| Author | Message | ||
     Ducxl |
Why in the HECK,are "we the people" paying 30 billion in this buyout debacle? What is in it for me? They had TWO hedge funds fail last Summer. So now,as the greedy hedge fund managers can invest with impunity how many MORE investment banks will WE be forced to save? | ||
| Darthane |
I still think all major governmental spending needs to be passed through a panel of 5-11 year olds. If you tell them what you want to spend money on and they tell you you're stupid, instant, irrevocable veto. Children, God bless their souls, have more common sense in their pinkie fingers than a whole stadium full of 'adults'. This grand experiment we call a democratic republic is failing miserably because we continue to elect 'representatives' who are anything but representative of the average American. I'm wandering...I'll go back to my corner, now. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I don't get it -if JPMorgan is buying them, why doesn't the finacial burden rest on JPMorgan? The only way capitlaism doesn't F*** anybody is when it's PURE, not this diluted goverment-run socialist garbage. | ||
| Darthane |
"I don't get it -if JPMorgan is buying them, why doesn't the finacial burden rest on JPMorgan?" ...because they can't afford to buy it on their own... ...kind of like those thousands of people making $65K a year that secured ARMs for $350K houses and can't afford them. The lenders are left holding the bag on those, just like we, via the Fed, will for this bullshit. CRAP! I'm supposed to be in the corner. >.< | ||
| Xl1200r |
Errr... maybe we're misunderstanding something. I'm reading that the Federal Reserve approved a "$30 billion credit line"... meaning JPMorgan would have to pay it back - it just would serve as a quick loan for them...I think... I still think we should get rid of the commies, though. | ||
| Xl1200r |
...because they can't afford to buy it on their own... Ok, well... I can't afford the Porsche I want, so that means I just don't buy it. Maybe I can get the Feds to hand me money to buy shit I can't afford. Madness. Anyone want to go in on an island? We'll use smashed up Jap bike parts as currency. | ||
| Ducxl |
...because they can't afford to buy it on their own... I can't afford a house right now with the name "Fido" on the front.Maybe the U.S. Government can subsidize a house for ME. What makes Wall st. a better citizen than me? | ||
| Darthane |
EXACTLY. ...unfortunately, they don't operate from any place where the skies are blue. I'm not sure what color they are, but they definitely aren't on the same planet we are. You get a mortgage, you're supposed to pay it back, right? If you don't, they take your house...pretty cut and dry, although when they're stupid enough to loan you more money than the house is worth and you stop paying, who's the true idiot? In this case, the person left holding the bag is the government, in other words, ALL OF US. Can you really see the Fed seizing JP Morgan's assets if they simply stop paying the bill? I sure as hell can't. What I can see is that money disappearing into the shadows of questionable tax breaks, etc., etc. This stinks just as bad as them buying the lenders' debts and allowing them to use the overmortgaged properties as collateral. O_O It reminds me of that Shel Silverstein poem about the boy who's dad gave him a dollar and he went out and traded it for two quarters, because two is more than one, right? Egads, stop replying to me, I need to stop thinking about this!  | ||
| Davegess |
The Fed is just trying to keep the credit market form completely melting down. No one would really benefit from that. Worldwide trade would dry up and companies would go broke right and left. We would be looking a situation as bad as the 1930's. No money, no jobs. JP Morgan is getting a loan and if the markets don't completely implode they are getting a bargain so they will likely be able to pay it back. I think the Fed was too aggressive in fighting the dot com bubble and this has lead to an even bigger housing bubble. they would h ave been wise let us feel some more pain back then. Also we have let the financial markets invent new types of investments that fall outside of our regulatory system and this has resulted in a lot of extra risk being accepted without people understanding what it was they were accepting. The mortgage companies loaned money to people who had no business borrowing it and then sold these high risk loans off in big packages to investors who didn't see the underlying shaky loans. The mortgage companies made there money up front so they really didn't care if the loan would ever get paid back. The big investment houses thought they could unload these on others and they were doing so until the house of cards started to come down. You can talk all you want about how you have no debt, a gun and 6 months of food but if the credit markets stop functioning on a world wide basis it will not be fun for anyone. It is almost impossible to live in this world of ours without credit effecting you somewhere. | ||
| Davegess |
This whole thing is kinda like a big fire. Unless you are a firefighter you are really in no position to know how to fight the fire. You just have to hope that the firefighters do. We just have to hope that the guys Bush has appointed to run the world of finance know what the hell they are doing because they are in uncharted waters. | ||
| M1combat |
It's just the beginning. The chairman of the fed reserve recommended that banks who hold a large number of mortgages that will "probably" foreclose just plain FORGIVE 1/3 of that debt to bring the payment down to what the tenant can afford. Why? Because the chairman knows darn well that if they don't lose 1/3 they will lose a LOT more. It's not about giving people things at this point it's about saving the economy. I'm still against it. I'm fine with trading in guns, bullets and gold. You don't make $30B mistakes and then charge ME for it mother •••••••• Anyone hear of the Amero? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Nice summary Dave! It's a no win situation, thats for sure. When we bought our last house, just for grins, I looked at how much house they would finance with those "1.5% interest ARM, with interest only required payments" that they were trying to foist off on us. My first thought on seeing the number, based on my income and debt load, was "are you smoking crack!?!?!?" Unfortunately, lots of our neighbors looked at those same numbers and thought "wow, I must be rich and don't know it, they say I can afford SOOOO much house". While property values kept climbing and people kept flipping houses, they could stay in denial, but it only took a little hiccup and things went REALLY badly REALLY fast. What stinks is that I now pay the price. I get paid in $, which now buy a LOT less then they used to buy. My house is worth less, because houses that should never have been built because they should never have been able to sell are for sale all around my city. My "safer" indexed retirement fund is tanking with the market. All because banks wanted more margin then was safe to go after, and individuals can't make common sense decisions about what they can afford. Publically traded companies are making *awful* decisions just to keep their stock prices reasonable, because investors want *growth*, not simple profit or equity. Its insane. Most American companies are pretty much required to sell the farm and sell out the future in every decision they make to insure growth... paper growth that is. A company can have a 15%-30% pure profit margin with a rock solid command of their industry and great work force, but be shellacked by investors because they have no growth, while a company loosing money every quarter to grow into a bigger upcoming disaster gets valued up! It's baloney! Thanks for letting me rant  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The decision to "bail out" the credit mess is nothing more than a political strategy. Citizens are no longer required nor do they expect to have to live with the consequences of their decisions. Get a larger mortgage than you can afford? Momma Government will bail you out. Build your house in a flood plane? Momma Government will bail you out. Build in a known hurricane track? Momma Government will bail you out. Build in a perrinnial wildfire zone? Momma Government will bail you out. Don't want to pay for your parent's prescriptions? Momma Government will bail you out. Don't want to pay for your kid's education? Momma Government will bail you out. At some point in time, this all has to stop. We are crippling ourselves and our children. Vote for the candidate who will give us LESS, not more. Unfortunately, we don't have that option this go around. | ||
| Court |
>>>>how many MORE investment banks will WE be forced to save? Two. Think utilities. I exercised all options today. The feds put no one in this mess and, as much as I am not keen on them intervening, there is merit to the argument that the only real choice they had was WHEN to spend some taxpayer funds. Funny thing is but just about the time in life you figure out you can write a check for that Porsche you also become smart enough to do the simple math and say . . . "what if I bought the cheapest vehicle I can that meets my needs and invested the rest?" Then when you start to see that the earnings on invested bucks are much more fun . . . . The government can be everybody's mommy and daddy and they didn't offer the nipple . . . . the babes came a suckin'. Good time to get the financial roof bolted down. If you owe a nickel on revolving credit, it's not a bad time to do the "what if I had to go with no income for 6 months?" drill. | ||
| Aesquire |
As I understand it, the reason JP Morgan did the bailout is the rules for short term lending from the fed to the banks ( to prevent short term runs from killing an otherwise healthy business, see "It's a Wonderful Life" ) didn't apply to mortgage broker type companies like the Bear. It's half thought out rules like that put the housing market where it is, at least partly. To encourage home ownership, ( renters crap on their homes & 'hoods, owners clean them up, is the logic ) they changed the rules to permit/allow/require stupid ( & VERY profitable ) lending. The above explanation is incomplete, oversimplified, opinionated & in part, probably wrong. I'm house hunting & am thinking I should buy a 1/2 million $$$ house that I cannot possibly afford & let the Govt. bail me out. Too bad I'm not that evil a gambler...... or am I? | ||
| Crusty |
it's not a bad time to do the "what if I had to go with no income for 6 months?" drill. Been there. Done that. Don't really want to go back. Is it better to spend 30 Billion bombing Iraquis, or is it better to spend 30 Billion helping the Economy? | ||
| Slaughter |
F*ckemall. Who are these greedy, clueless borrowers and equally greedy, clueless lenders? Yeah, there's a RISK to the economy if they're not "bailed out" but I have a hard time being enthused about it. I work for a company that was bailed out by a government loan in the 1970's and the banks/government profited handsomely JUST from the interest payments - ignoring the products they'd gotten since then - I still say it's a slippery slope. My ex-wife and I were both working when we bought our place. The prime had that year come down below 10% for the first time. We bought our place for a 7.5% 30 year assumable loan. Our primary criteria was that we be able to make payments with ONLY ONE of our incomes. People couldn't understand why we weren't getting "more house." I'd like to try heroin, maybe some crack. I bet it would be a rush! I know also that after a while, I'll be paying a high price. Same-same ARMs. | ||
| Bill0351 |
When my ex-wife and I refinanced our (now her) house a few years ago, we were worried because she had a new job and had only been there a few months. That was after a long job search had left us overextended. We were barely making it week to week with my income, and we were slowly sinking into debt. Then the mortgage place tells us that we don't need her income for the application because I made enough on my own to finance it! CRAZY! The payment was more than 50% of my take home pay! Is it any wonder those places are folding? Bill | ||
| Court |
>>>>Is it better to spend 30 Billion bombing Iraquis, or is it better to spend 30 Billion helping the Economy? Tough call. Most the $30B being spent bombing is being spent here in the US, it's been an element that has buoyed our economy and the news has been fat the last couple years with stories like the husband and wife who were in the pits, started a ballistic vest company and have now solved the unemployment problem in their small town. The funds spent on the war are likely doing more good (disregard for a moment the "war" element) than a $30,000,000,000 handout would. Handouts tend to get lots siphoned off the top, wars tend to pay a premium "we need it now" cost. My answer, from a pure economics sense, would likely be that spending the $30B bombing is the best way to buoy and economy. And . . . the news get better. . . when the war is over, guys like me will be worth a fortune. Vickie has refused to let me go (the money is about 4.5X what I am currently earning) in my advancing years, but if the war ends maybe she'll let me do one tour. Having 35 years experience building power plants and cross country transmission lines faster than anyone else is a good commodity right now. By the way . . . I got a great kick and fond memory reading that "50% of my take home pay". Gads . . . I recall buying my first house at 1830 Washburn in Topeka. I agonized over the $30,500 price and how I'd make the $249/mo payment. I was going to school on the G. I. Bill (NOTE: I was a Marine but NEVER DEPLOYED) and working part time as a mechanic. So did the fed jump in front of the gun and take the bullet for the American consumer? Tough to say . . . . personal debt, credit card balances and so forth have never been higher. We are, for the first time in history, a society exhibiting collective "so what, if I don't pay, they'll just come take it" behavior. That's new. I've been invited to speak on 4/21 and 4/28 to young engineers on personal savings and investing. I'll use my old example where each minute of my talk is a year. I'll have one of them "invest" $1 when I start, another half way through and the third 10 minutes before I am done. Then the conclusion of my talk will be giving each of these 3 folks a clear box with their "nest egg" in it . . . you know the moral of the story. The reason a 6' xmas tree costs twice what a 5' does is because you are buying the bottom foot, not the top.  . . . my kids are thrilled to be grown and gone . . . for years I harped at them (never insisted) to "start saving $1 per hour" when you go to work. Interesting economy, interesting society. Show of hands. . there are 15,000 folks registered here . . .how many are in forclosure, have been in the last year, or expect to be in the next year? My theory is that many motorcyclists share the common experience of financing (I remember buying my $18,000+ Buell in 1990) a purchase and have learned, perhaps because of it, to be decent financial planners. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I'm not in foreclosure but if I didn't work ,eventually, I would !! I have a friend who's brother lives under a bridge in Florida. I figure that's as good a place as any to be homeless. | ||
| Oldog |
These are all sobering thoughts, I hope to be out of debit in about 2 years If all goes well. to my simple mind the rampant greed is beyond my ability to comprehend. | ||
| Smokedaddy |
... and I told you guys 6 years ago this was going to happen, including my bankruptcy statistics posting and to think you blew me off ... and you haven't seen anything yet ... Yes the sky is falling! -SD: Oops, sorry ... I'm supposed to be in denial like everyone else. (Message edited by Smokedaddy on March 19, 2008) | ||
| Court |
Haven't read this yet . . . looks interesting. http://www.alternet.org/story/79988/ | ||
| Darthane |
"My theory is that many motorcyclists share the common experience of financing (I remember buying my $18,000+ Buell in 1990) a purchase and have learned, perhaps because of it, to be decent financial planners." ~~~>Court Heh...I don't know about being a decent financial planner, but I do know I'd have a lot more money if I DIDN'T ride. ...then again, without the two motorcycles in my garage, I'm pretty sure I'd be a hell of a lot more stressed out, and bikes are cheaper than medical bills...right? I do think my bike purchases put some things in perspective financially and I'm much more responsible about it than I used to be. I've cleared my credit card debt, have a fixed-rate mortgage, and three of my four ICE vehicles are paid off...it's time for another trip to Hawaii! ...or maybe just camping, and I'll save myself a few thousand bucks.  Dave, I agree on the comment re: firefighters. That's one of the reasons I try to avoid commenting on things like this, but being on the outside looking in and seeing what you can only construe as lunacy, eventually the frustration bubbles over - and it's not just me. Americans have the lowest opinion of our government now than they ever have had before - and I'm not just talking about the President. Congress (remember them? Everyone gets so down on Bush they forget about the rest of the damned decision and policy makers that have gotten us into this mess) is also enjoying exceptionally low approval ratings. (Message edited by darthane on March 19, 2008) | ||
| Ducxl |
They were talking yesterday on CNBC of flying the "Hammer&Sickle over the Capitol | ||
| Brumbear |
I really do not know what to think anymore. We as a nation have created this monster with the way we tend to live IE "I can have anything I want just sign" the lenders saying I don't care as long as I get my commission and loan out my quota. The state governments hiring people not qualified for positions The fed the same. Misappropretion of funds for roads and such,Teachers unions that have gotten to strong IE my 6 year olds gym teagher made 100K last year my son was in KINDERGARTEN they don't have gym. Health ins that most can not afford which then most do not have which supposedly drives up the cost of said ins.And finally trading of OIL on the market given all the above examples why are we letting this go on and expecting anything good to happen. ACCOUNTABILITY is saddly lacking for anything other than traffic tickets Rome might be falling people | ||
| Rubberdown |
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Bad judgment, scandal,corruption, fiscal irresponsibility, pandering to special interests, adventures of folly in far off lands ... it's all been around a long time. Good times, bad times ... we'll survive. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Speaking of a lackluster government... Anyone watch the special on all the Presidents on the history Channel on President's Day? Anyone notice that there really hasn't been an exceptional once since the last one that actually FAUGHT in the revolution served the office? I think we can see what I'm getting at... In terms of my financial responsibility: Being a recent college grad, I'm in a bit more debt than I would have liked, but not bad at all compared to friends. I have a car payment and student loan payments. I have enough cash laying around after saving to pay off HALF of my student loans. The bike I bought outright. The apartment is the only "bad" investment I have right now, but I just can't afford a mortgage on even a small home until the student loans are out of the way. I get nervous if there's less than a couple grand in my checking account, and I pay my credit card off every 2 or 3 weeks, so they don't get a dime from me in interest. I'm living a little close to my means, so I chip in 3% to my 401(k), but my company throws in another 4%, plus 5% into a PRA account. I save three, the give me 9. Not a bad deal. I take pride in earning what I have. I wish everyone could. | ||
| Court |
My wife spent about an hour last night explaining what the fed did in this thing and frankly when she explained it. . it made a lot of sense. I wish I could recall the entire thing . . . frankly, I wish I was smart enought to understand the entire transaction. One thing I had forgotten is that the federal reserve bank is one of the govt huge profit centers and a major contributor to the treasury each year. | ||
| Bill0351 |
"Teachers unions that have gotten to(sic) strong IE my 6 year olds gym teagher(sic) made 100K last year my son was in KINDERGARTEN they don't have gym." Where does your kid go to school? My district has a top pay of right around $56,000.00. That's with 20 years experience, a masters degree, and 30 additional graduate credits. A new teacher starts at around $25,000.00 per year. It takes me almost 3 years to make $100,000.00. Of course around here in Green Bay, WI, you can get a reasonable house for $100,000.00. Bill (Message edited by bill0351 on March 20, 2008) |
