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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 08:57 am: | 
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HOMOLOGATION MILESTONE FOR MALAYSIAN SUPERBIKE
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Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 09:09 am: |
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While alot of folks seem to be focusing on Buell making streetbikes, I don't know that the sportbike market is entirely accepting of that stragety. Buell is marketing the XB's as sportbikes, and the expectations in that category are different. It seems to me that Honda/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Yamaha/Aprilia & especially Ducati have absolutely relied on racing to sell sportbikes. While victories & championships in the major racing classes are good, most all of the bikes are fairly competetive. The "back of the pack" bikes don't seem to do as well on the sales floor; hence the constant revisions. I think that top-level racing machines from the J4 all fold into the same mold for similar reasons; primarily cost control. I-4's are cheaper than V's, and general familiarity with I-4 design avoids "learning curves" with other configurations.
I think Buell has a potential market position better than that of Ducati. I would guess that if Buell made a 600-class bike littered with "techno-babble" (within the current rules of the FIM, but preferably AMAPR) and priced it VERY high (say 15-20K) AND raced it with a good effort (top five) then it would sell. Build it ala 999R, with top Ohlins stuff, Brembo radail rim-mount brakes, Marchesini forged Al wheels, etc.
Racing in AMAPR? What's going on there? It was disappointing to watch the superbike races this past weekend. Our recent best (Hayden) has gone to MotoGP where he finishes mid-pack, and you can't blame that one on the bike. The current superbike series is dominated by Mladin, who has shown he can't cut it on the world scene. Ben Bostrum is a shadow of his former self, and I think Eric's getting pretty frustrated too. Where are the young fast guys ready to take on the world? And, what's up with Dunlop? Two riders retired with shredded tires on bikes that make signifacantly less HP than motoGP bikes? It's time to step to the plate. If Bridgestone can challenge Michelin, than what's their excuse? I thought I read that Dunlop brought world superbike tires over for this event, what does that tell you? AMAPR used to be world class, now it seems its a retirement home.
Preparing myself for subsequent abuse. Duck & cover.... |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:04 pm: |
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JQ,
Yes, it is of note BIG and extremely unfortunate that the leaders of AMAPR are liars. It is significant when anyone in a position of authority and power displays a complete lack of integrity, especially when it directly impacts the good intentions and hard work of others. You really need to think hard about your apologist stance wrt AMAPR executives.
I think everyone here agreed with you that Buell PT machines would be more equitably served in the new FX class than in Superstock. Doesn't mean they will be competing for the series championship. But maybe they will, who knows. Cicotto's letter carries a bit more clout than yours, don't you think?
If FIM abandons any type of restrictions on four cylinder machines in WSB, they will be assigning the obsolescence of the liter-bike twins. That would be unfortunate. I have read the same rumor concerning the 2004 WSB rules as you. I strongly doubt that WSB will abandon all attempts to maintain parity among twins and fours. If they do, it will be a sad, sad day in motorcycle racing, and will simply prove that FIM like AMAPR has fallen victim to the influence of Japan Inc.. Do you really think that after being abandoned by the J4 factories in 2003, WSB will seek to placate them? Personally I'd rather see Ducati's and FP1's and privateer Suzukis mixing it up than a bunch of IL4 Jap factory drones dominating the series.
Whether or not I shut up depends on whether or not AMAPR can turn things around and stop the lying and deceit. Racers are in the hospital with serious injuries and AMAPR executives are lying about the circumstances for not installing soft barriers where those injuries transpired. Do you really want to support that kind of leadership for AMAPR ? I certainly don't. Jeff Nash doesn't. Erik Buell doesn't. Countless others don't. If AMAPR execs will orchestrate blatant lies in their day to day business dealings, and if they will lie about important safety issues, do you think they might also be less than honest in their adjudication of class rules and administration of racing classes? They need to go. They are dishonest and deceitful. Those qualities are never ever a good thing in a leader. If they stay, they will bring down the entire organization. They are obviously in it purely for themselves, for their greed and appetite for power. Politics (the posturing and interaction of adversarial relationships with an organization) are one thing. Lying premeditated acts of deceit by the leaders of an organization are something completely different and far more insidious than mere politics. You really should rethink continuing your support/defense of the dishonest AMAPR executives. You are so much better than that. Are you not?
Basically I see it as championing the values of AMAPR and the AMA in general. Get rid of the scumbags; install people of high integrity in their place.
I'll continue to speak out where I see bias and disingenuous rules making that is bad for the sport and unfair to longstanding competitors like Ducati.
I started this thread started not solely over issues with Buell, though that was always close at hand. I also started this thread to decry the new Superbike rules that blatantly seek to sabotage the chances of any twin cylinder machines ot compete in superbike, and the exclusion of twin cylinder machines from Supersport.
Why is it sush a personal irritation to you that you would wish me to "SHUT UP" about the issue? I think maybe you could step back, reanalyze the situation, and reconsider your position on the matter. I mean, for the longest time, you refused to acknowledge that the leaders of AMAPR were deceitful self serving liars as Mr. Buell so eloquently asserted. Instead you chose to denigrate Mr. Buell. Wrong choice. Now that such facts are evident, you still choose to ally with the liars??? 
Get real my friend. Fair is fair; right is right; repeated wrongs shall not be excused. In a leader, accept nothing but excellence in character, in philosophy, and in action; AMAPR executive leadership fails in each of those critical measures. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:55 pm: |
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Ben,
Thanks for trying to drum up participation here, but really, your assessment of the racers is way off base. Nicky is in his first year never having set foot on any of the tracks on which he is competing. He is doing extremely well.
The young guys in AMAPR? Ben Spies (18 year old from CMRA), John Haner, Mike Cicotto, Jeff Bostrom, and many others. I'll be looking for a certain young Michael Sanchez to make his debut in a national series next year. His very first year in racing he swept 7 classes in CMRA, never once failing to complete a single race. This year he is doing the same exact thing in the expert classes. Get this, he was a mountain biker before taking up motorcycle roadracing just a few years ago. He won the National Championship at the CCS race last year in Amateur MW Supersport and was on the podium in the two other classes he contested. This year he set a new outright lap record at Motor Sports Ranch. His work ethic is unbelievable. Imagine running in seven sprint classes on a blistering hot racetrack in Texas in the middle of Summer. The guy is an iron man. If Buell wants to hire a real talent who is definitely going places, Michael Sanchez is a great prospect. Better get him before Jeff Nash does. LOL!!
I have no doubt that Mladin would be running with the lead pack in World Competition. Bostrom did it when he had the support of Ducati and some competitive Dunlop tires. I agree with your assessment of Dunlop; they are playing catchup when it comes to the big bike racing slicks. They still seem to dominate the most prominent racing scenes as far as DOT spec supersport racing tires go though.
Eric Bostrom is leading riding a ZX7R and doing extremely well.
Ben is working through getting his RC51 sorted; 2nd place at Daytona ain't too shabby. He'll be back up front soon.
Don't be too sure that the GSXR1000's aren't putting down around 200rwhp. That would be a 40% jump from bone stock form. That is normal for Superbike. It is up to the rider to make his tires last. You can't just go out of every corner spinning up the rear wheel at triple digit speeds and expect the tire to last the entire race. But I do agree, Dunlop has some work to do. I understand that they are hot on it. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 04:44 pm: |
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Would having claim races be a better handicapping system?
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Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 08:01 pm: |
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Let's make it really simple, guys. Buell does not have the money of a Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Ducati, Aprilia, Triumph, Moto Guzzi, BMW, Harley-Davidson, Proton or Petronas. That's why they are not building special race bikes to meet the class rules of whatever the race organization wants that year.
Buell does not have open purse strings from Harley-Davidson in any way. So what Buell has done is to invest every cent in products you can ride, not just ogle at trackside. It has delivered incredible streetbike chassis technology by any measure.
Would they like to have a V-5 engine in one of these chassis racing in MotoGP? Sure, in their hearts, but they cannot afford it. Ducati's Superbike effort costs them over $25 million per year, and they won't even discuss what the cost is of the MotoGP effort. BMW spent nearly $2,000,000 just to put on the one stinking BMW race at Daytona. Buell isn't even remotely in that league.
So, stop asking why isn't Buell racing. It's lack of money!!! What can you do to help? Make sure as many people as you know buy Buells. The XBs are incredibly good motorcycles, so you can't go wrong in recommending them. And, when the company has the money, you can bet your butt you'll see a serious racing effort.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:22 pm: |
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Personally I'd rather see Ducati's and FP1's and privateer Suzukis mixing it up than a bunch of IL4 Jap factory drones dominating the series.
Why would you say that Blake? If the racing is good does it matter what machinery? It only matters if YOU want it to but the racing's still good, like say in the Ducati Cup, surely that's not a reason to NOT watch is it?
About those restrictors, I hear their holding back about 5HP on this years Suzuki in BSB. Mmmm 5HP, so should that be an 'only' or 'that much'?
Ben a wonderful post with regard to the sportsbike analogy except it doesn't seem to be an analogy where Buell is concerned, more's the pity. Given what Dave said wrt the finance and Buell going racing, surely win on Sunday sell on Monday applies to Buell (HD). Your rider comments are interesting too LOL
Rocket  |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:31 am: |
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Rocket,
I prefer to see machines that I admire in the race. I don't admire the IL4's much. I respect them. I just don't like them. I like twin cylinder machines.
If the restrictors are choking the privateer bikes by 5HP, how much will they choke the higher powered factory machines? I dunno, but it could be a lot more.
What is your opinion as to why the J4 refused to contest in WSB this year?
Similarly, why do you think Honda is preventing Ben Bostrom and their other AMA Superbike riders from participating in the WSB rounds at Laguna Seca this year? B-Boz is not a happy camper about that directive at all. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:48 am: |
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If the racing is good does it matter what machinery?
I still think we need a Bagger class. I would love to see the BMW LT vs The Harley Ultra Classic vs the Goldwing vs the Yamaha Venture, etc. Bags & everything on the track. Banging fairings, radios on, hell maybe even with a passenger.
Look at the huge amount of Baggers that are sold every year & I think they are being slighted at the races. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 05:46 am: |
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If NASCAR can race pick up trucks, we should be able to race baggers. I've often wondered why there isn't a two up racing series. Who wants to ride pillion behind me, any volunteers? heheheh Last guy that did actually screamed and nearly jumped off the bike as we leaned into the first turn. He used to ride a Night Train. Now he rides a Buell. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 07:56 am: |
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I'm just using your own words, Blake.
quote:JQ,
I wonder if Mike got wind of your advice. We'll see. I'm composing a diplomatic open letter to AMAPR, but will hold off sending it to RRW, AMAPR, MO, and CW until I know what AMAPR's response to Mike's letter turns out to be. I'm hoping they'll allow Buell into FX. That'll pretty much shut me up about the whole deal, as long as the tech rules are equitable.
You seem confused about my position wrt the AMA. Just because I agree with their reasoning for keeping the Supersport class as is does not mean I agree with everything the do. The story of how AMA Pro Racing began is very interesting and explains the things that are still happening today.
Do you know that story, Blake?
Again, I was the only one here posting RRW links for a couple of years ago about the behind the scenes politics going on in Pro Thunder and other AMA matters long before you found religion, Blake.
Here's the bottom line:
Buell and DUcati have no hope of being competitive with their current bikes against IL4's if they are all held to the same "stock" technical and homologation standards.
It makes more sense to run them in a highly modified class, thus the new Formula Extreme. Once they allow the air cooled twins in, everybody should be happy, but I'm sure you'll find some excuse to bitch about it.
Did you find the FIM rulebook? Please find it and tell everybody here the minimum weights for 600's and 750 twins and post it here.
Don't be surprised by what you find.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:11 am: |
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Besides, if AMA is so evil, why do you even want to race there?
Be happy in FUSA and help it to grow, but don't kid yourself, there are plenty of politics, screw ups and lies going on in that organization too. That happens anywhere where human beings with egos are involved. They just don't get as much press.
One last question.
Blake, do you take everything Erik Buell says as Gospel? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:49 am: |
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Blake, NASCAR pickup trucks? You're kidding, right? Aren't they just another tube-frame racecar with a different body?
On the racing, though, I still think AMAPR is full of has-beens. (Still damn good & would kick my ass from here to Texas, mind you, but has-beens) If Ben was there, why wasn't he moved to MotoGP with Troy? Heck, Ducati kept Xaus (for crash testing, I suppose)! Kurtis was pissed at Miguel for a last lap pass? Uh, what? Eric's on a motorcycle that was hot in 1995? There's no doubt that club racing produces potentials, but when they get to the US "big leagues", they aren't getting the training to get them to the next level. I just don't think the gap should be that wide between AMAPR & MotoGP. Mladin is dominating like Doohan; but if he's really got the snot, where's his GP ride?
Also, Dunlop is working on fixing the issue? When? Someone must be standing on Matt's neck to keep him from saying what's on his mind. After losing a rear tire at top speed once, then losing a few more, he's got to be pissed. No one stays lucky for that long; sooner or later someone might toss it down the track at full honk, and get messed up. There must be politics there I don't comprehend, if it were my team I'd be thinking hard about seeing if I could get hooked up with Bridgestone (who may be interested in expanding into the US market too). |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:07 am: |
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JQ,
Fair enough. I don't know the weight limits for FIM SS. If you do and feel they are of interest then please do tell us.
I completely disagree that the 749RS in SS trim would not be competitive. Ducati is supposedly petitioning AMAPR to get into SS, so maybe we shall soon see. Certainly on paper, a 749cc twin ought to be able to compete with 600cc IL4's. The new 749 mill is head and shoulders above the 748, at least according to Jeff Nash.
I've always enjoyed and appreciated your hyperlink coverage of the press releases and commentary on the road racing scene. It has seemed for a while though like you had some kind of axe to grind and took up a staunch position in support of the AMAPR executives (liars) and in opposition to Erik Buell (not a liar).
As to my comment about "shutting up about the whole deal", that was in reference to AMAPR's treatment of Buell. If Buell comes out with an XB12RR that makes comparable power to the other SS bikes, it should be allowed to compete in SS. I agree, the XB9R is not able to run with the leaders of the SS class. It starts out 20% or more down on RWHP. That's a hard deficit to overcome. It also lacks a full fairing, but that could be easily remedied with a special homologation run of XB12RRs or such. But the J4 don't want Buell playing in their sandbox. But letting Buell into the new FX class would seem to be a fair compromise. We'll just have to see what happens. I'm half expecting AMAPR to throw their deadline for comments back in Cicotto's face; he didn't appear to get his letter submitted before their published deadline.
I think on the whole the AMAPR organization is a great bunch of people. It is their executive management and rules making bodies that are the problem.
It is unfortunate that in order to defend AMAPR, you seek to denigrate FUSA. What kind of reasoning is that? I've not seen any evidence to support such a charge, but if FUSA management is corrupt and disingenuous in their actions then they too need to clean up their act. I don't know about your professional experience, but everywhere I've worked, I would have been fired on the spot if when acting in a professional capacity I had lied and schemed like certain AMAPR executives. Not only that, but I'd also lose any security clearance and thus the ability to work on any other special access programs. Maybe it is my background in such environments along with my own personal philosophy, but I cannot tolerate a willful conniving liar. As far as I am concerned they can NEVER be trusted. An exaggeration here and there or a mistaken opinion can be forgiven, but to blatantly denigrate another person through willful deception and/or lies, well as far as I'm concerned, such a person ain't worth having around.
I don't take anything as "gospel" but the gospel. I see Erik Buell as a man of integrity, tenacity, with relentless passion for his trade/profession and enthusiasm for his business/products. The few times I've been fortunate enough to bump into him, I've found him approachable even humble, genuine, honest, and frank. He's pretty damn interesting too. I think everything he said to RRW was true.
edited by blake on July 02, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
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Ben,
Show some respect. I don't know what "gap" you are talking about. Any of the top racers in AMA Superbike could meld right into the field of MotoGP. I believe that America has more riders in MotoGP than any other single country. I think they are doing quite well. It's a pity the only one of them that has a machine that is currently capable of winning races is a rookie to MotoGP who needs to learn the tracks before he can hope to contend for race wins.
Ben Spies is a "has been"??? He's only 18 years old! Jason Pridmore, Eric Bostrom, Ben Bostrom? Ben won six consecutive WSB races in 2001. For whatever reason, <coughDunloptirescough> he couldn't find the groove last year. But without a doubt, he proved himself a world class moto road racer. His aversion to the Michelin tires sealed his fate in WSB.
Why isn't Mladin in MotoGP? I dunno, but there are other factors besides skill and ability that come into play in such a scenario... contracts, availability of a competitive ride, comfort level of being at home. Face it, if it currently ain't Honda, Yamaha, or Ducati in MotoGP, it doesn't have a chance on a dry track. Hopefully Colin and his team will get the Aprilia chassis and engine control system into good form and he can get into the mix. The bike has the power, it lacks refinement.
I just read on MO about how Dunlop is busting their arse trying to improve their slicks for the big power that the GSXR1000s are putting down. You think they are sitting idle, doing nothing??? No freaking way. Supposedly they thought the tires they fielded last weekend were going to hold up. It's nothing new, tires have always been pushed to their limits by Superbike and unlimited GP class machines. Some of the racers are spinning them up so hard exiting turns that they are smoking noticeably. That is some pretty severe abuse. It's all part of racing for the big bucks. Gotta conserve the tire if you want to win. Out of how many entries in SB have there been how many catastrophic Dunlop tire failures this year?
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Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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quote:Show some respect. I don't know what "gap" you are talking about. Any of the top racers in AMA Superbike could meld right into the field of MotoGP.
Sure. Just like they did at Laguna WSB last year. The TOP of that class went to MotoGP, and are doing okay. I had hoped for Bayliss/Edwards scraps with Rossi watching in surprise, but they haven't materialized. There's no doubt there's talent in AMAPR, but maybe its not the learning experience it could be. Could a few more wild-card rides in MotoGP for fellas like Spies help to up the pace?
quote:I believe that America has more riders in MotoGP than any other single country.
You be wrong!
Biaggi - Italian
Rossi - Italian
Capirossi - Italian
Melandri - Italian
Yanagawa - Japan
Ukawa - Japan
Tamada - Japan
Aoki - Japan
Kagayama - Japan
Kato (God rest his soul) - Japan
Nakano - Japan
Abe - Japan
Haga - Japan
US - Hopkins, Roberts, Edwards, Hayden
Which country has the most front-runners? Hmm.
quote:Ben won six consecutive WSB races in 2001. For whatever reason, <coughDunloptirescough> he couldn't find the groove last year.
Hmm. Ben won five consecutive in 2001, not six. If he won six, he would have gotten a big bonus. 2002? Hodgson did okay. What were his tires again?
Edwards looked good for Assen, shame it rained. The bike seems to have made some progress. That machine is currently my desktop picture.
quote:Why isn't Mladin in MotoGP? I dunno, but there are other factors besides skill and ability that come into play in such a scenario... contracts, availability of a competitive ride, comfort level of being at home.
Matt's from Australia. If you're not getting good contract offers, what does that say? Edwards took a "non-competetive" ride, Ducati was an unknown, Suzuki riders Hopper & Roberts are sticking it out. You've got to want it. You want to stay home? Fine, don't call it the big leagues then.
quote:Some of the racers are spinning them up so hard exiting turns that they are smoking noticeably.
Like Rossi & Capirossi? They chunked any yet? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 03:19 pm: |
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Ben,
Give the newcomers to MotoGP a year to aclimate and learn the tracks, adjust to their new team, new bike... hopefully next year we'll see a big lead bunch battling for the win at every race. Ya gotta remember that all the Europeans cut their teeth running 125GP and 250GP on many of the same tracks that they race in MotoGP. That is a HUGE advantage. I like to think that if Hopkins were on an RC211V, he would be dicing up front. What happened to Roberts though. He is really pitiful compared to his old self. Something is going on with him. I hope he gets the bike he thinks he needs and snaps out of it.
Thanks for the correction on the MotoGP racer nationalities. I had no idea there were so many Japanese riders in MotoGP. I shoulda known the Italians though! Forgot about Marco.
Thanks for the correction on B-Boz's record too. I gotta start confirming this stuff before posting it. In any case, he demonstrated his skill at the world level. My perception is that in '02 Michelin made a big leap ahead of Dunlop with their slicks. Dunlop is still playing catchup. You've seen some of the results.
Yeah, like Rossi and Capirossi who run Michelins.
If you haven't read it, the current headline article on www.motorcycle.com is about the WSB machines at Laguna Seca. Excellent read. Lots of pretty pictures too.
Oh, I knew Matt is from Australia. Just assumed that he has been here so long that he'd have adopted America as a second home. It is hard to believe that with his staunch level of commitment and dogged work ethic that someone would have given him a shot at a MotoGP ride. Maybe not due to his lackluster year in '02. I enjoy watching him. He can be a very outspoken frank man, but you certainly cannot fault his abilities or efforts. I remember seeing him at Daytona in '01. It was like ballet on two wheels coming through the infield. Unbelievably smooth. Not once did he plop onto his seat exiting a turn.
I don't know what he had going, but before the red flag at or before about lap 10? or so, he had pulled out a lead equal to the entire back straight. Lucky for the rest of the field the red flag allowed them to correct whatever tire or gearing miscalculation they had made. After the restart he didn't pull away. Heck, I cannot even recall who won. I think Mladin won, not sure. Dang decrepit brain cells! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 03:22 pm: |
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Oh, and wrt Mladin's contract... I meant that he may not be able to get out of his current contract with Suzi. I have no idea what it is, but I think it was fairly long term at some point. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 04:29 pm: |
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I thought I read something about Matt blowing a GP ride a while back, but can't find the reference to confirm. There's no doubt he can dominate with the right gear, but remember last year he was whining like a baby while Eric put the ZX7 in Nicky's way again & again. Now he's got the overdog machine. Will we see Mladin 2002 all over again if Eric gets a shiny new Z1?
I think Ben & Ken are in the same boat. I really followed WSB for the previous two years (not this years ducati cup), and was always rootin' for Ben. He seems to have lost his desire to win. I thought Daytona would be the start of a "new Ben", but it doesn't look like he can make it stick. Some sort of depression hangover? Roberts? Gosh, who knows. Gibernau certainly goes faster on a Honda. Maybe that Suzuki really does suck, but its faster than the Kawasaki. Go Proton! There's development on the mainstage.
Amazing riding? Rossi. He is THE MAN. Plus, that Honda must be amazing. Watching corner exits comparing the Duc & the RCV, the RCV just lays it down & disappears. Loris looks like Troy wrestling the 998 last year in WSB. I think the Duc is faster, but it looks harder to ride.
I'd be curious to see what happened if Hayden & Hopper swapped machines. Would Hopper move to the front, this being his second season?
I watch MotoGP races with volume up far enough that the TV speakers start to break up, so I can hear the engines. Wish the damn commentators would shut up! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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What is your opinion as to why the J4 refused to contest in WSB this year?
It's not my opinion Blake it is their (J4) reason, BUDGET, pure and simple, as reported in MCN UK.
Sorry I can't comment on the Laguna wild cards but I'm all for wild card entries no matter what country.
You say Ya gotta remember that all the Europeans cut their teeth running 125GP and 250GP on many of the same tracks that they race in MotoGP. That is a HUGE advantage. Actually that's not true. That statement applies mainly to a few Italians and Germans. Moto GP and WSB series share only the Assen circuit and non of the European domestic series participants could claim to take in the European GP tracks. Not all Europeans participating in GP's are GP series journeymen (125, 250, 500) like say Biaggi or Rossi either, many coming from their own domestic series straight to Moto GP. What's that say for track knowledge? For the majority of Europeans competing no HUGE advantage really.
Rocket
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 09:50 pm: |
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The 749 is certainly better than the 748, but the fact remains that its heavier (470 pounds wet vs 413 for the R6) than the lightest IL4s and makes about 5 horsepower less.
Cycle world has tested all the 600's and the 749 in two recent issues, May and August, and their result has been the same both times: They liked the R6 the best, and the 749 "once again trailed the pack by a measurable margin"
So if I wanted to write rules to let the 750 twins be competitive, I would either make the minimum weight lower for the 749 than for the 600's or at least make the weight the same for both but make it closer to the 749's weight and make the 600's add weight.
But if you read the FIM Superbike/Supersport rulebook you would find the following minimum weights:
That works out to 368 pounds for the IL4's and 379 pounds for the 750 twins.
The word "token" comes to mind. It's fine and dandy to let the Ducatis in, it makes for a better show, but the rules are stacked against them in World Supersport.
Once you relax the rules to FX type rules, then anything's possible.
I like the AMA's approach to this issue. You do not. I'll leave it at that.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:00 pm: |
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quote:I've not seen any evidence to support such a charge, but if FUSA management is corrupt and disingenuous in their actions then they too need to clean up their act.
If you went to the events and talked to the racers you would hear about it first hand. If you read the FUSA Inside Info section everytime RRW covers one of their events, you would see that they have some of the same problems that the AMA has.
I'm not knocking down one to defend the other. They both have their problems, but they are both trying to do what they think is best for motorcycle road racing in the US.
You are free to attend the events that you wish.
But if FUSA goes under due to lack of ticket sales or dwindling rider entries, whose fault is it?
quote:I think everything he said to RRW was true.
So when Erik Buell said the following on November 8, 2002:
quote:I don’t want anyone to think AMA Pro Racing is the devil or anything else like that. You know, the emotions run deep there. Sometimes people forget that. They think that everyone’s just a corporate frozen mouthpiece, but we all have emotions. We all love the sport, and sometimes those get away from us.
Why don't you follow his example? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:45 am: |
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JQ,
First... It is because I love the sport that I want to see the sport and those who administer it held to a fair level of integrity. I'm a total quality guy from way back. If you are familiar with the principles of total quality management (TQM), you would understand perfectly my point of view.
Reread my post above on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 03:04 pm. It explains my issues with the AMAPR executives. Again, it is because I do indeed love the sport, that I want to see it cleaned up and run with integrity.
I gotta take serious issue with one of your statements... "I'm not knocking down one to defend the other. They both have their problems, but they are both trying to do what they think is best for motorcycle road racing in the US."
Maybe you can explain to me how the lies and deceit of AMAPR executives are beneficial to motorcycle road racing in the USA. That is simply the most outrageous statement I can imagine wrt the liars running things at AMAPR.
From penalties, to rules enforcement, to safetey, to dealing with promoters, to class rules and the structure of support classes, the executives of AMAPR have consistently exhibited a total lack of integrity; they lie and seek to deceive. Remember their excuses wrt to implementing air fence. NOTHING has changed with those jerks. Their action clearly demonstrate that they don't give a damn about the racers or racing. I cannot fathom why you feel compelled to defend and support such louts.
Concerning the 749 entering supersport racing...
If Ducati is seeking to enter Superpsort racing in America, you can be damn sure they mean to be competitive. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. They were very competitive not too long ago with the 748 in World SS. The Japanese machines have not changed that much since then, certainly not any more than the 749 versus the 748. Eleven pounds is hardly handing Ducati an insurmountable penalty. JQ, in Superbike it's supposedly now fair to pit 1,000cc twins against 1,000cc fours, but in Supersport you contend that a 750cc twin cannot compete against 600cc fours. Are you seeing conflicting logic anywhere in those two scenarios? Do you agree that liter twins will be eclipsed by the liter fours with all else being equal in the rulebook? Can't have it both ways.
Maybe you can enlighten us as to the malfeasances of FUSA. I certainly haven't heard anything from RRW that supports your contentions. Their commentary on the actions of AMAPR is quite different. Why isn't yours?
We agree on one thing and it is most important...
GO FUSA!
Blake
PS: In an earlier post you made mention of being chastised for not being a racer and having an opinion about racing. Those were not my comments; I support entirely your right to discuss any and all issues affecting motorcycle road racing. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:54 am: |
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Agreed. Jose' knows more about racing than me and I have a wall of wood. With as long as this thread is, obviously, there's alot to debate on whats right/whats wrong, with racing. It's a cool thread. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:53 am: |
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AMAPR has the best tracks, the best riders, the best TV coverage, the most factory involvement, and the biggest purses. In my opinion, that makes their series the best.
Blake, you ought to run for office in the AMA. You could then monitor and fight the "lies and corruption" and really do the sport some good. With your bulldog determination, Scott Hollingsworth and Merrill Vanderslice wouldn't have a prayer. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:04 am: |
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Doug,
I missed you at VIR, You were not there pitted next to Patrick like you usually are. See you at Summit!
Blake,
For the last time, I agree with what the AMA is doing with the new class structures, but I do not agree with the other things that they have done, I have never defended any of that, in fact I was posting them here for everyone to read until you took up the cause.
If all those "lies, corruption and deceit" got them the results that Crusty mentioned, they are either extremely lucky or maybe those methods actually had something to do with it? A bit of both, I would guess. It will eventually catch up to them and get a bunch of people fired, but not until they loose their TV contract, get sued by Clear Channel, or something like that.
quote:Do you agree that liter twins will be eclipsed by the liter fours with all else being equal in the rulebook? Can't have it both ways.
I'm not, when held to the same standards and all else being equal, a liter four will always be faster than a liter twin and a 750 twin will have a hard time keeping up with 600 fours.
Now 800-1000 liquid cooled twins could keep up with 600 fours even with the extra weight.
1200 air cooled twins? Maybe MotoGuzzi's new 122bhp 1200cc MGS-01, but not any current Buell available on the street.
In FUSA Sportbike trim (between 1200 to 1336cc's) they are getting there, but the riders are having to ride closer to the edge on the Buells to keep up with the lead 600's for the full 28 lap race distance.
There are many ways of making the rules more "fair" for twins, but the displacement should allways be the same displacement that the street bike it is based on.
Every major sanctioning body has set up the rules that way and prohibit displacement increases, with the exeption of air cooled twins in AMA Superstock and the FUSA Thunderbike, Sportbike and Superbike classes which allow things like SV700's which are challenging the Thunderbike Buells.
quote:Maybe you can enlighten us as to the malfeasances of FUSA. I certainly haven't heard anything from RRW that supports your contentions. Their commentary on the actions of AMAPR is quite different. Why isn't yours?
If you read RRW, you'l find it. But better yet, if you would actually go to either an AMA or FUSA event and talked to the riders and team owners, they will gladly give you horror stories for both organizations.
I'm just a realist, and I accept the fact that any racing organization from F1 to soap box derby is run by people with egos and will have the same issues that the AMA currently has. What needs to happen is for the AMA membership to tell the AMA to get AMAPR straightened up.
Are you an AMA member? They won't listen to you if you are not a member, you won't have the right "credentials".
To follow up to what Crusty said again, Mike Ciccoto, Michael Barnes and others had a choice last weekend, AMA at Brainerd or FUSA at VIR. Everybody made the choice that they thought was in their best self interest, but it shows where the exposure opportunities and the money is at.
Money is at the root of all this, the AMA likes making it, the Japanese factories spend a bunch in factory efforts and privateer contingencies, BMW decided to spend enough to put on their show at Daytona to great effect at their dealers, Ducati is making noises about spending more money and getting serious, and HD/Buell chooses not to put up the amount of money needed to field a full factory AMA road racing effort.
I don't blame the AMA for following the money.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:50 am: |
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Really? I do! I thought the AMA was intended to serve the best interests of American motorcyclists, not generate a profit. I agree that money is the primary motivating factor behind the lies and deception of AMAPR.
AMAPR is what it is today, the premiere motorcycle racing organization in America, DESPITE the unfortunate actions of its leadership. It exists in all its glory by pure default. It grew from a grass roots field of enthusiasts into the unfortunate for profit entity that we have today. It pretty much violates the charter of the AMA.
I would be fine with that if it were administered and run with integrity. But it is not. I hope that changes.
JQ, I read RRW cover to cover and, as you point out, regularly check their commentaries and reports provided via their web site. I don't recall seeing a single report or commentary indicting FUSA in any capacity of malfeasance comparable to the multiple such indictments against AMAPR. You claim it is there. I say show me. If you are going to indict someone, you should at least be able to provide evidence to back up your assertions.
I dropped my AMA membership some time ago. But I am a paying consumer of AMAPR's product. I've paid to attend their races, and I pay to watch them on television. That gives me as much right as anyone to criticize the leadership of AMAPR. It is their choice, should I decide to confront them with my views, whether or not they choose to listen. I'm sure Mr. Nash would listen.
Your philosophy of being a "realist", of accepting dishonesty is contrary to mine. I do not tolerate subterfuge whether it is the status quo or not. I don't agree that it is. You seem to imply that it is okay to lie as long as it benefits business. I disagree strongly, especially said business purports to represent the interests of American Motorcyclists.
And though I disagree with your assertions equating the malfeasance of AMAPR to FUSA or the leaders of any other organization, I would refuse to accept such a norm if it is contrary to what is right and fair. Does the business in which you are involved accept such behavior from its leadership or anyone else in their organization? No business in which I have ever been involved permitted its representatives to lie and cheat. There do exist such companies - Enron was one.
You say the racers have a choice. I disagree. They really don't. The racers who's goal is progress and professional career advancement do not have a choice between FUSA and AMAPR. If they want to continue to advance as motorcycle road racers in America, the AMAPR events are where they are currently obligated to ply their skills. Maybe that's part of the problem... absolute power corrupts absolutely and AMAPR AND the AMA in general have succumbed to it.
Again, and for Crusty's sake...no one is arguing that AMAPR is not the premiere motorcycle road racing organization in America. But it is for the very reason that AMAPR is the premiere motorcycle road racing organization in America that their leadership's behavior is so very troubling and deserving of rebuke.
Concerning the FX class rules... I really don't know what you are implying by saying that 800-1000cc twins can keep up with 600cc IL4's. What does that have to do with anything???
So you agree that it is unfair for AMAPR to pit liter twins against liter fours in Superbike?
There are a number of classes in FUSA and CCS where displacement can be increased even for the IL4's. Check the rules for the Superbike and GP classes. It seems that in your mind, it is acceptable to modify just about everything in an FX machine's engine except it's displacement? How the hell does that make sense? Displacement and other technical class rules are set to allow equitable competition. In FX there is no more reason to say that displacement should be as per stock as there is to mandate that compression ratio or pistons, or valves, or heads, or any other number of parts should be as per stock. If the FX class seeks to include rather than exclude interested competitors, then they are perfectly justified in writing a set of equitable rules and letting the machines friggin race. Cause in that class that's what it's all about right? It is not a stock class right? Just write the rules to provide parity among various configurations. They ought to simply call the class Middleweight GP, cause that's what it is. Other than the extreme gyrations of the engine builder trying to eek out every last ounce of performance from the engine, there's nothing "extreme" about it.
You are a big proponent of the "race what you sell" theme. I'd like to see that too, for Supersport classes. If it were up to me, the Supersport class would not be allowed to modify a damn thing inside or outside the engine nor the suspension. Fuel would be 93 octane pump gas provided by the sanctioning organization. Tires would be as per OEM. Remove the breakables and the kick stands and go racing. The racing would be just as exiting, and you could actually say that the machine that wins is just like the one you ride on the street. Why not? Why the hell all the goofy friggin rules? Is it a stock racing class or not. Why not? Because the factories would pee their pants not being able to have an advantage over Joe privateer racer. They couldn't bare to lose to a local track specialist. I for one think that would make the racing all that more interesting. Do you? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:20 pm: |
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Blake:
Even in the old "production" classes in WERA, suspension mods were allowed. Street suspension settings just weren't practical. I suppose they'd be more publicly acceptable now, but fitting race-quality suspension gear would add dough to the bottom line, perhaps pushing the cost of SS bikes above non-race-ready 1000cc machines.
Also, compromises in street jetting may contribute to the untimely demise of a given engine. And, I think the exhaust rules were a cost concession, as aftermarket systems cost less than re-fitting stock components in the event of a crash.
Likewise, somewhat in jest you posted comments about the suitability of street tires for the track & vice versa. Would D208GP-A's be suitable street tires? Or Michilen Pilot S2's? Even if you were a smart enough buyer to understand temperature vs. traction on those tires, you'd probably bitterly complain about mileage.
If factories couldn't dominate the top class, why the hell would they finance teams? You or I might race for fun, they don't. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:41 pm: |
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Let's really think about this...
Wouldn't the factories still have the top riders (big money buys the best riders)? So in the hunt for the championship they would still most assuredly win. And it would probably be rare for them to lose to the local heroes anyway. I don't see a big difference in the benefits to the factories. One of their machines is going to win the race whether it is the factory team or a privateer. They could always contract race by race with the local heroes if they wanted to ensure their brand machine finishes well.
If Don Canet and his associates can flog stock bikes around the track on street tires, why can't the racers? I'd be willing to concede the tires and intake and exhaust, but the engine needs to stay 100% stock including ECM. If it doesn't last, then that's the manufacturer's black eye, and the perfect result if you ask me. I think they would last fine though. Plenty of club racers run stock motorcycles. Supersport isn't the top class in any racing series I know. It always gets 2nd billing to Superbike.
You are right, if it came down to winning the Supersport title, I'm sure the manufacturers would start putting DOT race tires on their retail bikes. They are okay street tires if pressured up accordingly. I've done a couple hundred miles on the street using race DOT's, soft rear medium front Rensports, and as long as I pressured them up to the proper street level (34 psi front, 36 psi rear) they were perfectly fine. It was good to get some wear out of the center of the rear tire, lol. You are right though, the durability would probably be far less than desirable. Though, I've often wondered how hard compound DOT race tires would last on the street. I suspect not quite as long as their street compound cousins, so maybe around 1,500 to 2,000 miles or so depending on the abuse to which they are subjected.
A cold DOT race tire still has more traction than a street tire, just not near as much traction as a warm DOT race tire. At least that's what the Metzeler and Michelin reps for CMRA each told me.
The thing I dread about cold race tires is the effects of the low pressure. At ~30 psi cold, they are squirelly as heck, even going straight, really really disconcerting. Freaked me out the first time on the track with them. Once they heat up, the pressure comes up to proper operational levels and everyting changes. Wow. I'll not take my bike to the track without them ever again.
Oh, you'd have to close off the belly pan for racing too. I think it would be a very bold and positive thing to have a stock sportbike class. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:46 pm: |
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As far as enforcement, I sure like the dynomometer approach to that. No bike should make better than 105% of the RWHP of a stock machine straight off the showroom floor. |
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