| Author | Message | ||
     Regkittrelle |
Moooo. | ||
| Crusty |
So tell me Reg; why does the "Fan Boy" aspect around here gag you? Badweb is a Buell Enthusiast's forum. Why do you consider strong enthusiasm to be a bad thing? Should we, perhaps,be as negative toward the brand as Cecil or Dyna? Should we try to make a major issue out of the fact that the ZTL front wheel concept is potentially just marketing hype, and that there is no real benefit in having perimeter mounted brake rotors. Then turn around and condone Yamaha's intentional lies (and doctored tachometers) about how their new R6 turns 17,000 RPM because when it was discovered by the press, they offered to buy back the bikes form the suckers who believed their lies. Sometimes, we are "over the top" in our enthusiasm. I consider that to be a good thing. When people are enthusiastic about a Marque, they can take that to new highs. Look at the success of Team Elves. Or, if you prefer, look at the success of Dr. John Wittner's Moto Guzzi Roadracer with Doug Brauneck riding, with the Guzzi Owners Club digging into their own pockets to help fund the effort. I'm enthusiastic about Buells for several reasons. One of the biggest reasons is the people I've met who are also Buell enthusiasts. Some of the finest human beings I've ever met are Buell enthusiasts. It's a shame you find us nauseating, but that's your loss. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Far be it from me to speak for Reg, but I have noticed that there does tend to be a dogpile effect when constructive criticism is leveled toward BMC. Your loyalty, expertise, and time on scene all get called into question simply for questioning the decisions made by Erik and the Elves. Trolling with no desire for constructive criticism is ugly and unattractive, but attacking the messenger simply because you don't like the message is even uglier. To me this is the face of "Fan Boy". I'd like to hear Reg's take, for sure. | ||
| Slaughter |
Y'know... on my sig line on the Socalsvriders.com board - I sign off with "I'm a 67%-er. We're ALL average, you can't kick ALL our asses" | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Nice! Love it!  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Kool-aid, anyone? | ||
| Regkittrelle |
All good points, Crusty. My reaction to things, in general,reflects who I am. When I come across behaviors that run contrary to this, I react negatively, i.e., my gag reflex. I am a relatively reserved (don't confuse that with conservative) person not prone to gushing or adulation. This because to do so, I feel, debases me. And while the list of those who are more accomplished, better people than I is endless, it is not a list that force ranks me to the bottom. I very much believe in mutual respect; when I get it, I give it. Now, here's the important part: This applies only to me insomuch as I do not judge others by my behavior. So, when I say the Fan Boy action gags me, I mean it. This doesn't mean that I view the other person in a lesser light, it just means that I couldn't act like that. And please, Crusty,don't build a case against me based upon something I didn't say. I don't consider strong enthusiasm a bad thing. In fact, I don't want to particularly be around people who lack an enthusiasm, a passion if you would, for at least SOMETHING. By implication you've lined me up against the Elves, Dr. John and Brauneck. What the hell, why not throw in John Britten too for good measure? I don't lack for enthusiasm or respect re the Buell marque but, as I've mentioned probably too many times hereabouts, I view the company as, well, a company. Its reason for being is to sell motorcycles to us... to take money from our pockets and put it into theirs. As a quid pro quo situation I have the right to expect value for my money. If that value is not forthcoming then Houston, we have a problem. Do Cecil and Dyna bother you? Why? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Reg, I have a problem respecting Harley because they don't seem to be able to build a world class performance engine, which to me is a big part of a motorcycle. I'm not saying the fastest or lightest engine, just something in the ball bark. The Superbike effort was just embarrasing and the V-Rod was overweight and oversized, as well as underpowered. I want to see an American company do better, that's all. I also struggle with the business model of resisting new design to milk old tooling. Take my XB engine, for example. If they would just use plain bearings and get rid of the giant rocker arms and very heavy lifters, it would probably rev another thousand rpm. Little things like the big steel locking plate on the drive gear could have come from the Briggs and Stratton factory. Now, I do love the character of my bike. I also think that the XB engine is very well worked out everywhere fuel and air flow, and performs extremely well for what it is. My struggle is with Harley is prmarily the lack of initiative to improve things with a clean slate design, and doing what it takes to make it work. Now Harley has the black leather and t-shirt crowd nailed better than anyone. In fact, in terms of making money, they probably just had one of the best 20 years one could imagine. But, that whole "scene" is not what I like about motorcycling. I get excited about mechanical "stuff", and the Harleys leave me disapointed. Buell has done really well with chassis innovations, and if an in-house engine were just as fresh as a Buell chassis, it would be very impressive. (Message edited by spatten1 on July 12, 2008) | ||
| Spatten1 |
I don't lack for enthusiasm or respect re the Buell marque but, as I've mentioned probably too many times hereabouts, I view the company as, well, a company. Its reason for being is to sell motorcycles to us... to take money from our pockets and put it into theirs. As a quid pro quo situation I have the right to expect value for my money. If that value is not forthcoming then Houston, we have a problem. Way too rational. By the way, I wish I could write as well as you. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Scott, I hold many of the same complaints about Harley. Change is a very touchy subject at the Mothership. Recognizing that their legacy dictates certain designs, and that there ROI requirements rule over all decisions, when a change of design--- be it a part or a complete motorcycle--- is contemplated it must run a very intense gauntlet of approval. The belief is that, above all, the faithful must not be offended. If you look at the current top-selling motorcycles in this country you'll find the FLHTCU and the FLHX... just about as typical Harley as you can get. These are the motorcycles of The Faithful. They are also very good motorcycles, given the competition. To propose that the FL be changed in any way is to strongly suggest to many internally that you been smoking a bit of the wacky weed. "Why in the world would you want to kill the cash cow?" Yet, as big a seller as the FL platform is, it is long overdue for replacement; Despite a very good motor (96ci), performance is just OK, the bike has gained too much weight for the drive train, and the chassis... well, it can get a little strange at the higher speeds. It's shelf life has expired. The V-Rod is the logical next step for the FL, but its lack of sales momentum in this country has, I believe, the Product development folks more than a bit leery about an FL-version. Yet, it has to happen. And I'm going to guess (and that's all it is) that a 2-litre, FL V-Rod exists and has been tested. Someone just has to bite the bullet and release it. Given recent history, we'll probably see it first in Europe. Don't, by the way, sell the V-Rod short. I think the platform has been mismanaged, but the motor is a world-class, real deal. If I had to point to the single biggest mistake I'd say it was the delay in putting mid-point foot pages on the 'Rod. Sounds like a small thing, but the forward controls that the motorcycles was introduced with turned off a big portion of the new market Harley was looking for. And boy, are you ever right about milking the old tooling! As I mentioned I have a Road Glide. It is my third one, having bought my first in '99. At that time I, and most other owners, had a problem with the gasket that interfaces the two fairing pieces: The ends would would continually pop out adjacent the windshield. My second one was the same way, and so it is with my third one. Mention this to a 'Glide owner and they'll know immediately what you're talking about. That is just one of many examples of Harley refusing to change a known bad design. The idea of a design revision is an anathema. Harley-Davidson does not lack for engineering talent. The problem is that they must work with a very narrow set of design parameters (and industry-leading ROI demands). The last clean slate design that Harley tried was the V-Rod, and we know where that got 'em! It's understandable that they might be a little gun shy on the new stuff (but not acceptable). Times have changed. The Harley market is suffering like every other one except Ducati and Triumph. Good dealers are doing OK, marginal dealers are hurting, and bad dealers are in serious trouble... and the stock is sinking. This is the worst situation that Harley has seen in more than 15 years. Harley can stick its collective heads in the sand and hope that things improve, or they can do something. I'm betting on the latter, but doubt that we'll see anything significant for a model year or two. I do think we'll see a paring of the models. If my name were Dyna... the bike, not the man... I'd be worried. Everyone will also be watching the XR1200 once it's intro'ed here. If it succeeds it will probably be with a younger demographic, something H-D's been trying to reach for years. | ||
| Danger_dave |
I like Harleys a lot. I think they are great motorcycles and a lot of that has to do with how they look and make me feel. I have no qualms about it. One of the rea$on I don't own one i$ that my media gig mean$ I can borrow one any time, but most of the blow-hards I encounter who gob off about Hogs have NEVER actually ridden one. It's usually jealou$y driven unfounded rubbish. | ||
| Guell |
If i could afford a harley right now i would be buying one. Fit and finish is excellent on them, worlds ahead of most metric cruisers i think. Street bob in denim black! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Guell.. I did a write-up for the "Enthusiast" on the Street Bob. I did not expect to like it... but loved it. What surprised me the most was the excellent handling , all things considered. I could own one. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I can remember when I was the only one in town with a Harley(s) for many years and other than a few dressers, the only one in the surrounding area. Now the place stinks of Harley's....not a bad thing........but the riders are so phony, pretending to be cool with all the garb and lifestyle crap. They see me on my 71 Super glide and they don't even know what it is....let alone that I'm not "dressed" properly to ride the stupid looking thing. I can never figure out why it is SO important to "look the look". Somebody aught to tell them they don't have a life. I'm still the only one around with Buells and I get no disrespect....in fact the bare skinned sport bike riders think I must be some sort of dead serious rider with my full gear on all the time. Most always get a wave from them...and a returned one. What pisses me off the most is forward controls.......or the "gotta have those to be cool" syndrome. Why would you want to look like you just got a speculum shove in your crotch? If you want a chopper look to your ride, get a damned chopper..........don't pretend your FX or Dyna makes you a bad ass chopper rider, just because it has forward controls. On my third hand, I know and have rode with a few genuine Harley riders. They know the bike and how to ride. Pretending at nothing. Their bikes are dirty and the leathers are well aged......they've been around the block........ and it shows. Those cats are the cool ones. | ||
| Ducxl |
What pisses me off the most is forward controls.......or the "gotta have those to be cool" syndrome. feet pointing completely utterly perpendicular to the bike.That is some funny stuff  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Even if you are a black sheep, you are still sheep  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSY0nCuRhHA | ||
| M1combat |
For me it's not a "Harley" thing. It's a person thing. Just about the only sets of riders that I can pretty well call as being assholes (on their bike... they're probably just fine at their day job) are the guys who take their hogs out for holidays and the guys who ride metric cruisers JUST because they aren't Harleys... and they're assholes about it. I don't mind the guys who only ride on weekends or Holidays and I don't mind the metric cruiser guys, but don't be an ••••••• just because you're riding. Be an ••••••• because you're an ••••••• and you'll have my respect. Those are the two groups that bug me and yeah... the bikes they ride suck. I've got no problem with Harleys at all. I grew up around them and some of the best times of my life were spent on the back of my Dad's heading to various runs when I was very young. Well OK, I have one problem with them... I'd end up grinding the pegs and half the primary/cam covers off if I decided to have fun on one. Other than that I don't mind the bikes or most of the people that ride them. "feet pointing completely utterly perpendicular to the bike.That is some funny stuff" So I suppose you ride with your heels on your pegs ? | ||
| Odinbueller |
One of the things that Harley-Davidson is absolutely trying to do is follow market demand. Look at the release of new models from 1999 up until now. I don't have the numbers but in these last 9 years, Harley-Davidson has introduced and discontinued quite a few models, including the Softail Standard! Harley-Davidson is trying to keep up with the changing tastes of their core customers, along with trying to draw in the younger crowd. They have this whole new wing of new & existing models called "Dark Customs". It's like the anti-chrome people got to make their own line of bikes. I applaud the effort, but it's not for me. Harley-Davidson is absolutely trying to bring in new riders and keep the existing ones happy. Are they holding Buell back? I think in a way, yes, they are. I don't believe it's intentional, but I think that Harley-Davidson needs to re-visit their relationship with Buell and provide them with a bit more support. | ||
| Jramsey |
Dunno about Harleys suckin', but once dated a girl that I swear could suck start one.  | ||
| Igneroid |
Dunno about Harleys suckin', but once dated a girl that I swear could suck start one. I remember her, she was my first...uhhh...girlfriend, ya thats it. For practise, she would suck a golfball through a 50 ft garden hose. What was her name again?? | ||
| Jon |
Now here's a good thread. Gotta go back and read all the responses, but first, let me greet Reg and say, "Howdy"! Wifey and I just got back from a 3 day double date with another couple on our BMW 1100RT's. Based out of Groveland, we were all over Sonora, Twain Hart, Yosemite, etc. 450 miles and still had time for barbecued catfish, swimming in the Merced river and some good conversation. We saw countless bikes, 75% of which were Harleys. A lot of these guys had obviously been on the road a long time (windburned face, slept in clothes look, luggage etc) ...some were just tooling around in gym shorts. If Harley's sucked, we would have seen different. There are a lot of experienced riders who use them. People that ride a long way a long time. You can't argue with the testimony of the consumers. I think Harley is getting better and stronger every year. From the standpoint of mechanical improvements and design development they have been relentless. Someday for me perhaps. But I think that's a way's off. Too many bikes in the garage as it is. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
The moment I let someone tell me what bike I should be riding, where I should ride, how often, what I should wear, is the moment that they are paying for the bike, my gear, my gas, and my protective gear. Other wise a good dose of STFU is in order; and I will see you out where the world is bendy and dirty, because if it were flat and straight we would all ride the same damn cookie cutter bike anyways. There's a really good pic of the bike covered in caked on splattered filthy chunky mud that should go here, I am sure you have all seen it | ||
| Dynasport |
NM (Message edited by DynaSport on July 13, 2008) | ||
| Guell |
i thought that was a pic of mud with some bike parts thrown in... | ||
| Crusty |
Dynasport; you're not Dyna. Dyna had an X1 that Grenaded, and his dealership screwed him and wouldn't warranty it. The Factory backed the dealer, and he had to file a Lemon Law suit to get justice.He was quite vocal about it, and developed an ugly attitude towards Buells. Dyna is also my friend. He is the kind of guy that will tell you how much Buells suck, while going out of his way to ensure that the 20th Anniversary came off well. He spent most of Daytona Bike Week '06 in the pits helping out Buell racers. A lot of people here don't like him for his negative comments about Buells. I like him because his actions speak a lot louder than his words. His words, however, can sometimes be over the top. (He secretly wants to get another Buell, but he doesn't know how, after all the negative things he's said about them.) | ||
| Court |
One thing I've learned over the years is when Reg talks I listen. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Excellent thread. Thank you Reg! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
D. Dave... What's your take on Harleys down under? I spent a bit of time in Australia several years ago (The Gold Coast... I could move there)but not enough to get a real feel for the motorcycle culture. also... I really enjoy the pix that you take. What's your camera? Dan: Thanks goes to your fellow contributors; I just light the fuse. Court: Yeah... right (LoL!) BTW; I noticed that the flash drive homage to Buell contained a pix of the original "Blue Groove", circa "98?" It showed you, Erik, Clement, and myself? Did that come from you? | ||
| Danger_dave |
>>What surprised me the most was the excellent handling ,<< Fat Bob is even more chuckable. | ||
| Glitch |
I've only skimmed the thread, so forgive me, or sue me, flame me...whatever... I think the hatred is more for the marque than the bike. H-D's marketing invokes passion, thing is, passion can be positive or negative. Reason I think so, is look at all the copy-cats that sell pretty well, and only get bad reviews from H-D riders. Me? I want one. A Road King. The local Police dept. sell off bikes every other year or so. I'll end up with one some day I'm sure. My 2ยข |
