| Author | Message | ||
     Sanchez |
As many of you know, I broke my ankle earlier this year in a motorcycle accident. It gave me a lot of spare time, to say the least. I spent quite a bit of that time photographing motorcycle racing, and I read a book called Total Control by Lee Parks. When I got back on the horse, I changed two simple things about my riding style, and they made a huge difference. I feel much more relaxed and confident than I ever have before, and I want to share that here with the rest of you now. Looking at hundreds of pictures of riders on a track gave me some insight into body position, and I decided I'd focus on that when I got back on the horse. For the first few hundred miles, I was terrified to lean the bike over, so I got plenty of time to practice at slow speeds.  The idea is simple: when you enter a corner, you should always be leaned further into the turn than your bike. The closer your bike remains to vertical, the better its suspension works, and the less likely you are to drag something important on the ground. It seems like a simple idea, but I see people leaning the wrong way every time I go out. For example, here's a demo rider at March Badness IV:  Observe that his center of mass is outside the turn rather than inside, causing the bike to lean further over. Here's another bad example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCbeS5KGpso The rider leans the wrong direction in hard cornering, and the ride ends badly for him. By contrast, here are some good examples from Buelltoberfest 2007. 86129squids:  Ft_bstrd:  Dobr24:  In my prior riding, I hung my weight off the bike in hard cornering, but I never really paid attention to it in casual riding. I just pushed on the handlebars and went. After paying close attention to my upper body long enough for it to become habit, I find I hardly need any pressure on the bars at all most of the time. I feel far more relaxed than I ever did before. I'm moving with the bike instead of against it. That brings me to the second technique, which I picked up from Total Control: steer with your inside hand and relax the other one. If you're steering right, push with your right hand. If you're steering left, push with your left hand. That way your two hands don't fight each other for control of the handlebars. As soon as I tried this, I immediately noticed I was pushing my body up with the inside hand. I hadn't realized before how much I relied on my arms to position my body. Applying force with only one hand requires you to lean with your lower back, and it takes most of the force off of the bars. It feels great! Not to sound too philosophical, but I feel like I'm one with the bike when I ride like this. I have never enjoyed riding more. And to think I owe this to a horrific accident and a shattered ankle. | ||
| Xl1200r |
These are two basic riding techniques that are so often overlooked by a lot of riders. I'm glad you came across them and found them to help - sometimes bad habits can be hard to break, but it sounds like they've made such a profound difference to you that you'd never go back. Lee Parks is good resource. Going out on a group demo ride is always a sobering yet uplifting experience for me. I never considered myself a particularly good rider, but after seeing first hand the types of people out there on motorcycles, it both scares me and makes me feel that much better about my abilities. Good to hear your back on the bike and having fun again. | ||
| M2statz |
I am never one to turn down riding advice especially FREE riding advice. Thanks for the tips Sanchez!! | ||
| Djkaplan |
At slow, sharp corners it makes sense to crank the bike over more than your body. Not a good technique for Wolf Pen at speed, of course, but you encounter plenty of corners like these getting to corners like that. Also bear in mind your body's height over the bike (which influences center of gravity for the whole system). The lower you are over the bike (lowering the center of gravity) the more you have to crank the bike over in a corner. The higher the center of gravity, the less you lean the bike for the same corner. Try that one next time, too. | ||
| Midknyte |
Also of import is where you place your head. Many people will hang off the bike but still keep their head up center. Here's a real good vid that explains it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCg3BMGe52M The very best peice of advice I've heard / received in regard to body positioning in a long while is "kiss the mirror". | ||
| Josh_ |
You might find tilting your head to keep your horizon level increases your confidence and lets you go faster. One thing I noticed about the 1125R - my legs were tired not my arms. It really helps when the bike is setup to make you ride/sit correctly. I took the ARC from PTT and picked up an autographed Total Control book. My wife and I both thoroughly enjoyed the class. Rest your outside arm on the tank, lets you remember to relax.  and don't drag your knees if you don't have pucks   | ||
| Ratyson |
I have found that many of my instinctual riding habits are actually correct habits to have. I was pretty happy to learn this. I always position my body "inside" on the turn.. it helps me look through the turn for some reason. I also find that my legs are always fatigued at the end of a riding day, but my arms are ready to go for more. this one I had to force though. I found that I was always strong arming the bars in the turns.. which meant I was fighting against the bike, and myself... making my turns much less smooth. Once I got the weight off the bars, my cornering smoothed tremendously. Also, I owe the next one to Shred. I used to ride with the foot pegs in the center of my foot, wedged into the front of the heel of my boot. Shred told me to get on the balls of my feet.. which I did. Man, what a difference that made! Even after this though, I am still one of the slower riders that I know. But you know what? My stress levels are quite low while riding in the twisties. And IMHO, that is what street riding is about, low stress fun. Now, hopefully in the next year, I will get myself on the track so I can experience the fun that is the track day. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Even after this though, I am still one of the slower riders that I know. Don't be so modest... that has more to do with the people you ride with than you, Rats! | ||
| New12r |
Hell I am one of the slower riders...... At least it feels that way to me. | ||
| Blake |
DJ, "The lower you are over the bike (lowering the center of gravity) when hanging-off the more you have to crank the bike over in a corner. The I think the above needed some clarification in that a purely vertical shift in CG has little effect upon how far a bike+rider must lean to negotiate a turn. It is the transverse (left or right) CG shift that is much more significant in affecting how much lean is required. | ||
| Djkaplan |
This isn't my theory and I just didn't just whip it out to be part of the discussion. Vertical CG will affect the amount of lean. Try it (without hanging off) and see the empirical evidence yourself. A combination of the two is more effective than just one or the other of course. Oh man, I can see now I'll be digging my dynamics book out over this. Lets see... spinning plate with a pinjointed bar with a sliding weight located on the plates edge... | ||
| Josh_ |
Hey Blake, if you have your sliderule out, tell me what will happen to the | ||
| Azxb9r |
I learned a lot from total control. The first time I read through it, when Lee was describing common mistakes that riders make, I was thinking "yeah, I do that...and that...and that...". I found the book so easy to relate to,and aimed at the problems I was having. The advice to relax your outside arm makes an immediate and noticeable difference. As someone else mentioned, in slow speed turns you need to shift your weight to the outside to keep the bike balanced. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
No math exercises until Nance gets here and I can't find my diffy-q hat either. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Vertical CG makes a difference between a Uly and an R. | ||
| Jayvee |
Counter-steering is a bit counter-intuitive. Lot of new riders don't know about it, much less use it. | ||
| Glitch |
Anyone for a good thread on counter steering?  Sanchez, good thinking! Nice graphics too. I guess now you know the true meaning behind Lean or Die! | ||
| Josh_ |
>much less use it. Everyone one on a motorcycle over about 15MPH uses it, whether they know it or not. I think Blake is afraid of answering my question. "What's the matter Col. Sanders? Chicken?" (Message edited by josh_ on November 16, 2007) | ||
| Igneroid |
Great info here! Just ordered the TOTAL CONTROL book mentioned by Sanchez. There is alot of stuff goin on that I wasnt aware of. This will help an old coffin dodger like me alot. Thanks. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
of course all of this is totally different on dirt, leaning in steep on a curve w/o counter steer and you will experience mud, dirt and gravity that puts a stop to your forward motion in a very ugly slide. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Total control is an excellent read. I found I related to it much more, and therefor got much more out of it than 'A Twist of the Wrist'. The latter seemed to be much more track oriented, while Total Control is much more street oriented. I recommend Total Control to everyone I can. Besides 'A twist of the wrist' (both books), can anyone recommend any other good reads? | ||
| Rocketman |
Anyone for a good thread on counter steering? I'm still waiting for the answers from the last thread Glitch, lol. It's been some years now. Funny enough, both scenarios presented here by Sanchez from Parks book are not a given. Try riding a 916 corner to opposite corner to corner to opposite corner, and you will find like most compact lightweight bikes they require pushing down and flicking side to side with your body more upright, similar to a motocross style. Any other way and you will not get round the first corner because of massive under-steer. Now about this steering with your inside hand. That is the biggest croc of crud and a total myth I've ever read about controlling a motorcycle. The outside bar takes precedence once banked over. Then it offers the most leverage always, which is why incidentally on a tight corner it's impossible to move the inside bar, like on my 916 for example, and it offers the most sensitive input and feedback to and from the steering control. There, back to where we left off a zillion years ago  Rocket | ||
| Sanchez |
> At slow, sharp corners it makes sense to crank the bike over more than your body. Ah yes. It's definitely worth mentioning that leaning into the turn only applies when counter steering. During low speed maneuvers, the technique is reversed. > You might find tilting your head to keep your horizon level increases your confidence and lets you go faster. Most people do level their heads. In fact, I've only seen one racer who doesn't. This guy:  I would argue that his technique isn't the best because he isn't looking as far into the corner as the guy ahead of him. He's way faster than I'll ever be, though, so I can't say too much. Josh, your head position looks much better than the guy behind you because you're looking through the turn, while he appears to be looking at you.  Looking through the turn is important not only because it allows you to see threats further away but also because it reduces your perception of speed. E.g. if you stare straight at the ground, it looks like you're flying. If you look at the horizon, it doesn't seem as if you're moving at all. Everyone has a threshold of speed at which fear kicks in, and reducing that perception lets you ride faster without panicking. | ||
| Wile_ecoyote |
Well said, one and all. Its this Badweb place that continues to make a huge improvement in my riding. The rides and the reading I do here has helped make my confidence and skills much stronger after an 80 mph get off of a GSXR. I ordered the Parks book and also the Keith Code book. With winter coming I figure there will be plenty of reading time. Of course riding behind guys like Carlos, Mark aka wolfridgerider and Jim Duncan will bolster all skills. Thankyou all for these threads that not only amuse but TEACH as well. | ||
| Etennuly |
For fun at lower speeds on the Uly, like when riding with slower company and they are leading, I get a rush by keeping my body in vertical plane with the bike. Adding further to enjoying the ride try keeping your head in the same plane, it feels like you are going much faster than you are, and it allows for another kind of test of tire grip as it becomes necessary to lean the bike further for the same corner. But hey, I don't recommend riding this way if you are really going to go fast, just if you want to make an easy ride feel faster. But then you could just drink some mountain spring water and sit in a hot tub for the same affect and save the expense of a bike altogether.  | ||
| Sanchez |
> Now about this steering with your inside hand. That is the biggest croc of crud and a total myth I've ever read about controlling a motorcycle. The outside bar takes precedence once banked over. Yes, the outside bar does take precedence once banked over. When you begin to transition out of the corner, the "outside" hand becomes the inside hand because you're steering in the opposite direction. If you're banking right, you enter the corner pushing on your right grip, and you exit the corner pushing on the left grip. Now I cannot comment on a 916, having never ridden one, but I can tell you that on a Ulysses, this technique feels wonderful. | ||
| Doerman |
And that was one very cool aspect of the Inside Pass track days. Us novices had an opportunity for instructions directly from Lee Parks. I learned a lot from that 1/2 hr session and what Sanches is reporting and eloquently illustrating here matches what I learned that day. Hrm. err.. Rocket. 916 or not, the correct technique (according to Lee Parks) is to totally relax the outside arm. Asbjorn | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Now about this steering with your inside hand. That is the biggest croc of crud and a total myth I've ever read about controlling a motorcycle. The outside bar takes precedence once banked over. Isn't the outside bar simply the inside bar for the next turn? If you are banked in a turn, you press on the outside bar to come out of the turn, but isn't that simply initiating another turn making the outside bar the new "inside" bar? Just askin'? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Recently, I did find that not leaning at all is better. It allows you to ride on the portion of your tire with rubber and stay off of the section made only of steel cords.  | ||
| Rocketman |
When you begin to transition out of the corner, the "outside" hand becomes the inside hand because you're steering in the opposite direction. No it does not, and it's incorrect to assume so. No matter what the steering, the bike or you are doing, the inside hand is always the hand on the inside of the corner you are leant into. If you're banking right, you enter the corner pushing on your right grip, and you exit the corner pushing on the left grip. I have debated this scenario many times since we have argued this point on BadWeB over the years. My own findings are not in line with the supposedly scientific findings I have read. Nor are they in line with these so called experts, such as Code and Parks, who seem ill at ease to report the actual realities of riding various machines. I think these experts take this 'standardised' explanation simply because no one has ever tested enough different types and styles of motorcycles conclusively to come up with a definitive scientifically proven answer. So the status quo is quoted by the so called experts because they don't wish to look any more stupid than they already are. Ride enough different bikes and the answer requires no science what so ever. You can feel it for yourself. So, If you're banking right, you enter the corner pushing on your right grip, ah but you are pulling on your left grip which is why the precedence of the outside hand mentioned earlier takes control, and you exit the corner pushing on the left grip, which is damn near impossible. What actually happens is you will relax your input (on either grip - for arguments sake) and the bike will stand up because of what you are doing with throttle input, thus allowing the rider to control the finer input of steering and feel from the outside grip. When you are banked over in a corner you don't initiate steering input from pushing the inside bar. Try doing so by taking your outside hand off the bar and you will soon find out the answer. Remember this is harder on a race orientated handlebar position as the leverage is not as well assisted as that of a sit-up and beg style of bike with higher and seemingly wider bars. Hrm. err.. Rocket. 916 or not, the correct technique (according to Lee Parks) is to totally relax the outside arm. I would not argue that for a moment. In fact I'd wholeheartedly agree. You need to think of what Fangio said when he won his first world championship at 40 years of age. Whilst competing in desert racing Fangio had recognised his car was easier to feel if he relaxed his grip on the wheel, so he 'practiced' driving with his finger tips rather than hold the wheel with a grip. Once he mastered this technique, Fangio claimed this was a lot to do with his success in racing. Rocket |
