| Author | Message | ||
     Glitch |
I've heard that HD doesn't like Buell. I've experienced the fact that HD doesn't like Buell. But what I can't seem to get my head around is why HD doesn't like Buell. Could someone tell me the history behind this? I'm just one of those people that have to know "Why" used to drive my parents nuts. Now it's ya'll turn... | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Just Because | ||
| Mikej |
Glitch, One problem with gross generalizations is that they tend to assume everyone and everything is classifiable into one bucket. 'taint so. There are many individuals in the general Harley community of Harley owners and riders who disdain anything not a Harley. Classify these people as narrow minded mypoic dweebs and move on. There are many individuals in the general Harley dealership network who disdain Buells simply because the Buells are different and are not a Harley per se and because to sell and service Buells these narrow minded myopic dweeb dealers have to actually learn something new beyond memorizing a few new parameters beyond paint and decals and baggage options. Ignore these people and move on. There are some within the Harley employee base who disdain Buell because Buell is non-Union and Harley-Davidson is Union. Do with this classification of individuals according to your own preferences. There are within the Harley employee base and within the Harley dealership network a large number of individuals who have no disdain for Buell nor for Buells and in fact like to talk about them and perhaps even ride and own one of their own. Consider these people as open minded and willing to fairly discuss issues of the day and worthy of your time and friendship. Others can and will add their own opinions. YMMV.  | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Mike: The thing is, on the showroom floor we have Scott Zampach, a guy named Pete, and the rest don't come over to talk as they fit into one of the disdain groups above. Scott's great, as you would guess. Pete is a sportbike fanatic, rides his SuperHawk to work everyday (this may change as I've been told the new XB12S demo will end up with him). The parts guys seem to be ok, Joe is the guy that showed me the XB12S before anyone else got to see it, and James has been more than helpful. The trouble I'm finding is in the service dept. Right in the worst place you'd want disdain. We've got a Buell specific mechanic, although I've not been able to meet him yet. I just can't stand it when a friend spends 2 hours at the dealer to replace a defective mirror under warranty, while they act like they are doing you a favor. All this really makes me ill, but, I keep a light hearted smile and do my best to act like I'm really thankful for the favor and the time out of his day FOR DOING HIS JOB. So I just wondered why the hatred. I know the owner of the dealership doesn't want this attitude, and from what I understand has had a talk/meeting about it. But I guess it's like anything else, they'll be nice and helpful until it blows over, then it's business as usual. Oh, and by the way, my friend never got his mirror, he got tired of waiting for a mechanic to put it on, seems as though he can't exchange it even if he's holding it in his hand. He's got to make an appointment... | ||
| Glitch |
Others can and will add their own opinions. I welcome any and all responses... | ||
| Dynarider |
Heres another thought....Buell owners are cheap. Seriously. A Harley buyer will think nothing of buying a bike & before its even out of the dealership, have a big bore kit installed along with $3000 worth of chrome. The Buell guy just wants his bike & maybe..just maybe if its in stock..a race kit. Now I know some folks will indulge in their Buells & lavish untold amounts of $$$, but it doesnt help Harleys bottom line$$$$ because for the most part its all aftermarket parts. The main reason dealerships exist is to make money for their owners. They are not in business to be hangouts or make friends, if that happens its great, but its not a dealerships main purpose. They make a lot more money off of parts & clothing then off bikes. How many Harley t-shirts & chrome doo-dads do they sell as compared to Buell stuff? As far as the mechanics go, I have talked to a number of them & while some enjoy the challenge of working on Buells, a lot would simply rather come in, punch the clock & spend the day doing ez shit like oil changes or hanging chrome. Some dealerships also take the lowest senority mechanic & they automatically become the Buell tech, some relish the opportunity & others hate it. | ||
| Bomber |
I agree with all the data posted . . . but I can tell ya with some confidence that most of the senior management of HD have very high opinions of Buell, and look to the brand for significant growth in the years to come. they are, however, pretty much in the dark about Buell riders . . . . for the most part (note the qualifier please), Buell RIders like to shout that they are different from H-D riders, and have different needs and interests . . . . you hear this alot from BRAG members, wishing to distance themselves from HOG-type activities . . .. my experiece, while certainly limited to a geography (northeastern Illinois and Southeast Wisconsin) and three dealerships, leads me to believe otherwise . . . . a fair percentage of the membership are perfectly happy to go on short rides after meetings, have conversations about charity runs and the like, but don't do a whole lot of riding . . . . .I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, as each person does what makes em happy, but, if I was a senior exec looking at building a program designed to boost sales and profits from the brand, I'd be very confused byt the difference between what I hear and what I see on the dealership front, based on converstations wiht a number of principals and employees, the last 15 years or so have made it pretty easy to be an H-D dealer . . .unlock the door in the moring, take money, lock up at night (this is a huge oversimplification, of course, and does not reflect the reality for some dealers) . . . . Buell, on the other hand, is actual work to sell, more often than note (refer to Court's congratualtions of a couple of Buell sales guys for actually selling the bike, rather than taking an order) . . .. if you look at successful Buell operations, there is almost alwyas one passionate Buell person there, often the sales guy, that drags the rest of the dealership along with him (Dave in Iowa, is a good example of this . . . . it would be interesting to know what happens to a pretty good buell dealership, like Sauk, when the Buell fan leaves) . . .. . I think we may see this turn a corner as H-D sales continue to soften, and the dealerships return to selling to and servicing ALL their customers . . .. . just to keep the dors open and the lights on . . . .there are a number of Buell dealerships in my area that have never gotten a dime from me, and won't as they never seem interested in my business . . . .those that DO act like they want my business get it . . .. . the AM version is that H-D as an institution likely doesn't hate Buell . . .. but there are those in the H-D community (corporate and dealers) that are, as Mike stated, close-minded | ||
| Mikej |
Scott Z spent some time working for a bit at Hal's up here. If he's there things should slowly improve. Best way I've found to deal with bad mouthing folks is to just ask them to explain their feelings. Once you get past the rambling and mindless semantics they rarely have much concrete to say. Dyna, I wouldn't say Buell owners are cheap. I will say that many Buell owners simply find little at their dealership that they want to buy. I've never bought an axle nut cover, and even if I manage to snag that FXR I still won't be buying axle covers. Not cheap, just don't need nor want them. If Harley wants more of the customer's money then they have to sell what the customer is wanting or willing to buy. Pure and simple. Cheap has nothing to do with it. Remember, as a friend learned at Fish Day in Port Washington recently, a beer by the pier will cost $3.00, but one bought in the park above is only $2.00. If someone is willing to walk up a hill to save a buck a higher priced vendor won't get them back until they drop their price by a buck, or at least bring in something to make them unwilling to head back up that hill. If a Harley shop, for instance, wants to sell me a helmet then they'll have to match price and selection with TorqueCenter or that outfit down in south Waukesha (MotorSports?). Again, cheap has nothing to do with it. Stock what I want at a price I'm willing to pay when I'm willing to pay it and they'll have my business. Unless some jerk at their shop pisses me off in which case forget 'em. YMMV. | ||
| Dynarider |
Again, cheap has nothing to do with it. Stock what I want at a price I'm willing to pay when I'm willing to pay it and they'll have my business Agreed, but I also know a lot of Buell owners who wont fork out $80 for the millenium pegs...even tho they like them..but a Harley owner will think nothing of dropping $150 on a brake pedal lever. Obviously there are folks in both camps who dont fit that profile, but that has been my observation. a fair percentage of the membership are perfectly happy to go on short rides after meetings, have conversations about charity runs and the like, but don't do a whole lot of riding . . . . And BAM!!! Bomber hits a home run. I know we have folks here who actually ride their Buells, but there are also a lot of have bikes that are 2-3-5 yrs old with very low mileage. Obviously a few Harley owners are the same way, but I have seen a lot of high mileage Harleys & very very few Buells with over 20,000 on them. I really dont understand why Buell owners are so much against the HOG activities, yet when it comes to planning stuff they gravitate towards the exact same things...only with Buells instead of Harleys. | ||
| Glitch |
I don't think I'm cheap because I won't pay $99.95 for heal protectors  I think it's crazy to take for granted I that I would. I don't bad mouth anyone. I believe that the way to piss someone off that has a bad attitude is with sugar, not $#!T. It even helps thing out in the end when you show a positive attitude when they're expecting (or trying to create) something less... | ||
| Mikej |
"I really dont understand why" some "Buell owners are so much against the HOG activities, yet when it comes to planning stuff they gravitate towards" some of "the exact same things...only with Buells instead of Harleys." And so go the days of our lives.  Heading to Detroit on Monday, but no time for side trips in the afternoon like I usually have. Bummer. I'll be keeping an eye out for laden Buells heading this way, or that way, or someway. | ||
| Mikej |
Ya know, them there heel protectors look almost a little like wings, perhaps Pegasus wings, they wouldn't have done that on purpose would they????? | ||
| Dynarider |
Glitch, when it comes to Harley marketing, if you arent willing to pay $100 for a part then you are cheap. You have all heard the joke about HD standing for Hundred dollars...its true. Harley has gotten so used to overpricing their aftermarket parts & having folks willingly stand in a long line to buy them, that they think Buell owners are the same way. Hence the cheap label. | ||
| Dynarider |
BTW, its not just Harley thats doing the overpriced bit. Tat from American Sport Bike is a great guy & his parts are for the most part top notch, but look at the price of them. $300 or so for an oil tank? Those carbon fiber tank accents for the X1 go for close to $300 also. I realize a lot of the price comes down to development costs vs units produced & sold, but I would think at a lower price you will make up for any loss in revenue with higher volume sales. | ||
| Mikej |
No argument from me. Sittin here with wallet empty. | ||
| Glitch |
Mike, that's good to hear about Scott. Now if we could get him off that Speed Triple maybe the improvement would be faster... Dyna, I kinda agree, I mean, you can only charge what the market will bare. Therefore someone is buying the stuff. But you'd (I'd) think that if they wanted to sell the parts, they'd bring the price down to the "Cheap Buellers" area of liking. I mean, hell I done bought the bike. And even HD knows if I want something and there's a choice, I'll go to the aftermarket if it's less expensive. | ||
| Glitch |
I would think at a lower price you will make up for any loss in revenue with higher volume sales. agreed | ||
| Dynarider |
A big part of the problem is that we are not Harleys core audience. Harley is selling SE roadkings for $28,000+ & they had no problem selling every damn one of them. I dont know who the hell is buying them, but it sure as hell isnt anyone that has a normal job. They see people lining up for blocks to see & buy west coast chopper bikes or Orange County choppers. They see folks buying 6 gun grips from choppers inc for $160 & think that all bike owners are willing to blow the $$$ like that. Every qtr for how many years now has Harley posted record revenue. It sure as hell doesnt have anything to do with selling chrome heel guards for Buells or a Buell CD cases  Does anyone even take delivery of a Twincam anymore without it having a $1500 big bore kit installed? Harley could do that right from the factory & it wouldnt cost them anymore. But they know folks will spend the cash so its simply another way to separate the masses from their cash. Why is it that Harley offers a big bore kit for twincams, yet offers nothing for Buell? They could do the XB9 to a XB12 conversion, or the XB9 to a 1050cc kit ez enough. Perhaps they feel the market is limited in the amount of Buell owners who would be interested in such a program so they dont bother. Harley does literally tens of thousands of big bore kits every year, how many Buell owners do the same deal thru Nallin or someone similar? Follow the money trail & you will see where Harleys heart truly is. | ||
| Glitch |
Follow the money trail & you will see where Harleys heart truly is. Which brings me back to my original question. When it's all about money anyway, why shoot yourself in the foot? Why doesn't HD put there foot down and tell these guys to quit the foolishness and support your local Bueller. It's all about customer service. You can damn near sell anything with a smile, even $#!T. And that's what I don't understand, why smile when ya sell the bike then turn yer back, when you could very well have a repeat customer? Hell, I'd bet a dollar to a donut more people would buy Buell (that wouldn't buy a HD) if the support was there. Part of the bad reputation of Buell is lack of service. | ||
| Mikej |
Look at the guy in the Los Angeles area who just posted here today or yesterday. Called all the local Harley or Buell shops, got no response, bought a Honda instead and will be riding his new bike this weekend. Lost sale. Lost new customer contact with everyone he comes into contact with. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Interesting comments. I find them all to be agreeable, understandable and true. Could add a lot of commentary but will just stick with one that I get here in Milwaukee all the time. The only one you all missed is what I get from the Harley employees from the Milwaukee Plants and that simply is...Buell is a financial drain on HDI and negatively effects their personal earnings and retirement. Other than that, they must have received a lecture about Buell over the last year as now they say nice bike, I tried to ride one but could not get comfortable due to the head first ergo's. Translation: We don't wear no stinkin' helmets. Funny, I felt the same way about bouncing on my prostate in the feet first position on my 1980 Wide Glide. Took a lot of tender loving care to get that sucker working again! LMAO | ||
| Mikej |
With that in mind it is interesting that those very same Harley employees who claim Buell is a drain are the very same ones who assembled the engines that caused apparently so many Buell owners so much aggravation. The majority of complaints I hear about Buells comes down to stuff spec'd and assembled by Harley employees. Pot, kettle, black. Pipe, stuff it, smoke it. Moot point anyway. | ||
| Stubby |
There's the bottom line: With Buellers, FORM follows FUNCTION. Rarely do you see accessory parts on a Buell just 'cuz they "look good". Most Harley guys buy the bikes largely as a fashion accessory, much as a lady buys a $1000 Gucci handbag. It is conspicuous consumption on two wheels. GENERALLY SPEAKING, with the HD group it has to look cool, doesn't matter if it runs right or has any handling to speak of. Lotsa chrome, lotsa noise, 800+ pounds, and a black t-shirt with an ugly sneer and VOILA! You have the "persona". Now you are COOL! That's the single strongest memory I have of Sturgis... all these guys and all these bikes all look the same. Maybe a little more chrome here, some handlebar fringe there, but they are all the same... that these "individuals" would part with that much money just to look like everyone else reminds me of 8th graders trying to fit in. Which is fine when you are 13 years old, but these are 50+ year old men! Man, I just won't do it! Like Ziggy says, "Got to be true to myself". Buellers are in my experience a more eclectic group, composed truly of individuals, whose motivations are largely endocrinally oriented (adrenaline), whilst the Harley guys are trying too hard to impress... someone... I guess each other. They don't do diddly squat for me. Too much noise, not enough power, and ride like a sex with a fat lady. Buell is packaging a bike which appeals to those riders who seek performance and handling, and they are in competition with other manufacturers after the same market, the Japanese, Brits, Italians, etc. They have steered wisely away from the racebike guys who only compare performance based on displacement categories, and have instead sold the ultimate performance street bike. Relatively poor power to displacement ratio? Who cares! It runs good and is easy to ride well, and on the street this makes a huge difference. If they wish to boost aftermarket sales they should focus on performance related products... maybe a bigbore kit, maybe camshafts, whatever, and high end safety gear for that inevitable moment when bike and rider are parted in an unfortunate highside mishap. Frame sliders, performance leathers with armor? Performance mufflers? Chain conversions? Dual disc conversions? My local HD - Buell dealer doesn't even stock one single shifter, brake lever, brake or clutch lever... not one! These items break when the adrenaline junky un-asses his bike. Not one tire even that fits a Buell do they keep in stock. If Buell wants to promote the brand through the dealerships, they need to sell these sorts of things. The dealers have to be willing to "plant the seeds" with the demographic who buys these bikes. Stubby  | ||
| Glitch |
bought a Honda instead and will be riding his new bike this weekend. I came real close to buying a SV1000. If Scott Z hadn't been so Buellish I would've. I won't buy an HD, therefore HD made money off someone that wouldn't buy an HD. I don't have anything against HDs. I just don't want a "cruiser" | ||
| Smadd |
Regarding Buells that are mostly "low mileage"... I don't think Buells alone are analagous (???) with low mileage. Look at Cycle Trader or any publication that lists a large quantity of used bikes and check the mileages of the "sportbikes" that are listed. I'd wager that the majority are low mileage machines. There will be exceptions... like my 50,000 mile Buell. I participated for a while in the HOG activities (before the Buell)... I thought they were fine... I always had a good time. The Buell didn't seem suited for the HOG rides though... just not quite geared for that kind of riding. And when I got the Buell, I lost interest in the "cruising" type of riding and the associated scene. I really can't comment on the HD dealers... it's been ages since I've been to one... other than to check out the new XB's on the floor. I really don't have any bad experiences to talk about though. And I'm not a cheap Buell owner... I'm just always broke! I can think of lot's of things I'd like to spend money on right now for my bike. | ||
| Glitch |
Real Rebels Ride Buells  | ||
| Jim_witt |
Dude, How could a freaking Buell owner be called cheap! They take a underpowered bike (by other sportbike standards in the same price range) and pour money into it to acheive more horsepower, making it more unreliable. How is that being cheap? On to the other topic, once Buell proves it has over come its' past problems (you all know that the heck they are) they won't have a problem selling the pup(s)! -JW:> | ||
| Nevco1 |
With that in mind it is interesting that those very same Harley employees who claim Buell is a drain are the very same ones who assembled the engines that caused apparently so many Buell owners so much aggravation. Yep...Them's the one's!!! Not to mention a few are in engineering and quality control. LMAO Interesting how we have very few, if any, problems with anything but the engine and drive train. God Bless you Erik...and may the Devil get those that have held you back!!! | ||
| Mikej |
Word has it that Erik has been known to flip other riders kill switches on rides and turn off their keys. Success is the best revenge. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Gee, that will make me feel right at home (read: So Cal). Is the old, what do you do when your engine blows scenario. Great training and a lot of fun once you get over the first surprise! |
