| Author | Message | ||
     Tom_b |
Interesting thread. Reg is one of the few people here who could start off a thread saying harley suck and make it intelligent. Scott(spatten1) makes a point about how i feel about harley with some of the stupid mechanical cheapness. As well as slaughter about the doink lifestyle image. I love all motorcycles and have owned over 30 various models and makes. I don't care what a person is riding, as long as they are riding. I guess that is the problem i have with a lot of h/d riders. Currently have 4 riders and 2 projects in my garage. One of my dream bikes is a fully restored 38 UL. Get a load of H/D's "Dark Custom" marketing book and you will really want to puke. (Message edited by Tom_b on July 13, 2008) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Did that come from you? It did not. Jerry Haughton shot the photo, it's been around the net, not sure where it came from. It's good to see you here. I've become a bit scarce, been poking back around here since returning from Homecoming and was pleased to see you here. We agree on a lot of things which you typically express better than I. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
oh.. this is embarrassing. I got my "Bobs" mixed up. T'was the Fat one, NOT the Street one that I wrote up. DD, in effect, reminded me. And it's VERY "chuckable." | ||
| Gtmg |
Reg I think you make some great points. I am the buyer that HD is after with Buells. I bought a Buell Ulysses about 2 year ago. Before then I had no use for HD's...thought they were outdated with great marketing. Now I appreciate what they are and what they can do. I have just put my son on a Buell as well and he loves the blacked out Sportster. I personally think Buell has some of the not change issues as well. Can you honestly tell me that if challenged the Buell engineer could not have come up with a great design using the Vrod engine vs going out using someone else's??Yes you may have had to sacrifice some of the principle of the trilogy of tech but I think those guys and Eric are extremely creative.( I understand there may be some more to the story around the engine but so what. ) Use always see pleas on here for a sport-tourer...I think the Vrod engine would be great for that. If Triumph can make a 10k sport tourer that sells surely the Buell/HD combination can. Lastly I agree fully with Reg on price points. I continue to think the Buells are overpriced about $1000.00 considering their technology etc.. and I bet if you looked at final sales price at the dealer this would reflect a discount somewhere between the $500 and $1000 on many Buell sales. This is why dealers that don't see the big picture don't embrace Buells. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Reg, Nice to see you pop in once in a while. Although I'm no where near the wordsmith you are, I'll take a crack at your question. Slaughter pretty much nailed it with the "pouser image" and phony attitude post early on. HD has to dance a pretty file line with their "classic" line of bikes or risk totally alienating their core purchasing group. To a somewhat non-Harley guy like myself,for me it's like a visit to China, they all look the same! Usually a quick glance lets me tell if it's a new Sporty or "all the rest". If you lay the Big Twin parts books side by side, it's quite amayzing how many parts they have in common. Basically that boils down to smart manufacturing practices. Tool once, use many. For me the curiser style bikes don't hold my interest. I'd had a cruiser style for many years and almost completely lost interest in motorcycling. I went back to a standard style and the joy returned. The cruiser style is just not my cup of tea. My biggest problem comes with the whole "Lifestyle" marketing and P&A. The whole assless chap deal, fringed gloves and jackets and saddle bags? More shelf space for chrome polish, wax and special HD cleaning rags than Buell accessories? Then there's the chrome barge parades they call "rides". They spend more time stopping and revving their engines than riding. We have a number of charity runs here in the Minneapolis area every year. Last one I went on averaged about 30 MPH for over 150 miles! Mile after mile of folks on their polished barges nodding their heads and saying how much fun it was. It's always interesting to look at most of the odometers at these events. 3-5 year old bikes with less than 3000 miles on them! They aren't even broken in yet and have been in the shop many times to have new bling installed. I parted ways a hour or so in and found other backroads to the final destination to wait for the other folks in my inital group. We wound up riding about 300 miles on very interesting curvy farm roads. We still beat most of the main group by at least an hour! Since then, I send in my entry fee (it's a very good cause) then go ride elsewhere. But, this is America, the choice is yours to make as to what floats your boat. The "Lifestyle" just plain doesn't float mine. You also mentioned "bonehead" moves by Buell. Unfortunately I think a good number of them have been caused by the HD mothership and their myopic view of the motorcycle world. To them, everything looks like a cruiser bike and all riders are the same. Witness the P&A catalog for Buell a couple of years back. One of the first items for the XB series was chrome footgaurds? WTF??? Then they wondered why everyone whined and they didn't sell. Lots of examples of tunnel vision P&A thinking since then too. I suspect that Erik is at constant odds on many fronts with what the "Mothership" wants and what Buell needs.. If HD is to continue to succeed in the market place (especially after their latest acquisition) they need to let the Buells and MV's have a bit more free hand with their own destiny. If they think the Buell crowd marches to a different drummer, how are they going to react to the European MV crowd? Brad | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Brad touches on another of the keys to Harley's build/ROI philosophy: "If you lay the Big Twin parts books side by side, it's quite amayzing how many parts they have in common. Basically that boils down to smart manufacturing practices. Tool once, use many. " I'd further add that it's amazing how old many of the parts design are. To me this is nothing more than parts-bin engineering. Chrysler successfully did this for several years with their K-car platform. The upside is that the profits can be huge given that the development and tooling costs were paid off eons ago. This is also one of the reasons that the aftermarket thrives; they can tool-up their knock-offs confident that the part will fit far into the future. Creative mixing and matching can yield any number of model permutations, but it eventually bites you in the corporate butt. Discerning buyers quickly see through this and begin to wonder just how "new" the product really is. Buell, of course, follows this same strategy... which has been its curse. While the cruiser category reveres its heritage, the sportbike ethos sez you'd better be as new as the dawn. This might stop the 1125 from being a significant seller. I have to exclude the motors from this strategy. I like the big twins. They're sturdy work horses, reliable, gas-sippers, and beautiful to look at. I believe it to be the best Big Twin powerplant out there. Prior to the "96" I accorded that title to the Victory "106", but the "96" and its six-speed is smoother and more flexible. H-D is smart enough to know that the "lump" has to remain current. "One of the first items for the XB series was chrome footgaurds? WTF??? " The Buell P&A effort (actually, Harley drives it, not Buell) remains truly pathetic. I can recall two separate conversations with Harley executives re this (several years back.) Each assured me that things were gonna change. The irony... again, I'm repeating myself... is that no one is capable of coming anywhere near the abilities of H-D when it comes to P&A. Gtmg: You point re the engine is valid as far is the capability of the Buell engineers, but the V-Rod motor was not the answer. It's weight and mass would require too much of a redesign to accommodate it properly. There is a wealth of stories about the V-Rod development as far as where it was originally intended to rest. I'm not being coy when I say I can't tell them because the problem with these stories is they're contradictory... I really don't know what the truth is. Telling them would only add to the misinformation file. I'm waiting for Erik's book when he retires. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The Buell P&A effort (actually, Harley drives it, not Buell) remains truly pathetic. That's a tremendously accurate statement. The stuff the 22 year old marketing grads are currently churning out is absolutely terrible. Someone needs to break out the 1995v Buell P&A catalog and rethink the entire P&A strategy. It'll be good practice for what they need to do to the marketing effort. I've got a pretty good take on the VROD thing and cornered Erik in a car one day . . . started the H4 digital recording and captured the information. Some of it has been purged, by request, from the current book. Suffice to say that the "Making of the VROD documentary" is the last place I'd go to seek accurate information. The story will be a great one. That book is a ways out yet . . . but the outlines started. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Ya big tease! | ||
| Court |
>>>>Ya big tease! That's an accurate statement. There's a reason the contract was for TWO books. The next one will have no pictures. There was also TONS of stuff that tide, tide and temerity kept out of the last one so I can see another photo packed book as well with the omitted chapters on "Special Buells", "Buells Around the World" and 4 other chapters that, for now, live on the cutting room floor. Interestingly enough the entire, and it was one of my favorites, chapter on the Buell guitar got cut as well. Only after demanding something be included, was the photo of Mike Stone with the guitar added. There's a REAL story behind that. We now return you the the Harley-Davidson topic under discussion. . . . . Take it Reg! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Court. I have more than 2 thousand slides of Buell/Buell activites that I took in B2Win days. Most are useless, some are good; Like the S1 turbo being tried out at Daytona by various execs. Any and all are available to you. OK.. enough of this Lovefest: the burner is relit for further flaming. | ||
| Whatever |
Court!!! Please post link to order your book on Amazon!!! Now.... on topic... I have only found one dealership with a really bad Buell attitude... the same one that put my M2 rear tire on crooked... I could have hurt myself. Most Buell people I meet like Harleys ... me included, but NOT before I got the Buell. I think the biggest divide is between bikers and motorcyclists. Good Buell dealerships ... Hals and Docs in Wisconsin... Ray Price in NC. Bad ones.... are also S****y HD dealerships. My next bike either a Road King or BMW 1100 RR, though came very very close to buying an XBSCG in a moment of post anniversary passion (sorry Bud!) man... wish my credit was a little better... | ||
| Spatten1 |
One of the tough things for me is that Harley marketing has been successful in fooling some of the people into believing that other makes are not "real bikes". It has been the perfect marketing cache, but the effect is petering out among the next generation of buyers. I agree that fit and finish is superior on many Harleys. However, fit and finish does not a great machine make. I've been going through an old GSXR race bike for a number of months turning it back to a streetable machine. Man, you can't believe how well thought out this machine is. Everything that I disassemble is just smart, I can't think of a better word. Examples are the throttle body clamps that clamp two ports at once, and the perfectly placed hole in the frame for your long screwdriver to reach them. The perfect cable routing under the tank, as if the cables were not routed after finishing the rest of the machine, but as part of the design. The valve covers have the compression fit rubber gasket. The valve covers and cam journal caps are unbelievably light castings, perfectly formed for the job. Everything I'm taking apart is just a mechanical treat. However, it is not a "real bike" to many. This loyalty is great, but the people that believe it are getting older and older and fewer and fewer here in the US. At some point it may not work without appropriately priced product to back it up. I say appropriately priced because HD makes some great machines, but the price cannot be justified without the mistique. Back to the tooling issue, these bikes are damn expensive considering engines are revised every 15 years or so and there are 20 models with four or so frames, a bunch of wheels, handlebars, etc. The K-Car was an apt comparison from a manufacturing perspective, but I hate to go that low. | ||
| Spatten1 |
My other rant that this thread evokes is the following: After the Big War the vets bought Harleys because they were the strongest and fastest bikes out there. Then the chopped off extra parts to make them lighter to perform better. They went to Daytona to watch RACES, and were into the machines because they were badass at the time. I believe that a young man coming back from Iraq now, emulating the same pattern, would buy a GSXR, ZX, R, or CBR. I just wish that they had the same option in a US made bike. The 1125 is damn close, but seems to be fit for a more mature rider. Also, why can't Americans put out an engine like that? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
And now for something completely Dirty Go Fan boy go   | ||
| Ceejay |
things don't happen overnight, even in the not so big business of motorcycles. It wasn't as if Harley Davidson said "hey we got a bunch of money laying around let's buy someone tomorrow", nor did Buell come out with a new motor last year-built by Austrians because a certain American company doesn't have the time. If a company with a fair bit of engineering clout-remember EB was designing chassis for them a while back, doesn't have the time to engineer a new motor or produce it either, then what are they working on. Especially given that thier current line of bikes lack as much as they do in "new". Why did they kill the dirt bike program anyway? I think there's a bunch of peices there but I don't know what the picture will look like. I like most Harley's but similar to most bikes there's a lot I would like to change to make it "mine". Which therein lies the problem, 90% of what you see today looks and sounds exactly the same-how often do you hear a stock one? I don't even know what a stock harley sounds like, and I'm often tired of seeing a person's personality change becuase of a recent acquisition, but in the end can you blame them? I'd be happyier than a pig in shit if I could drop 20 large on something that just sat in the garage... | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Scott... H-D's recent engine progression has been a bit quicker than you indicate (but your point is valid). To wit: Knucklehead 36-47 (11 yrs.) Pan 48-65 (17 yrs) Flathead "K Model" 52-56 (4 yrs.) Iron XL 57-85 (18 yrs.) Shovel 66 - 85 (18 yrs.) Evolution 84-99 (15 yrs.) Evo XL 86-current (22 and counting) Twin Cam 88 99-06 (7 yrs.) Revolution 01-current (7 yrs. and counting) Twin Cam 96 07-current ( 1 yr. and counting) In fairness to that 22 year-old Evo XL, it has been extensively advanced. And I'm sure you haven't forgotten that the Buell motors, the 1125 notwithstanding, are also ready to collect social security checks. Ceejay... I haven't modified the exhaust on my Harleys since my FLHS back in the mid-90's. No need to, they run fine, and I like the quiet. There is a trend, heavily pushed by responsible dealers to not modify exhaust. | ||
| Crusty |
Whatever; You car order the book direct from the publisher: http://www.whitehorsepress.com/product_info.php?products_id=5822 (Message edited by crusty on July 13, 2008) | ||
| Doerman |
I just don’t understand that one has to like/dislike somebody else and their choice in motorcycle. Why come to an auto-conclusion about a person based on what he rides/does not ride wears/does not wear? Everybody has their reasons for buying what they do and presumably enjoys it after plunking down cash to realize the dream. I have found myself make a mistake so many times when judging people based on my preconceived notion. After meeting them and striking up a conversation about what makes them tick I find people in general to be very interesting and very much worth my time be they of the cruiser/sportbike democrat/republican ilk. My wife owns a Dyna, a fine machine. It just does not stir my adrenaline as my Buells do. It stirs hers. That’s what counts. I’ve never felt like a stranger when showing up at HD dealership wearing leathers, boots and a full face and striking up a conversation with the fringe and tassel crowd. It has never been a barrier for me. | ||
| Bill0351 |
"I believe that a young man coming back from Iraq now, emulating the same pattern, would buy a GSXR, ZX, R, or CBR. I just wish that they had the same option in a US made bike." That's exactly what most of the guys from my unit did when they returned. There was a group of them who were close to buying Vrods, but the price put them off. Most of them ended up on used Japanese sportbikes. Every single one of them bought more bike than they could handle. A Blast is a great bike, but for a lot of young riders, buying a "starter bike" is like admitting you were born without a set of balls. By the time they got home, they either had bikes waiting in their garages at home, or deposits on bikes. Along with the bikes, they all had jackets and helmets. When I think of it, almost every piece of gear they bought was from Icon. That's the market that HD needs to tap into. The half-hearted attempt they are making with Buell isn't going to do it. Besides, if the bikes can't hang with a GSXR750 in a straight line, kids won't want one anyway. Pushing expensive Italian machinery isn't going to do it. Most new riders want the most intimidating bike they can afford and with a used 'Busa going for 8K, MV won't get a sniff from anyone making anything resembling average wages. Harley Davidson hasn't made their money manufacturing motorcycles. They have made their money cultivating an image. From a purely objective standpoint, I don't see a bike in the lineup that isn't beaten by another brand. Even if the actual machine measures up, the price doesn't. What HD does better than anyone else is make and sell Harleys. The "big four" can make the best cruiser in the world, and it is measured by what is isn't rather than what it is. It isn't a HD, so it fails the last and definitive test. There isn't anything wrong with that at all. It's brilliant marketing on the part of HD. No other manufacturer has managed to do that in the US. Now all HD has to do is find the key to start that process all over with a new generation. I read somewhere that HD has seen the average age of its buyer go up nearly a year for every year that passes. I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is, it's a pretty scarey statistic. At some point HD is going to have to quit worrying about offending that aging group of cyclists, and get the attention of a new group. I wonder why HD is so worried about offending them anyway. What are they going to do, get offended enough to drop all the HOG rides and rallies to go buy a Goldwing? I am willing to bet that if HD can make a line of sportbikes that is as good as the "big four" then younger guys will jump onboard with all the lifestyle stuff too. Instead of Icon making it, HD can. Both the Big Twin and the new Harley sportbike riders can argue over who the real "bikers" are and whether they should or should't wave to one another, and the MoCo can just cash the checks and keep the factories rolling. I know it's just Internet chatter, but it's a lot of fun to talk about. Besides, no matter how much you hate HD, or HD riders, most of us understand that a successful MoCo is good for people who work there, and good the United States in general. A guy coming home from Iraq should want an American bike. In fact I bet he would rather have an American bike than one from any other country in the world. Someone her just needs to step up and make one the average 22 year-old squid/veteran wants. Bill | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
When I think of it, almost every piece of gear they bought was from Icon. I love my Icon jacket. Btw, Frederick HD/Buell sells Icon merchandise. I don't recall ever seeing non-HD brand stuff in a HD store. I am willing to bet that if HD can make a line of sportbikes that is as good as the "big four" then younger guys will jump onboard with all the lifestyle stuff too. I dont believe Buell is that far off the mark with the 1125. Getting some solid racing wins under their belt would help. There is a herd mentality amongst Jap sportbike riders. People are basically followers. The trick is to get them to follow you. Erik Buell has some great ideas - he sold me but many are still non-believers. We need to change that. | ||
| Spatten1 |
If a company with a fair bit of engineering clout-remember EB was designing chassis for them a while back, doesn't have the time to engineer a new motor or produce it either Making a competitive engine is much tougher than a chassis. There are probably 100 parts in an engine that need just as much design and testing as a frame or swingarm, not to mention that they have to work together at insane speeds. You just can't say you "don't have time" to design an engine, especially one on the edge of the current technological envelope. I believe it is much more complicated, and takes much more institutional knowledge than you are crediting Honda, Ducati, KTM, Suzuki, etc. with. I'll believe HD is capable when they do it. The superbike abortion makes me very skeptical. I'm sure there are people with the brains, but it takes many years of trial and error making performance engines to make solid ones that actually work well and are reliable. | ||
| Hoser |
How I really feel ........... Do Harleys suck ? well , sort of , there's a whole lot to consider when thinking about it. I happen to own an 08 , for now it doesn't suck. What is lame about Harley ,is some thing that could be discussed for hours . Unproven / untested new designs being released and sold , cheesy technology being rammed down our throats whether we like or not are but a few of the features that are a turn off . Todays Harley customers are for the most part a bunch of whining pansies , throwing a hissy fit over issues that in my opinion are of little significance. Few of them are capable of simple adjustments such as tightening a mirror .Others ,who fancy themselves as being handy can do serious harm in an attempt to bolt on the latest crap they "won" on ebay. In general , an anoying lot , the way they dress , how some of them ride is frightening. | ||
| Skinstains |
FTF | ||
| Ceejay |
You just can't say you "don't have time" to design an engine but that was the way it was put, whether true or not few of us will ever know. I agree that time is necessary, which makes it even more astounding in consideration of how well the project was kept secret, but I don't believe that it is something that Harley couldn't have produced-maybe the time frame was the biggest issue-as in they didn't have the manpower available to do it in that time frame. I don't think it was that they don't have that type of manpower though. | ||
| Tom_b |
check this and see what i mean.http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/D ark_Custom/Dark_Custom.jsp?locale=en_US | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"You just can't say you "don't have time" to design an engine" Aw crap.......home hobbyist can single handed, design and build from scratch.......a mini, blown, running, V-8 engine in their garage........in spare time after work................WTF Harley? | ||
| Blake |
I like Harleys. I think bike biggots suck. | ||
| Igneroid |
I think bike biggots suck.  | ||
| Court |
>>>>That's the market that HD needs to tap into. I've pushed and pushed for the Buell demo truck (along with a sales function) to be present during FLEET DAYS here in New York City. In the next 18 months we are going to be returning hundreds of thousands of young folks to America. . . many of whom will be aching for a motorbike. I even tried to park a Buell down in the midst of it all last year and found out that the closest "media bikes" Buell has are in CA. Blew the chance, the day Meredith Vieira and I danced to Chicago playing "Saturday in the Park" to have the Buell sitting there as well. The HD marketing folks are GREAT at marketing HD but are light years away from being connected with the Buell market. I'm with you guys on biggots sucking . . . I've owned a number of HD's including XR-1000, XLCR and a host of others and have yet to find one I don't like. Between Reg and Jerry Haughton . . . I confess to having a tinge of the bug. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Reg, For the most I agree with you. Although I have never owned a Harley I have three brothers who have owned many of them. My youngest brother (that would be 16 years younger) rode from Anchorage to Sturgis to Milwaukee to Arizona in 2003. He has ridden the same '92 Dyna Wide-Glide from Anchorage to Sturgis at least three times. All of us could tell some cross country stories. One thing I have noticed lately is that the XR1200 is getting some good press. On the other hand the new VMax is getting kudos from Cycle World for having an "innovative" single chain cam drive that uses gear drive to spin the exhaust cams. Seems they don't know the 1125R has been running that design for over a year now. I could go on to compare the XL/Buell V-Twin to the small block Chevy but would take a whole other post. Enough for now. Greg |
