crank needs to see some serious torque AND careful assembly to stay tight. If it is allowed to get loose, the bike starts to sound funny. If you keep running it that way, I would expect that the battering would mash up the primary sprocket AND the crank end. The sprocket is a cheap part to replace, especially if the primary cover is already off to replace the starter. | ||
| Tramp |
"I'm giving the Harley shop an A for customer service at this point. " }seriously- I get it...it's a joke....you can stop, now. | ||
| Alligood |
Guys, Kidding aside, has anyone seen this kind of damage before? Hughlysses - yes, the service manager believes Buell will come through with a replacement. Tramp - they're still working with me, so I'm giving 'em credit for that. Call me an optimist, but hey, when I met the manager today he could not have been nicer or more encouraging. When they made the first report to us after the tear-down, my son took the call - my wife and I were on vacation on South Padre Island. My son is a great rider, but a mechanic?...not so much. When I returned from vacation, the Harley service manager was at a show in Vegas. Bad timing, benefit of the doubt extended on both sides. Today was the first opportunity for the two of us to speak in person. Benm2 - You may be right. I'm curious - in your scenario, what would have beat the bejeebers out of the splines in the first place? (Message edited by alligood on July 24, 2008) | ||
| Swampy |
Alligood, I have had that exact problem, the crankshaft nut came loose, and took all the spline off the crankshaft. If I would have taken pictures, it would have looked exactly like that. How did I fix it you ask? I cleaned everything up, made all the adjustments that could be made, shift pawl, champhered the stator wire hold down plate, locktited the shift drum retaining bolt, reassembled the primary, and torqued everything back together........ Then I mig welded the nut to the shaft and the nut to the sprocket hub. And you know what? It was still working after 12,000 miles. It probably would have went longer but the lower rod bearing started knocking, no fault to the weld job. You see, a very long time ago, very far away, the oil pump drive gear failed and the Big Kid rode it for a few miles with the oil light on not knowing that it would ruin the engine......but thanks to the marvels of modern chemistry, the synthetic oil protected the internals allowing another 15,000 miles of severe service. So my recommendation, Clean, reassemble, weld, ride. Its only 30 horse power, the weld can take it | ||
| Swampy |
Oh, by the way, when mine came apart, the spline was gone from the shaft and the sprocket was like new. The nut probably just got loose, and being a single, it was hard to tell good clatter from bad clatter. | ||
| Alligood |
Hey Swampy, Your fix sounds great to me. If they don't come through, I'll do just that. | ||
| Ezblast |
Wow - I thought that was only happening to the twins - terif - something else to watch for. EZ (Message edited by ezblast on July 25, 2008) | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Unfortunately the "flywheel" splines are harder than the end of the crank shaft. I've got an S1 in the garage that had the primary nut come loose. The crank splines were really hammered, about 1/4 is missing. I used lots of JB Weld, a new nut (after repairing the crank threads with a 18TPI thread file, lots of Loctite red and 300 ft lb of torque. Next step is to replace the crank... It is a classic you know! Brad | ||
| Alligood |
Unfortunately the "flywheel" splines are harder... ok, I see what you did there... I shall refer to them as crank splines going forward. | ||
| Tramp |
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| Bluzm2 |
John, No ding intended! Technically it's the engine sprocket but it does have the rotor attached to it. That kind of makes it a flywheel. I figured "flywheel" would be a bit clearer to most, guess not for Tramp.... A quick update, I did the "fix" to the S1 crank. It seems to be working so far. Not many miles on it yet but do far so good! Brad | ||
| Iamike |
If you don't cross your i's and dot your t's, Tramp will be sure to point it out. | ||
| Tramp |
How does that stupid as post add to this thread? a guy aasked for warranty advice, and I offered suggestions. Concision can make or break a warranty claim, Iamike. Take your cowardly, pissy little vendetta elsewhere. |
