| Author | Message | ||
     Cowboy |
RT Dont mis understand me I have put more than 40 yrs in the oil field I do not find any fault with oil co. I beleve we need to dril dril dril. As a 40 yr employe with H'burton--Otis engineering Corp. I have a lot of experence with both Driling and production. I am not sure if production is at max. I do know that the Rail Road mommison in Tex. would not allow cormingle flow if we produce all zones at once we could up production conciderable,as there would be no need for new pipe lines ect. As most of my family members are employed refineing, drilling and production this is afamily discusion very often. This problem could have been lessened had this had been adressed during the Clinton yrs. Until other sorcess are found the only ans. to drill and damn fast.I hope this clears up my stand on this subject. This congress needs to get the hell out of the way. | ||
| Court |
Interesting how those of us in the energy business see things differently. The electric cars thing is a fun joke that the same folks who subscribe to global warming and green roofs have played on their friends. I'm thrilled to see the 63 new Nuclear plants get the green light. Real answers will never be found by running about chanting some silly "Change we must" mantra. If you've no plan, speeding up is of no value. | ||
| Court |
Somewhere . . . and mayhaps one of you have it . . . I read a great article on the life (as in what goes it to and is produced by the manufacturing of and what happens at the end of the useful life) of a hybrid car battery. The same folks who rant about EMF from living under powerlines (never been substantiated but always a fun argument) like to talk to you about the short portion of the life cycle while they are in the car "saving fuel". But I confess. . . . my opinion. . . after a career as an electric lineman and now as an exec with a utility company is tainted. . . . I urge you all to sleep with your lights and televisions on and leave your computer, cell phone and PDA chargers plugged in long after the device is charged.  | ||
| Road_thing |
Cowboy--only the first sentence of that post was aimed at you--I know you're ex-Big Red. rt ps-I like Court's advice. Leave your motors running, too! | ||
| Ceejay |
I could only find 27, that's approvals. Regardless I may have to rethink my current career track. It always amazes me when I sit on my back patio at night it can be a nice 70 degrees out and I can't hear the freeway which is less than a mile away as the crow flies due to all the AC's a buzzing. Our operating range is getting very narrow... | ||
| Court |
>>>Leave your motors running, too! irreverent At least until the new "Case de Thing" Hacienda is completed . . . then we'll conserve. By the way . . . lest I be perceived as being flippant about conservation I want to assure you that I AM doing my part. Just yesterday, after Ford announced the delay of the 2009 F-150 (how can you not love something that's 6" longer) I cancelled my order for the irreverent, irresponsible, gas guzzling hog and order a much more ecologically friendly vehicle that will be delivered in 10 months. I'm getting on board by nearly doubling my mileage. | ||
| Darthane |
C'mon, Court, spill - what'd'ja get? | ||
| Road_thing |
Whatever it is, you can bet it'll hop curbs and have a push bar for those pesky parked patrol units... rt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hmm... that would be about 30 mpg, can't be a smart car. Is it horizontally opposed, and red? (But I bet you keep the F150 also ). You still have those KLR-650's in buckets? Those get pretty good MPG. Bring on the nuke plants! At this point, I don't see much other hope. | ||
| Court |
>>>Is it horizontally opposed, and red? Half-right. The F-150 stays as part of the continuing Joey Chitowood parallel parking extravaganza. And although it was RT and Henrik who endured the blast down the sidewalk, parallel park from the sidewalk into the space exhibition it was poor Sara who had to endure the "what is the maximum speed you can achieve in reverse to get to a parking spot" ordeal. I feel bad that it was the wrong way (technically I was POINTED in the proper direction) down a one way street. He was doing fine until I did the "if it don't fit you can easily move it with an F-150 demo". It got testy when he saw the fear on my face when I realized I had just moved an undercover unmarked NYPD car. I suppose, looking back, that was the fastest I have ever left an area. There are TWO KLR's in buckets awaiting nothing more that for the right people to go on vacation at the new secret Buell paint facility. <g> The scramble for Nuke plants is on. Several years ago a nuke permit was like an Albatross. Now the scramble is on. I may not live long enough to do any more nukes, but I am privy to ongoing discussions for 4-500MW and 750MW combined cycle plants in the NYC city limits. Even with recent construction, just in our market area, we are loosing ground. These are very interesting times. There has never been a more amazing time I can imagine to have been alive, nor a more amazing place to be. It intriuges me that in so many ways we are afloat in wonderment and fascinating things yet something like the price of a gallon of gas or an election can blur our entire field of vision. Be amazed.  | ||
| Benm2 |
So let me get this straight: as battery technology & electronics technology converge on a vehicle that only consumes the power it needs rather than pissing 50% away, that's a joke? For all the free-market talk that gets tossed about here, the switch to electric cars will be driven BY the same free market. Gas will not get cheaper, and electric cars are more efficient. Economies of scale will reduce the costs for the batteries, and power plants will be built. Laugh all the way to the bank, I guess. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You have a line on 100% efficient coal plants? Sweet! I thought 48% efficiency was about the best they could achieve, and that was assuming the coal magically appeared in the boiler, and the electricity magically moved from the plant to my door. And my battery was perfect, and my electric motor as well. Coal plants can afford heavier systems, so they can be marginally more efficient and marginally cleaner, and better suited to coal rather then liquids. But better enough to ultimately overcome limitations in the capabilities and lifecycles of batteries? The dirty little secret is that *all* our non nuclear power sources are solar. Not just biofuels... coal and oil are just long dead rain forests. They work so well because they stored millions of years worth of solar power, but can liberate that power in seconds by combustion. And we can't get enough "real time" solar power until we move substantially closer to the sun... Nuclear is really the only "other" source of power besides solar. And solar power is nuclear power when you get right down to it. And where does Nuclear power come from? Me? I'm God powered  | ||
| Benm2 |
Then compare the entire food chain, please. Include the efficiency of the refineries, the trucks that transport to the gas stations, and the hours that idling cars spend burning gasoline at 0.5mph in the Holland tunnel. I've never seen a complete door-to-door analysis of coal fired electric (from mine to plug) versus gasoline driven IC engine (from well to gas tank). If you have, please share it. An electric motor uses no power when its not moving. An IC engine idling in a car doesn't have that luxury. An electric motor at partial load draws the current it needs to keep moving that load and still maintains high efficiency. Gasoline IC engines at part load have pumping losses. Batteries can be recycled. A "shot" lithium polymer battery is still made of the same raw materials it started as. | ||
| Brumbear |
Electric forklifts run 13 hrs on 1 batt and if you can run a forklift for that long with the current use that consumes then any car will last 3to400 miles in 1 charge they do work it is feesable WE WILL NEVER SEE IT. PERIOD check out any major forklift website IE Crown, Raymond, Komatsu then check for shits and giggles Miles car and then zero motorcycles I am not making this up its real the cost is effective and the savings are real I assure you | ||
| Gschuette |
Proponents of increased government in nearly any area scare the crap out of me. I can't think of anything government can do that private enterprise couldn't do cheaper, faster, and better. Vote Libertarian! | ||
| Benm2 |
Did a brief search, found this at Wikipedia under "heat engine":
link to above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine Taking Wikipedia info with a grain of salt, it looks like my estimate for an Otto engine was overrated. In any case, it still appears that large scale electricity generation can be done better & more efficiently with Coal or Gas using steam cycles rather than IC engines. Using Occam's Razor and nothing else, that is borne out by the utility companies NOT building IC engine powerplants. I would have expected you to be a fan of electric cars, Reep! | ||
| Brumbear |
If we spent near in electric research batt tech motors and alloys solor technology what we spend in oil reseach we would have cars lasting 1 million miles and throw em out oh yeah no tune up parts no air filters a control voltage can be applied or taken to run extra systems such as heat a/c and anything else your car has p/s p/b flyback cirdutry is applied to kick back waste to be reused it is actually really amazing what can be done and how efficient it can be done | ||
| Aesquire |
My statement/guess ( bet ya! ) that changing from IC engines in the cars to electric from the grid, would require more power for the grid, seems obvious. If it takes x ergs to drive to work, y ergs from the grid to run civilization, then total energy use is x+y ergs. A much bigger value than just y. Convert to electric cars, and x with it's value slightly changed due to efficiencies of scale still adds to y to get the total ergs needed. It's still much bigger than y alone. Way more than the slack in the system, I believe. So, we simply need more power to run electric cars. That's cool, I like more power. It's apples and oranges comparing efficiency of IC vs. steam turbines, since Dodge doesn't make a coal fired pickup truck. ( yet ) Range is the big issue with electric cars, the late Chevy Volt was good for less than 20 miles with the heater, defrosters, wipers & lights going in cold weather. I saw a cute solution where an Aussie had a mini trailer with a Honda generator in an aero shell, the rig recharging him on the go so he could slip away from civilization & drive cross the continent. Slick. | ||
| Court |
I'm a huge fan of alternatives, and perhaps electric . . . . just note the "Campaign Fodder" placebos currently being offered up. There is an element of "if you can't see it, it doesn't exist" in the current crop of electrics and hybrids. Look . . . why would a 3rd generation electrician not be in support electric cars? I'm also a huge advocate of education and rapidly advancing technology. Remember the story about my Grandmother first hearing of an airplane in the early 1900's sitting there talking with my uncle the Astronaut? Technology is moving fast and accelerating. I am convinced we will, 15 years hence, be using an amazing source of energy that we know little about at present. I get to see, daily, some of this research taking place at Columbia, (in the same room the atomic bomb was invented in) and I assure you there are amazing people doing amazing things just at Columbia. It's a fun time to be alive. I'm God powered too . . . . but my car isn't. | ||
| Gtmg |
Just so you know the forklift battery technology is ancient. Forklift use the same batteries they were using 30 years ago in electric lifts. They are not comparable to the batteries that GM, Honda and Toyota are working on. You guys can poo poo electric cars. I would love to come back here somewhere between 2010 and 2012 and review this discussion. Like I said before car companies make their money on big cars. Yes this includes Honda. Big cars that eat gas are going away except for people who need them for work. Car companies need to get a drive mechanism so big cars can be sold again. With GM coming out with their car in 2010 and Honda right on their heals, I just don't see this as some campaign jargon. What the car companies have not embraced is alternate fuel ie ethanol. At least ADM doesn't win this one. By the way with two kids in college and running about 500 miles one week for work 1 600 mile trip to the beach my gas bill approached $1000 this month. I have some big cars in my house. In the previous oil busts there was dramatically more competition refining gas in the US. During one bust we were allowing the Middle East to control our oil supply. We have three companies that refine gas in the US essentially. IMHO there is no competition. I can see the same thing in my industry because of consolidation. Much easier to get price increases now. Everybody just goes along all 5 major companies where there used to be 20. | ||
| Blake |
How many oil companies does Russia have? Mexico? China? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Venezuela? Who needs more oil companies? America you say?  | ||
| Benm2 |
Tru nuff. Campiagn fodder, empty promises, and bs are the stock & trade of mainstream america. The placement of the National Enquirer at the checkout stand of every grocery store is not merely coincedence. Regardless, I like the Prius. Rumors that the 09 model might approach 80-100 mpg are floating about. I don't think Toyota will have any trouble selling them, but I'll NOT be buying one: there will be no negotiating on price with the smug Toyota salesman. Forklift battery ancient? Yep, same as the batteries offered up in GM's last electric car. None of the current crop of hybrids use them. There is some neatness in lead acid still kicking around: http://www.fireflyenergy.com | ||
| Court |
>>>Regardless, I like the Prius. I could not agree more. Chauly (I call him Chuck) is a "Blake-Level" Techie Engineer and has had one for a couple years. I think he has about 140,000 and the maintenance has been less than the cost of lunch. All it has been if fun, dead reliable and super cheap to operate. How cool would the Prius be if they could evolve the battery technology? | ||
| Brumbear |
Ok I am gonna try to build one I have the stuff all I need is the time to do it I have pallet jack control system and battery I have an old car just some tinkering with the drive sysytem to get speed and we will see. hopefully I can actually get it done | ||
| Rich |
If we nationalise, will we be nationalising the profit AND loss, or just the loss, as in the banking industry? | ||
| Kuuud |
Yes, but why did they have to make the Prius so butt ugly? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sorry Ben, I didn't mean to come off as arguing. I think electric cars will be great when the math works. A 1991 CRX HF could get 40 MPG easy, would run for 160k miles, and sold for what, $10k? It was a two seater, but it was a great car. The early Honda hybrid was lucky to get 45 MPG real world, and cost $25k. The math sucked. I currently drive (when I am not riding) a 2001 Saab 9-3 2.0 turbo. 33 MPG highway easy, and 210 HP when I want it, carries 4 comfortably (5 in a pinch), is super safe in an accident, has tons of cargo space, and can comfortably pull a trailer with two motorcycles through the mountians at 70 MPH. I bought it for $7100, and it will probably last 70k miles. The Prius looks like the first reasonable hybrid... but its still an awfully expensive economy car, particularly in light of the fact that a new Civic is pulling something like 35 MPG consistently with pure internal combustion. For battery technology, I can't help but think of every laptop I have ever owned (a LOT), and it's useless 4 year old battery, and calculate that out to $10k in maintenance every 5 years. The Chevy Volt (at least on paper) looks really cool. Charge it from the wall (where you are looking at 40% efficiency in generation, and just battery and transmission losses, which are probably less then 10%). Plus, that wall current came from coal, not oil, which I have to think is cleaner and cheaper in the long run (sorry Road Thing). Then, when you original 100 mile charge has drained out, a *little* internal combustion engine that is tuned to run *really* well at one RPM and one RPM only kicks in and does nothing but charge the battery. The car is still all electric. Maintaining 70 MPH takes what... maybe 20 HP? So the motor is only a 25 HP motor. The "acceleration" comes from extra energy stored up in the battery, and you have a regenerative braking system so that when you hit the brakes you are re-gathering the energy you already put into inertia. Thats the electric that excites me. The fact that motor is a "little one trick pony" could open up all sorts of cool possibilities... direct injection diesel? Direct injection two stroke? Thats why Hydrogen was interesting to me as well... if you think about it, hydrogen can be used as simply a really nice and really efficient battery. Add electricity to water and you get hydrogen and oxygen. Mix hydrogen and oxygen and you get lots of energy, and water. Hydrogen is just a battery... albeit one that is really hard to handle, store, and transport. Brumbear, keep us up to date... It sounds like a really neat project. Cool stuff! Neat to think about. | ||
| Darthane |
Reep, I recall reading a while ago that to keep a family sedan (think Taurus) moving at freeway speeds required only 8HP. ...I'd assume that's on level ground and with no headwind, but still, your point is valid. All that HP/TQ is for GETTING to speed, not maintaining it. That's one of the reasons all those old commercials showing trucks pulling huge airplanes and railway cars never impressed me. Sure, they can KEEP them moving - let's see them pull it from a dead stop to 60...and then stop again. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Zactly. A 20 HP engine with a *big* honking battery and big electric motor could give outstanding performance and economy. I never understood why the current generation of hybrids still have the motor connected to the drive train at all... though I am sure there are good practical reasons. And a retrofit does seem practical... I even did a little pricing research. The batteries are your first obstacle, but the electric motors are your second, and you still need an efficient and well managed little gas motor and generator. At this point, you might be better off with compressed air and a two stage compressor. Less efficient, but more off the shelf parts available. Just put a good gas powered air compressor under your hood, and a good air powered motor. You don't easily get regenerative breaking though. Another thing i wondered about (while I am doing public wondering) was why electric motors don't need transmissions. Or if they really *don't* need transmissions. Thats another big source of savings, and another reason to keep your little gas motor connected only to a generator / compressor. | ||
| Ceejay |
reep-I'm pretty certain that's why the saabs get such good gas mileage. The turbos get them out of the hole-as those little fours don't really have much power otherwise and then once they are up to speed they don't need much(nor the turbo). They really are little tanks too, thus making the first long trip I took somewhat astounding when I saw the comp. calculation and checked. It is really odd that the HP wars continue in cars when people don't really need it unless they are pulling out in front of you. I've got 70 on mine and it started at 40, so I would say you'll get more than that. |
