| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
Mal-Wart it isn't just for white trash anymore.... | ||
| Miamiuly |
So it is decided. Buells do not suck. But our Wal-Mart dominated world is in scary trouble. | ||
| Jayvee |
Hey remember the cost/benefit analysis Ford did on how much they would have to pay out in wrongful death suits vs. how much they could save by not modifying the Pinto gas tank to make it less explosive? They did the math, and did not modify. Now THAT'S Capitalism (with a capital C.) Buell is nothing like that. I agree the S1 is the real deal, but the M2 is an acceptable compromise for real life. | ||
| Djkaplan |
My M2 is the best bike Buell has ever made. Not your M2 or your buddies M2 and certainly not Jaimec's M2... ...just MY M2. | ||
| Blake |
"Which brings me back to Blake’s “trusted source.” T’ain’t no such thing, folks." I'm sorry you don't know any honest trustworthy people Reg. I do. In fact I'm blessed to know a number of them. "Foremost, if indeed this is a fact, then why isn't it publicized?" Because of a legally binding contract that prohibits just that. "you can make numbers support just about any position you want to take." I'd clarify that as follows: "When addressing an uncritical audience you can make numbers appear to support just about any position you want to take." But that is what I would call fraud or a con-job, certainly not the product of anyone of integrity. "In the wheeled world J.D. Powers ranks as an authority on vehicle reliability. You can argue with their methodology (customer satisfaction, mainly) but their pronouncements do carry weight. Correct me if I’m wrong, but, I can’t recall seeing Buell mentioned in (J. D. Powers top rankings." Through 2006, I don't believe they reported their motorcycle findings other than to the manufacturers themselves. There may be a hint there. Moreover, my information comes from multiple trusted sources. In my experience, the last people to delude themselves about the quality or dependability/reliability of a product are the folks who design and manufacture said product. In my experience, they are by far the most critical when it comes to issues of quality and reliability. (Message edited by Blake on May 30, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
Interesting discussion for sure. "Cost of quality" versus "cost of non-conformance"... those terms mean anything to you? | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Blake.. I don't believe that Buell would lie to you, nor you to them. However,they will only tell you enough to suit their needs. This is standard biz practice; it has nothing to do with being honest and trustworthy, which I believe both you and they are. "legally binding contract?" Not relevant; I wasn't, obviously, asking you to publicize the issue. I've always assumed that you a CA in place with them. The question remains begged: Why doesn't Buell shout this good news from the roof tops? You're dancing around the issue, Blake. Let me put it this way: Were I to write, "The Buell XBikes are among the most unreliable on the planet, and I have this from a trusted source." How would you respond? Oh, now it's "multiple sources." Hey, that's got me convinced! | ||
| Koz5150 |
Sources, JD Powers, site whoever you like. The facts remain that 1125's are going to magazines for test rides and they are getting less then rave reviews. This is not even really a quality issue now that I think about it. I mean if Buell tried they could send a bike that works the way it is supposed to, right? Maybe they can't so they just send whatever they got out the door and pray for magic voodoo to fix the bugs on the way... Either way, when it is all said and done, there isn't a new buell on the market today that I would spend money on, and that makes me kinda sad. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
By the time Buells are readied for the press there is only a limited amount that can be done in preparation. Buell techs are knowledgeable, competent and passionate about what they do. Anyone who has spent any time around them can attest to this. However, they can only work with what they are given. If, for example, the problems result from engineering (design, component selection, etc.)or vendor defects, there is little they can do. And yes, I do believe that prayer has often been part of the prep with new models. I have little first-hand knowledge of the 1125, but it appears to be a sound design that is being hampered by f.i. issues, primarily. Unfortunately, this is a somewhat common thread with Buells. This is doubly interesting to me given that the f.i. on the Harleys works flawlessly. And yes, I do understand the systems are different, etc. | ||
| Blake |
Reg, I'm no party to the contract and it doesn't prevent me from publishing the data. Were you to write, "The Buell XBikes are among the most unreliable on the planet, and I have this from a trusted source." I'd take you at your word Reg, as I know you to be an honest and trustworthy man as well. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Pure unadulterated, high-grade bullshite, Blake. Pure and simple. | ||
| Blake |
No sir, it is my honest answer to your question. | ||
| Lootenantdan1203 |
What I do question is the idea that Buell has consciously decided to offer flawed product because its customers will accept it. I have never questioned Buell's intent to produce a quality motorcycle. However, intent and execution have often ended up at odds with each other. Intent means nothing. Nothing. I, too, doubt that Buell has consciously decided to accept flawed product, but I believe they haven't decided that they won't accept flawed product. Either decision (or lack thereof) produces the same results. Intent? Who cares? To use Blake's terminology, Buell has absorbed the cost of non-conformance because they couldn't quite get around to deciding that they might possibly someday need to start considering whether or not they might need to absorb the cost of quality. | ||
| Lootenantdan1203 |
And, by the way, Penelope Cruz has ALL over Salma Hayek. The Salma/Penelope conundrum is one of my all time favorite mid-watch conversations. It's like trying to decide whether the S1 is better or worse than the S3. | ||
| Ceejay |
not much to add other than Ms. Cruz doesn't hold a candle(despite being shaped like one) to Ms. Hayek... I do believe all the problems Buell may be having are bit hard to understand. The two 1125 that I have ridden didn't have any issues, and I don't think it's becuase I'm accepting of them. Could it just be that they are like a new pr. of hockey skates and take quite a bit of time and pain to break in? I've got about 11,000 on my XB and the thing seems to have more power, better throttle response, and is more fun than when I bought it with 4000 on the clock. I thought that was more of an air-cooled trait but it also brings up the question as to why Buell doesn't just send one of their test mules out to the mags-which I'm sure would raise a lot of q's as in, "you don't want that one off the showroom floor we have a nice one just for you over here." | ||
| Davegess |
Buell has demonstrated over the long term a rather steady climb on several important curves. The climbs have not been without some setbacks but the progress over any 5 year period has been pronounced. Build quality, the overall fit and finish has gotten pretty consistently better from model to model. I don't mean that an S1 is not spectacular nor that an RS is not a work of art but overall the 1125 is simply a more complete finished package. The rough edges have gone away and the bike can be sat next to a Honda and it will compare well to it. A RS will look like a hand built machine, almost like a kit bike with very many components borrowed from other machines. The refinement is much better. Performance of the bikes has improved. The price has improved. Dealers have improved - still the biggest area of concern really. Pretty much everything including the profit and loss statement has gotten better over 25 years. They will get better yet. Erik has a simple goal- build the neatest bikes in the world and sell them to a lot of people; he gets closer every year. When Erik says publicly, like he did last year at Homecoming that quality of the XB as measured by J.D. Powers numbers and internal warranty tracking are right up with the best I have no reason to doubt him. The bikes simply have not had a lot of issues. Hell if they had a lot of issues the non issue about the handful of bikes with headlight reflectors that wear out over time would not be brought up folks would be complaining about lots of serious stuff. I do think the two year warranty is a powerful statement of how good the bikes are. They are not perfect. I do think the first XB's are better than the latter ones; I suspect that reliability and eliminating any area of concern were really stressed on the first two models. Probably more than was practical. I know from vast experience that it is almost impossible to make cutting edge technology perfectly reliable. That is why astronauts have died. NASA expends vast resources, time and money and has some very smart, dedicated hard working folks and the stuff is not perfect. One can make a perfect windup clock. I suspect that the failure rate on nice wind up clocks is darn close to zero. Of course yo have to wind them every week or they don't work but... They are old technology, cutting edge techno gadgets alwasy have issues. As far as Blake's trusted source goes, there is an old rule of journalism - widely violated by the new internet and cable news journalists that says you can't run something form one trust source. You have to be able to confirm the info from a second, unrelated, reliable source. One of the fascinating things about the whole Watergate story was how they managed to do that. That said, most people at the factory will not tell half truths, will not manipulate statistics and will not BS. If you ask them a question you will get an answer. It will one of three things, first will simply be the truth as they see it (and we all see things differently), Second will be a honest “I can’t answer that” and third will be some variation on, “what I can say about that is”. This third one indicates that what you are about to hear is the official company line and the teller may not think it is 100% correct. Often what they say can be very instructive. This only applies to the factory folks, I don’t’ know any of the PR and marketing types so I can’t speak for them. Now I get to say something a shouldn’t. I think the problems with press fleet reflect who runs these things. Buell marketing is separate from the factory and sometimes don’t hear what the factory has to say and sometimes are too wedded to the H-D way. I do not understand why Cycle World would ever get a bike that did not work as well as an 1125 could work is beyond me. I would think that you would ride one, make it sure it was fully broken in and working great before you delivered it to them. To give them what 3? bad bikes is simply inexcusable. I can see Rider perhaps (and that should not happen) getting a bike no one has checked out but the largest magazine on the planet? I think the factory folks need to accomplish two things to move to the next level, they already have the engine they need; they need to control marketing, Buell folks need to hire the marketing team and direct them. They need to report to the CEO of Buell Motorcycles. Second they need to figure out how to fix the dealers (actually I think BMC knows how to do it and have begun the process but it is an ongoing battle) and my bonus point they need to kick the UK folks in the butt. Now I have to add my disclaimer so no one thinks I am passing on inside info etc, I can’t remember that last time I talked with Erik or anyone else at Buell about the MC business. I try to avoid the topic they don’t want to talk shop when not at work and we have a ton of other stuff to talk about, kids, cars, racing, wife’s, etc. So this whole rambling discourse is based on experienced speculation and should in no way be construed as inside info. | ||
| Lootenantdan1203 |
I think the problems with press fleet reflect who runs these things. Buell marketing is separate from the factory and sometimes don’t hear what the factory has to say and sometimes are too wedded to the H-D way. If CW had had a problem with the 1125R's suspension setup, I would be perfectly willing to believe that a H-D marketing weasel was responsible. Maybe the weasel is a Road King person and didn't have any experience with sportbikes. But CW had problems with dead batteries, hard starting, cutting out... Even a Road King Marketing Weasel would recognize those problems. If they bothered ( - cost of quality - ) to look. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Dave, I am, in varying degrees, in agreement with most of which you write. My issue with the XB’s reliability status has nothing to do with the motorcycles themselves. What irks me is Blake’s blanket statement without corroboration; something that he would not allow (and rightfully so). The use of a “trusted source” is always tricky. In this case I believe he is hiding behind it. However, that BIG Question hangs heavy: If the JD powers numbers are all that good, why aren’t they being publicized? The vehicle and watercraft industry falls all over their respective selves in their ads when their numbers peak. I believe I made it clear, but if not… I’m not questioning the integrity or trustworthiness of Buell employees. In my past relationship with same I have always found them truthful, very helpful and forthright. Even when I didn’t like what I heard (it got personal at times) I could still respect and understand their position. I’ve heard nothing recently to change that opinion. I’ll not go too deep into the “cutting edge” issue, but it suffices to say that manufacturers continually release cutting edge products without significant fault. That, in itself, is not an excuse. Comparison with NASA is a far stretch and a very specious argument, at best. The press introduction of the 1125 at Laguna, while orchestrated by “marketing,” was under the control (machinery-wise) of Buell engineers and technicians. In fact, I recall thinking that the lights must be out in East Troy as it seemed EVERYONE was in the paddock at Laguna. The germane question is why does Buell too often release motorcycles to the press that are not ready for prime time? Let me give you my answer: Simply, time and money. Ostensibly, Buell is a part of Mother Harley. Yet, still after all these years it must fight for resources and recognition… less so than in the past, but it’s still a fight. Because they are part of mighty Harley we expect them to have the same resources. The reality is it’s still a small company, just with more memos to answer and meetings to attend. The motorcycles released to the press subsequent to Laguna were/are indeed completely under the control of “marketing.” As with all MC companies these units come from a fleet center that doles them out on request. Press bikes live a hard life. Over the years I’ve dealt with most of the manufacturer’s fleet centers, and have seen trashed motorcycles that have been returned from the various pubs. BTW, the demand for these motorcycles has escalated exponentially as on-line motorcycle mags have proliferated. The fact is, for a motorcycle to survive in a press fleet, its reliability has to be that of a stone ax; any chink in its armor will be exposed immediately in the hands of someone whose job it is to find that chink. It’s an easy out to blame “marketing” or the fleet center, but they cannot be expected to do after-the-fact engineering; they keep ‘em, gassed, tuned, and shiny, not engineered. I do not agree that Buell should control marketing, per se. What they should do is provide marketing with motorcycles that can survive the experience. From the press perspective, Buell is fortunate that its reputation is under the control of a very savvy, very passionate Buell champion roadracer. Would that other companies be so lucky. Interesting that you should draw a distinction between Cycle World and Rider. I’m not sure why you think it more likely that Rider would receive a less-than-perfect bike, but I’m sure Mark Tuttle will be , uh… amused. The industry recognizes that Buell and CW have a “special” relationship, but this shouldn’t be. “Fix the dealers?” OK, there was my laugh for the day. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Hell if they had a lot of issues the non issue about the handful of bikes with headlight reflectors that wear out over time would not be brought up folks would be complaining about lots of serious stuff. I think safety issues are a hell of a lot more serious then ones like pinging and surging. If your headlights aren't worth a crap and you can't be seen by other traffic I'd consider that significant. If your bike stalls when riding it (check the 1125 board) that's a serious safety issue. Furthermore, at Homecoming last year the engineer (self described) stationed at the headlight assembly area wasn't even aware of the headlight issue. Bottom line, Buells have a poor reputation for quality, as does HD. Personally, I don't ascribe to that be belief but people do as I've heard it many times over the years. If Buell's are ranked as high in quality by JD Powers then by all means market that information to the public. In the meantime, Buell should try not to be their own worst enemy. Mr. Buell made mention of the TT and the coloring book marketing blunder at Homecoming last year and he appeared none too happy. I bet he has similar feelings in regards to the Cycle World debacle. | ||
| Ducxl |
the non issue about the handful of bikes with headlight reflectors that wear out over time Someone is in a state of denial. THat person has lost most of his credability with such a statement | ||
| Regkittrelle |
OK, full disclosure time. I received an e-mail (and thank you) reminding me of something. I write a column for American Rider Magazine. It is under the same ownership umbrella as Rider Magazine. How important this is in assessing my comments to Dave is up for you to decide. The sender thought it important, so I'm tellin' ya'. | ||
| Davegess |
I was not trying to dis on Rider, I get the occasional piece in American Rider myself, just as an example that if you were going to cut corners than cutting them for the biggest mag in the business would be a really bad idea. Mark puts out a very nice mag and there reviews are much more focused on actual street riding than most mags. I like it. And you are spot on about Buell being tiny but because of the H-D connection we all expect that level of resources to be available. And they certainly are not. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Hmm, weather bad where you are? Time to get out in the fresh air & burn some of that expensive gas before it's all gone. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Yea, Grumpy, thunderstorms all day....tomorrow will be beautiful | ||
| Spike |
Sorry Dave, I can't ignore that one. You're factually wrong about the Firebolt headlights. Here are the headlights I've had on my Firebolt:  The headlight on the left is my original high beam that has been on the bike for the past ~32k miles. The black section you see isn't some odd shadow, the housing has really turned black inside. The one in the center is my original low beam from when I purchased the bike in '03. During the bike's state inspection in '04 the low beam was so dim that the technician couldn't even see the light pattern on the wall to check the aiming of the headlight inside the service department. We actually turned off the lights on that side of the service department to be able to see if the headlight was adjusted correctly. The bike had ~11k miles on it at the time. That low beam was replaced under warranty and the part was never requested for inspection by HD/Buell, so after 90 days it came home with me (I was working as warranty admin at the dealership). An interesting tidbit- replacing the low beam was such a dramatic improvement that my wife didn't even recognize my bike. On the way home from work that day I ended up behind her at a stoplight. She saw the bike behind her in her mirrors and thought it was a Buell, but the headlight was so bright that she assumed it couldn't be my motorcycle. The one on the right is my current low beam with ~21k miles on it. As you can see, it's in far worse shape than my original low beam. I've yet to read of a single case of a Firebolt owner opening their headlight to discover that the original reflective coating is still intact. Not a single one. If you can find one and show it to me, I'll accept that the headlight issue has not affect every Firebolt, but you'll still be a long way from demonstrating that the issue only affects a "handful" of bikes. All of the evidence I've seen to date indicates that it affects every Firebolt. I'd love to just order a set of replacement housings and be done with the issue, but based on the available evidence I have no reason to believe that my next set of headlights will last any longer than any previous set. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please share it with me. | ||
| Mikexlr650 |
saintly tried this (after his caught fire, and before anyone asks they were stock bulbs in housings that had never been opened!), he checked the lenses on every firebolt in our group. the bikes ranged from 03-07 model years with at least one from every year. every single set showed signs of failure. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I don't doubt good JD Power ratings for XBs after 2003. I would be surprised if the 03s faired well. the 1125 might do well next year, but 2008 will be nothing to brag about. | ||
| Oddball |
If I may ask, what was the coloring book marketing blunder? | ||
| Diablobrian |
I have to agree that the firebolt headlight issue is anything but minor. I take every precaution I can to ensure my own safety when riding, but it's kind of a moot point to have reflective stripes etc. if your headlight is dimmer than a flashlight. There are efforts being made in the private sector, but I would appreciate Buell taking this one by the horns and making this into a true non-issue. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Oddball, Must have something to do with the contest for designing graphics for the TT white number plates. Don't know what went wrong though. |
