| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
I stopped in at the local Humane Society Animal Shelter last night and got the name of someone in wolf rescue. I think the number goes to a Madison prefix, and the funny thing is the wolfdog owner moved here from Madison about a year or two ago. Who knows, I might just be reuniting old friends, or old adversaries, either way it might get interesting. Just been waiting for 9:00 to call.... And already under consideration from the moment the officer said nothing could be done until a crime has actually been comitted and I asked and was answered, came down to the standard age old "reasonable and prudent man test". Those are the main guidelines I'm following in seeking a reasonable resolution to this situation, but I will do what I have to do to protect family and friends should that become necessary. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Just think of children and pets in your back yard as an "attractive nuisance" for the wolf. The legal ramifications are horrific if you think about it. Can just imagine the defense attorney telling the jury you didn't take proper precautions to protect them. FYI, I really like wolves and other non-domestic animals. They are really beautiful creatures of God and to have one as a pet would be a very rewarding experience. However, if kept at pets, I feel it should be under more natural circumstances. In essence, a fenced in patio/balcony would not be considered natural...at least not to me. What a country we live in, especially when you look at the gray areas. | ||
| Kevyn |
MikeJ, not making light of your situation at all and I'm in complete symathy for your concerns for your family and your pets safety and well being. Like Nevco1 said, the animal is out it's natural environment. Ms. Wolf is now dependent on humans for her total existence. Like all animals, it's running on instincts honed from centuries of survival in a Darwinian environment. Any 'thinking' or 'thought like' activity we attribute to it are simply survival skills, manifested instinct. Good luck, I know all will turn out well for you and the family. Your concerns for Ms. Wolfs' well being will lead to a safer and more secure existence without any brutal interruptions. | ||
| Mikej |
"Can just imagine the defense attorney telling the jury you didn't take proper precautions to protect them. " Like taking the proper precautions to protect your children when they get onto a schoolbus without seatbelts? The attractive nuisance goes one way and not the other, otherwise all rapists would be using that argument. Some have tried and it didn't work as a defense for them, nor will it for the wolfdog's attorney. Kevyn, I know. Thanks. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Mike...was just a play on the irony of the situation. A not-so-domestic animal not properly confined is the threat of danger. Additional investigation into how the courts are dealing with wild and domestic pets (Wolves, Pit Bulls, etc) in the State should give you some further ammunition concerning prevention in this issue. | ||
| Mikej |
I know what you were doing Bill, I was just playing back. So far the DNR, from what I've read, is underfunded and overworked and have somewhat deemed hybrids as not under their protocol, but since I used a specific person's name who was referenced by the owner of the wolfdog I'm thinking I may get at least a slight response. I'm not really in favor of dangerous breed laws, I'm more in favor of dangerous owner laws, and prosecution under a gross negligence clause and if necessary negligent homicide prosecution is perhaps what is needed in more cases. Willfull gross negligence with heightened penalties is also needed in some cases as far as various pit and other breed legislation instead of overly vague legislation. I actually had people looking closely at my Chessie and wondering if he was a pit cross due to his somewhat blockheaded appearance, I just attributed his appearance to stubbornness at times. Off to another meeting and check email. Gets hard to stay awake at times. | ||
| Dynarider |
the officer said nothing could be done until a crime has actually been comitted So you have to wait until the wolfdog kills or injures before anything can be done?? Thats the cops for you, why not remind the cops how they handed one of Dahmers victims right back to him because they couldnt see a crime being committed? I love animals as much as anyone, but a hybred wolf does not belong on a balcony above little kids. If it came down to my grandson & his well being & my concern for his well being or that animal then I would do what was needed. What good would it do if the wolf attacked & the owner said after the fact "she has never attacked anyone before"? Its a wild animal & those instincts are very strong & will take over. Dont wait until the horses are all stolen to lock the barn. | ||
| Mikej |
The officer flat out said that if he threatened to punch me in the nose that I couldn't do anything about it until he actually did try to hit me in the nose. When I said his threat to hit me might be considered disorderly conduct he went on about how it being a dog or a wolf doesn't matter since they're the same thing. I'll be talking with the city officials this week regardless once I hear back from the DNR and a wolf rescue group. Sometimes life isn't fair, but there are ways to balance the scales a bit regardless of that fact. And when one of the trees in the yard comes down soon further exposing the critter I'm sure even more will start to come to light. That reminds me, I have to check with the city to see if I need a permit for that. (And, no, I'm not going to accidently fell a tree onto the wolf porch.) | ||
| Nevco1 |
Sounds more and more like the "Wolf" should be rescued from its current owner. Interesting analysis on behalf of the Officer. Wonder what he considers to constitute "Assault" charges in Human vs Animal World. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Hmmm...Big Wolf could feed VC Vil for a week or more. May want to anonymously post pic and directions on local VC online forum. Perhaps leave ladder in your back yard in case they need it. Better than gun solution, eh? | ||
| Mikej |
No ladder necessary, just walk under the balcony and raise your hand to touch it's nose or dripping tongue as it hangs down over the rain gutter outside of the railings. I'll post a pic of it if I get a chance and get the scanner working again. Assault in animal/human interraction would come under the reasonable and prudent man judgement by judge and jury should the need arise. Based on what I witnessed last night the wolfdog can not be trusted totally even with the owner present should the wolf decide it wants to do something. More data and notes taken and filed away. | ||
| Grndskpr |
Additional investigation into how the courts are dealing with wild and domestic pets (Wolves, Pit Bulls, etc) in the State should give you some further ammunition concerning prevention in this issue. Why pit bulls, you bring up breed specific laws, that have no basis in this quest for information, Pit Bulls were the #1 domestic animal in the US prior to WW2, the highest rank ever reached by a dog was by a pit bull, pete of the little rascals fame was a pit bull, i think Mikej is more corect when asserting there should be a simple yet effective law that protects everyone from every dog IE(chicago is such a great city) 3 bite rule, dont care what kind of dog, nor who ownes it 3 bites and your out, Now onto Mikes problem, maybe you should consider dog repelant around your yard, maybe a bottle of amonia/h2o mix in a spray bottle if this wolf og scares you, fire works have been known to scare some dogs, so maybe you should keep some fire crackers at the ready to scare the dog back in to the house when you go out, maybe a higher fence is in order, or dont leave your pups unatended at any time, i really am kinda concerned due to the what if attitude, has this dog done anything to scare you???Or are you more concerned about what could happen, maybe she looks over the fence due to be alone, maybe she longs to have more comapany or to be part of your pack(a dogs main goal) Remeber i have benn accused of one of my dogs biting some one, and yet when questioned the individual could not even name the color of my dog, i have seen both ends, and if the people on either side of me wanted to make a case they could, but maybe i dont know all the facts, maybe you could lets us in on your fear Roger You could always get a pitt, and you would never worry about your wife, property, grand kids, life, or anything for that matter, most people have a fear that is inspired by fighting, and some of it is true and other parts false, but i can say, living in the city, i would never be with out one or 2, maybe 2 sooner than later Roger | ||
| Phillyblast |
You could always get a pitt, and you would never worry about your wife, property, grand kids, life, or anything for that matter, most people have a fear that is inspired by fighting, and some of it is true and other parts false, but i can say, living in the city, i would never be with out one or 2, maybe 2 sooner than later Roger As someone that owns a pitt mix Roger is right - their reputation far proceeds the breed, and is mostly richly undeserved, but that reputation is a very strong deterrent to would-be theives and muggers. I remember when I lived in Chicago (Uptown, for those that know the city) I was walking Sophie and my bro-in-law, who was visiting, asked me if I was worried living in a "bad" neighborhood. As he was asking me, one of the local dealers was walking towards us. He spotted the dog, stopped, crossed to the other side of the parked cars, walked past us, and then got back on the sidewalk, looking sideways/backwards the entire time to make sure the Sophie was still on her leash. I told him "no"  Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't worried too much about the breed itself, mostly the way is is housed and treated. It sounds like the environment may be contributing to the dog's potential instabiliity??? | ||
| Nevco1 |
Must apologize for my reference to "Pit Bulls." My knowledge of them is purely what I have learned from the newspapers, broadcast media, police and a few owners. Won't bother with elaborating as a discussion about them would be a moot point. Appreciating your responses, it would be like comparing good and bad riders or deciding what constitutes them. Guess that is what the courts are for. | ||
| Mikej |
Roger and Philly, Fear is not in my equation here apart from being afraid of what might potentially happen based on past known incidecences with wolves and wolf-dog mixes kept in a domestic household in an urban environment without sufficient room for the wolfdog to get the activity it needs and without sufficient "family/pack" interraction that it also requires due to its wolf heredity. The owner had it out on the leash the other night while we were out walking our pups and talking with some neighbors. The wolfdog owner wanted to introduce it to us to help somehow in the situation. First she wanted us to let one of the pups off leash to allow the wolfdog to interract with it, but no way am I going to trust an ill kept wolfdog handled by a careless owner with one of our pups. Kept the pup on the leash, the wolfdog interracted a bit, and nothing major happened. But when another neighbor's Corgi behind a fence started acting up the wolfdog also started acting up and it's whine with our pup turned into a growl towards the Corgi and the wolfdog started to pace back and forth in the street and pulling at the leash/rope to get at the Corgi. The Corgi was quieted down and the wolfdog slowed down it's pacing. Another neighbor who is familiar with the wolfdog was down petting it and a couple of times the wolfdog owner told the woman to back off when the wolfdog signalled to her that is was either getting nervous or about to go off again relative to either the Corgi behind the fence or towards one of the numerous people standing around talking. Seven adults talking by the street by a neighbor's backyard, two 8-9 week old pups on leashes, one 6 month old Corgi loose behind a 3' chainlink fence, and the wolfdog on a rope leash in the street after sunset under a streetlight. Probably wasn't the best of situations to introduce the wolfdog to newcomers. The biggest problem here is partly the absenteeism of the owner, and mostly the minimal containment of the wolfdog. The biggest thing to remember here is that a wolf is not a dog, and a wolf-dog crossbreed is neither wolf nor dog it is both in one package and has traits and tendancies of both. A wolf and a wolfdog have extremely strong predator/prey instincts, and this instinct is what many attacks stem from. They are unpredictable to anyone who is not familiar with wolf behaviorisms, and are never fully trusted by experts who are familiar with wolfdogs. I spoke at length yesterday with a woman in Madison who is associated with a wolf rescue group, and she was against ownership and breeding of wolfdogs, and she reinforced my concerns about the situation. But in the end unless something happens there is not a whole lot that can be done. I have no real issue with someone owning an animal, be it a pure wolf or a black panther as someone owned near where I went to high school, AS LONG AS the animal is properly confined, controlled, and properly taken care of. I have a cousin who raises pits in Oregon and uses them in pulling competitions. When I volunteered as an Animal Control Reserve Officer in Placer County, California I worked closely with the guy who was "the" man to go to when a pit variety came in or when there was a call to respond to in the field. A properly bred pit is very people friendly and any person should be able to break up a pit dogfight without fear, at least that's how it used to be. Then things changed. I worked at a company with a woman who raised American Bull Terriers (Spuds MacKenzie, Little Rascles, and others), and she said she watches them very closely and has had to cull some in the past who exhibited aggressive tendancies towards people. When she had company over she watched her dog(s) very closely, not because of what the dog may do, rather to how the dog may react due to what a stanger may accidently or unknowingly do. In most cases the animal is not the problem, the owner is. Roger, I've known some dogs that would attack at the sound of a firecracker instead of running away. And while I know that pepper spray doesn't work on some animals I did just last night find my bear spray cannister and that will be near the back porch inside when we have the pups or children over. The wolfdog's owner should be the Alpha member of that household, but it is my very strong opinion that the woman barely holds that title or position. And due to a number of things I believe it is only a matter of time before something tragic happens. Last night when I came home from school I saw the owner tie the wolfdog up to a tree when she needed to go back inside for something. Kids that have petted the wolfdog with the owner present while it was out on a walk off their/its property were playing down the street. Imagine three young kids running up to the wolfdog in the sideyard at dusk to pet it while it is tied up to a tree and the owner is inside upstairs. The wolfdog may just lay down and roll over and lavish in the attention, or not, and due to the animals behavior on the previous night when the owner had it out I "fear" and have concerns for the "or not" potential. Continuing my research and options. Instinct is a strong motivator, and actions and attitude and bred-in instincts speak way louder than clothing or lifestyle or genetic makeup. A mountain lion can be kept as a pet, but it should never be fully trusted as being domesticated, the same goes for wolves, and moreso for wolfdogs. | ||
| Mikej |
"Guess that is what the courts are for." No, that is what education and responsibility are for. The courts are for the aftermath when stupidity and irresponsibility have reigned. "My knowledge of them is purely what I have learned from the newspapers, broadcast media, police and a few owners. " You're probably really loving the current concealed weapons debates then.  Hang in there and just be willing to learn. Hmmm, it is sort of like riding a bike, as long as nobody crashes everyone has fun. | ||
| Bomber |
Having some 1st hand experience with this issue, the entire term "wolf-dog," although in common usage, is a mis-nomer, and one created by the misguided people who decided to try and "domesticate" wolves. Like many, I admire wild animals, and system in which they live, and work toward preserving a reasonable amount of the system. Unlike many, I have first hand experience with this "breed," and can, without any reservation whatsoever, agree with Mike and his concerns. The animal is not a dog. It's presence in the neighbor represents a clear and present danger to all small animals and children (and, on a bad day, gownups, or those masquareding as such). the attitude shown by the police office you spoke to is unfortunate, and, likely, would get him booted off the force after an incident took place. I think you're acting prudently, Mike, and, given the ignorance of the officer(s) you spoken to already, your concern should be growning (as I believe it is) . .. . keep escalating, is my advice, til you find someone who's taking you seriously there is no such thing as domesticating a wild animal in anything less than many many generations . . . wolves, on their own, in their environment, represent little or no threat to human . . .. this ain't a wolf, and it ain't in a wolf's environment . . .. . . | ||
| Mikej |
Tomorrow I go down to city hall to check on licensing our pups and to check on general animal regulations. One condition that was mentioned to me was that an animal kept in the city as a pet has to be domesticated. I will have with me the book I just picked up today from the local used bookstore, along with about 200 or so pages of web-based documentation indicating the concept of domesticating a wolf or wolfdog or wolfhybrid or wolf/dog crossbreed. I do not, as a goal, want the owner to, shall we say, have to give up her animal. My goal is responsible and prudent and safe ownership and control of her animal. If that entails her building a huge enclosure in the back yard and the city deems that to be appropriate then so be it, if her building owner does not want that type of enclosure built on his property then she will have a choice to make in a timely manner. If the city officials deem the animal to not be a threat then that decision and analysis will also be fully documented and filed away, and I will make no secret of my doing so, nor will I make my doing so seem as a potential threat rather just making them aware of the consequences of their decisions. I have learned that there is background activity to bring regulation to the mixed breeding of domesticated dogs with non-domesticated animals in the state, but that is a slow process that usually requires a tragedy to occur before it proceeds. I have also learned that there have already been several such tragedies in Milwaukee County, but these don't seem to have received much recognition in the press, which may change in the relative near future. Background precautions can readily be brought to call should an incident take place, until then the regional status is calmly heightened. Sort of like going to look at a used car or bike or bicycle in a known bad neighborhood, while you can find problems in good neighborhoods too the potential is fairly greater in known bad areas so one's situational awareness is heightened. It's not paranoia if one is aware of and somewhat prepared for some potential act that probably won't but might occur. The police don't carry firearms because they plan to shoot someone, they carry them in case they have to, comes down to intent and the situation at hand. I guess this comes under the heading of "things to know when you buy a house". Life is just one experience after another sometimes. | ||
| Dynarider |
Note to self, do not buy house next to wolf owners | ||
| Bomber |
which of course, is why we invented time, so all those new things wouldn't happen all at once | ||
| Grndskpr |
Note to self, do not buy house next to wolf owners Lets see, living next to a wolfdog or next to Dyna and that purple, flame shooting, loud as hell bike, plus he work third shift, ill take the wolf any day Note to self, dont move to Kenosha | ||
| Dynarider |
But my bike wont attack & eat your children or pets. I might tho  | ||
| Ray_maines |
Maybe your wife.................. | ||
| Budo |
The owner of the wolf is a idiot. Here in my city a police officer had a couple of pits. They got out of his yard several times. The elderly lady next door complained to the police about the dogs but nothing was done. Well she went out to get her mail and the dogs got out and killed her. They made a point in court of describing her wounds as being to the bone. So the owner, a cop in this case lost everything he owned or will ever own. He had to turn over the title to his house all of his savings and since that was not even a drop in the bucket every nickel he makes in the future will be garnished. He currently lives in a trailer on his brothers property. What about that couple in calif whose dog killed their neighbor in the hallway of their building. They too lost everything and went to jail. That woman is a idiot. If she has no conscience about the animal harming someone she should be concerned for her liability. I like animals alot, but I will not take even a remote chance a animal will harm anyone, especially a child. Talk to a lawyer jut to get a opinion about her liability. Might be something she has not considered, if you want to menton it to her. Personally, I think she is a fool. | ||
| Grndskpr |
Budo brings up a good point, sometimes the fear of loosing all or most of your property can scare a person into changing there ways, maybe you could ask the lady to keep her dog kept correctly, pass along some good web sites about proper training, maybe even contact a local club(good breeders will at times be more carefull than the general public due to reputation and income, i know the person who allows me to get my dogs, requires puppy training, socialization, and regular visits to see progress in the dogs, but remember Budo, cockers are on the kill list, and it was a child that was killed, so all dogs really need to be trained properly, again it falls upon the owner to be resposiable for there actions, not the dog no matter the breed, oh and the Cali dogs were carin(sp) terriers, breed in the canarey islands and were almost all killed off due to there agressive nature, but than again who would co breed dogs with people in prison??? ROger | ||
| Mikej |
The owner doesn't seem to have much, drives a mid-80's Lincoln, and any logical discussion of liability or responsibility involved her changing the subject with the appearance of denial. We will see what the weekend brings. This morning the deck door was closed, could be she just turned the heater on. Cairn Terrier? These? http://www.cairnterrier.org/ I think you meant these instead: http://www.presa-canario-canary-dogs.com/ | ||
| Rebelgtp |
i actually did have a wolf hybrid when i was a kid. raised him from a puppy and has probobly been the best pet i have ever had. i grew up around the hybrids and never had a problem, except for one time when he got in a fight with my dads doberman (dad stopped the fight with an oak cane, dogs never fought again). as for all the generalizations everyone says about the hybrids its just that and you hear the same thing about other breeds. mostly the people that say those things don't have direct experience with them. same goes for pits and rottys. the enviroment they are in and how they are treated goes a long way for how they act. and actually my most preditory dog i have had was one of my austrailian cattle dogs. she would hunt and stock smaller animals all the time. i will agree that there is no reason that a hybrid should be kept in an apartment (no dog of that size should be), when i had mine we had a huge backyard with a very sturdy fence. | ||
| Fuscat |
Ouch. My father owned one of the "95%" wolf hybrids when I was little. I think around 8 or 9 or so. Her name was Angel and she was a one man animal. She hated all humans but him including me. I would almost say jealous of me. She was beautiful but she had absolute killer instinct. My father had her properly cared for as a watch dog. He had to get rid of her when I moved in with him for my safety. By then I was around 12. A year or so later we moved into a place in the country with our closest neighbor being a registered breeder of the wolf hybrids. Eventually the sheriff had to come out and put both of the sire animals to sleep on different ocasions for them getting loose and killing livestock and other animals. My dad got me one of the pups they had. I named him Bruiser and I loved that dog! He was the sweetest teddy bear of a dog. Never hurt a soul. At about 3 and a half years old he weighed about 130 pounds or so. I was around 15 and he stood about 2/3 as tall as me on all fours and about 3 foot above me with his front paws on the fence! He was gigantic! He was part wolf and part Pure bred Alaskan Malamute. One night late about midnight or so we heard him making all kinds of racket outside sounding hurt like he had gotten hit by a car or something. We all came outside to find out what was going on and found my Bruiser limping and dragging on his left side. He was acting very sporadic and whining in what I can only describe as retarded movement. We rushed him to the emergency vet to find out was wrong. The doctor got in and began to check him over. He immediatly called the liqour store owner from down the street and had him stay open to wait for us. We got there and he gave us 2 pints of Everclear grain alchol. My father and I went back to the vets office with the liqour and the doctor hooked them into IV's right away and began pumping pure grain alcohol into his body. He was going into a coma at this point or cardiac arrest. I lost my best friend that night. The Everclear alcohol was too late, it couldn't break down the crystals that had formed in his liver. The direct result of Antifrees in his system left out in a oil pan by our neighbors. Now Dyna in their defense it was not done intentionally. The fact is he escaped the fence and he drank the sweet substance he found. However you can see that your comments struck home to me pretty harshly. A young boy's life lessons becoming a man are always in his mind but to have it put so cruely is a shock. I know you meant no ill to me personly. You had no idea. And I agree with your path of thinking. If this were my situation I too would do what had to be done to protect my family. I did however have to retell that story out of respect to my dog. Don't feel an apology is neccisary I just wanted to give you the other outcome of your scenario. Even if the owner of the animal is irresponsible and may not even care the end result of the animals life is the same. Sorry to go on I just wanted to say my few cents. | ||
| Dynarider |
Fuscat, I understand your story & sorry it happened to your pet. I just threw that antufreeze deal out there, I have never actually heard of anyone doing it to an animal. But believe me that if it came down to a choice of protecting my family or doing nothing because the authorities didnt want to get involved & the owner was negligent, believe me I would have no qualms whatsoever with killing the animal. Obviously as of right now the animal hasnt done anything, but Mike is correct to be vigilent & persue that the animal is properly taken care & restrained in needed. And if...thats if...the wolf-dog did manage to get in or attempted to get into his yard, I would hope he has the biggest damn baseball bat available & dont be afraid to use it. Animals, especially cross breds are a lot like Buells. Some are good & decent & bring a life full of joy, others are just mean tempered evil beasts. | ||
| Fuscat |
No worries Dyna! I wouldn't hesitate a second either. I must say: Animals, especially cross breds are a lot like Buells. Some are good & decent & bring a life full of joy, others are just mean tempered evil beasts. LOL! |
