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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through October 29, 2003 » AMA Pro Racing Seeks to Please Japanese Benefactors » Archive through June 24, 2003

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Author Message   Shooter Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:07 am:        More On Formula Xtreme And Buells Copyright 2003, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc. FIRST PERSON/OPINION Via e-mail I have read with interest the comments made by Mike Ciccotto and Bill Martin on the idea of opening up the Formula Xtreme class. As an European motorcycle dealership owner and an avid racer, I find it extremely annoying that in both the AMA and Formula USA it is very difficult to run a privateer effort. Simply, unless one has a huge budget to run Ducati or Aprilia Superbikes there are no other classes in which to enter. Formula USA might argue that there is their Superbike class allowing Ducati 748s up to 800cc. Same as running Ducati 998s--prohibitively expensive to be competitive. Or the Thunderbike class allowing Ducati 900SS, Buells, Moto Guzzis etc.--hardly a premier class, with a very small purse. I think opening up the FX class is a great idea and it is high time the AMA or any of the organizations consider the other marques besides the Big Four. My rider and I have since the beginning of the year scrutinized the various rules and have failed to come up with any viable options. Unless there are changes for 2004 I will have to consider running a Japanese bike even though 99% of my business is European-bike-related. There is of course the new Triumph Daytona to consider but there is nothing like running a big European V-Twin. As the sayin' goes, "win on Sundays, sell on Mondays." Regards, Neville Hall-Reace AHRMA# 565 CCS# 80 Ft. Lauderdale, Florida I agree with Buells in Formula Xtreme, RE: Ciccotto Wants Buells In 2004 Formula Xtreme. I just finished reading his plea to have Buells added into next year's rule change. He made some great points, the bikes would compete but not domminate the class, and it would also bring more fans/spectators to AMA events. If there is a way for you at Roadracing World to contact the AMA and present this to them, because I don't think my e-mail would mean anything to them please do so. Thank you in advance. Chris E Smith CCS Novice #81 Lansing, Michigan   Jscott Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 05:42 pm:        Looks like the AMA may consider Mike Ciccotto's request. http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6431   Darthane Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 09:15 am:        "Pro Thunder-spec Buells, which are currently legal for the 2003 AMA Superstock class, would race against 1000cc inline four-cylinder bikes in the new version of the Superstock class, under the proposed 2004 class structure." Well, it would be nice to see Buells racing, but if they're going against I4 literbikes then all we'll get to see is them losing. A lot. Bryan   Blake Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:38 pm:        More AMAPR lies exposed... http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6456   Blake Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 04:22 pm:        Ducati may step up to challenge the IL4's in 2004 AMA Superbike. Gobert sets the record straight on Austin Ducati. http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6459   Blake Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:29 pm:        Ducati to petition AMAPR for rules adjustment for 2004 SB. Ducati also to petition AMAPR to let 749 into Supersport for 2004. Hey, that's a heck of an idea! Why not let them race? http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6487   Peyote Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:38 am:        anony quote "Bottom line...why build an inferior water-cooled motorcycle when you can build the world's best air-cooled? BTW, the XB IS air/oil cooled, and fan ducted, so it is more advanced than the BMW or GSXR you mentioned." While I don't disagree entirely, I don't like many buell people's defense over not producing a good liquid-cooled motor, whether it be evolved from the vrsc motor or an entirely new v-4 type derivitive. Some of you guys that are so resistant to liquid-cooled motors sound like a bunch of old Harley dorks laughing at the new v-rod saying "it'll never sell..blah.." Buell needs both motors in their product lines and it pains me that so many people don't see it. The heat stress might not be as bad with the xb9r/s being a 984cc motor, so it seems like the most logical step in evolution to add (not replace) a product line with some sort of higher output liquid-cooled motor for higher-priced sport-touring and sportbikes. This makes more since then adding a 1200cc air-cooled motor to the mix. I mean I was seriously thinking about going all out & nallinizing my bike with a stage 3 1205 kit/pipes/heads/etc. but I think reliability is definitely against me in cooling that thing. I also think Buell might have had this in mind when they built the "xb" in the first place. What if they do come out with a liquid-cooled buell in the next 2 years, my nallinized bike would be worth less then if I hadn't done anything but factory race kit it. I'm speaking hypothetical here, but if what H-D says "the VRSC has evolved from they learned racing the vr-1000 (coupled with the porsche work)," does it really seem so implausible for this motor to be blended into a light-weight version? Something to chew on. I know everyone's pretty much written it off and maybe they should look into building a V-4 or something but don't make it sound like the VRSC motor can't lose some weight. That's the weakest over-used excuse for H-D. I want to hear some new excuses why H-D doesn't produce a liquid-cooled motor for Buell. I might mention that I'm happy with my firebolt, but there's a big market buell is missing that hasn't even been tapped. They're pretty much the only "american sport bike" so why not make a line of liquid-cooled bikes right next to the air-cooled ones? okay, I'm done ranting -later   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 01:08 am:        All good things in time. Gotta learn to walk before you can sprint for a gold medal.   Kenb Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 08:09 am:        I don't get why the AMA can't set up roadracing like they did moto-x at one time.(although that has gotten all screwed up with the Yamaha 4-strokes) You used to have 3 classes for the bikes themselves; up 125cc, up to 250cc and Open class. Open class was just that if you could hang on ride it. Superbike should be the same way, heck the name is superbike right ? If you want to stuff a 100ci engine in a roadracer go for it. Anybody remember Lucifers hammer ? What size was that ? In the early 80's I rode Open class amateur MX and had a KTM 495, I could get the hole shot every week. (and then fall down in the second or third corner, haha)   Grndskpr Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 10:30 am:        All good things in time. Gotta learn to walk before you can sprint for a gold medal. 20 years is a lot of walking, must have a ton of worn out shoes ROger   Aaron Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:27 am:        I don't think it's any big mystery why they haven't done a water-cooled sportbike. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume they can't make a business case for it. The resources it would take to design and tool-up and bring it to market could likely be used for more profitable pursuits, like a new Softtail or something. HD is in business to make a profit, serving a new market segment is only useful to the extent it maximizes profitability.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 01:02 pm:        Roger, So in the midst of learning to produce bikes on a large and efficient scale and to get quality under control, you think Buell should also have designed and released a superbike? Your comment is not far off. It takes a LOT of walking to learn how to design, build, sell, and service a world class racing machine. How old are the current world record holding sprint, middle distance, and long distance runners? Aaron, You may be right, the HDI people don't see a business case for a Buell superbike at this time. I cannot imagine though, how a true American Superbike even at the Ducati or Aprilia price points would not post extremely impressive sales figures. It may be that HDI has taken a conservative approach to the Buell product development plan. Is it possible that they want to first work the bugs out of the sales/service organization? They certainly cannot think that they need to meet the price points of Japan Inc.. They don't do that with any other models. They could price a true American Superbike at $17K and sell thousands a year. And anyway, why produce a machine that won't be allowed to race competitively against the machines of Japan Inc.? It will be very interesting to see what kind of response AMAPR gives the recent rash of petitions and criticisms posted on the RRW web site (see links above). See back on topic.   Grndskpr Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 01:19 pm:        So in the midst of learning to produce bikes on a large and efficient scale and to get quality under control, you think Buell should also have designed and released a superbike? Your comment is not far off. Again you refer to Buell as a seperate company from HD, take a good look at whats happening, it belongs to HD lock stock and barrel, they already have an efficent model, they already use there motors, its no longer an excuse, sorry, if HD wanted to break into the sport bike market, they are very capable of doing it, you your self have said in the past the Eric is very capable of producing an engine, its time to put up os shut up, now i am sure your going to tell me how Buell is seperate, blah blah blah, but guess what its not, read fuel, CS, writes letters on HD paper, the feild techs are the Buell/sportster service tech, sorry this small company attitude no longer flys Is it possible that they want to first work the bugs out of the sales/service organization? This may be true, but i have not seen many steps, if fact some have been back wards, maybe they wanted to work the bugs out of the bike first then work on dealer sales support, again its all excuses, and more excuses, it just dose not fly anymore, they have a nice bike, but i hope they expand the line up, wish them all the luck in the world, but HD better stop the BS, and actually realize sport bikes are very different from crusiers later Roger   Mikej Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 01:33 pm:        "but HD better stop the BS, and actually realize sport bikes are very different from crusiers " Come to Milwaukee in late August, or ride a little farther to West Bend and the Washington County Fairground on the last Sunday or Saturday in August (schedule is still in flux), stand next to a couple of corporate moguls, and try to tell them all about SportBikes as you look around at the 10's of thousands of followers who will show up. Perhaps a way to look at it is like a Gratefull Dead concert. They have/had enough followers following them around that they didn't need to do anything but be what they were. Why change when tradition works and lives. Be comfortable in your own skin and provide products to like minded kin. It's like asking Farmer Joe to paint the barn blue this year when his family has always used oxide-red and when he still has thousands of gallons of red in the barn about to be repainted. Tradition is slow in changing sometimes. Go to an "all Harley" drag sometimes and try to tell them that a gixxer is faster. You'll just get a "we don't care, we race Harleys here" response. I think I'm in the wrong thread and on the wrong track. I think I'll go blow my nose and do something else for awhile.   Grndskpr Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 02:08 pm:        Come to Milwaukee in late August, or ride a little farther to West Bend and the Washington County Fairground on the last Sunday or Saturday in August (schedule is still in flux), stand next to a couple of corporate moguls, and try to tell them all about SportBikes as you look around at the 10's of thousands of followers who will show up. Allready did it, sorry Mike beat you to it, spoke to a VP, he specificlly told me they(HD) want to improve the brand, but said he was not fond of anything Buell had out(this was about a month or two ago) Now if the VP has to concern, where do you think the company is going to get some cash flow to improve its products, he did say that HD had to get in the sport bike market, but no understanding of the Buell crowd, and yes i was nice and polite about it, and he was cool but lost when it came to Buell I think your on to something Mike, maybe Buell should just continue on as they have, guess your right, Build a couple of bikes a year, very nice bikes for a very specific crowd, after there first buell lead them to an HD product, no need to change the problems with the bikes, no sence in upgrading the speed sensor, every thing is cool, just fix it and ride, thats cool To each his own, wait didnt you mention a rant a little while ago, something about HD being cheap, i forget later Roger   Mikej Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 02:19 pm:        'scuse me, I have to go bury my head in the sand for awhile now.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 02:47 pm:        Roger, Buell designs their own bikes. If you want Harley to design the superbike then you have a whole other set of hurdles to overcome. HD gave it a shot already and failed to succeed in creating a world class superbike, and it was never intended for mass production; it was just a race bike. If you want Buell to design one, they need to do it their way and on their own plan. Throwing money at the project is not the answer. You don't go out and start building a world beating superbike while your production is in trouble over quality issues and your sales/service organization cannot grasp the sport bike market. Expansion of a product line must progress logically and accoring to plan, one step at a time. It was just nine years ago that Buell became a true mass production manufacturer of motorcycles, and even that is a stretch. The S3 and S1 were the first real mass production Buell motorcycles that was only seven friggin years ago. I am intimately familiar with the time and experience required to design build and test world class, complex, mass produced, commercial machinery. You are WAY off base in your accusations. A good rule of thumb in evaluating project schedule and resource estimates... If the estimate came from a laymen, quadruple it at a minimum; if the estimate came from an experienced engineer, double it at a minimum. No lie. So what would be your best estimate of the resources and schedule it would take to design, build, and test a mass production world beater superbike/streetbike? How much R&D? How many engineering/design/analysis hours? How much testing? I'm not exaggerating when I say that you have no idea of the scope of such an effort. If you did, you wouldn't be making the comments that you are. Competent motorcycle engineers don't grow on trees, and as far as I know, all the Buell engineers are quite busy working on existing projects. Which ones do you pull off to work on the Superbike? Which existing project gets canned in favor of the new one? Which fire goes unaddressed so that another model completely new from the ground up can be conceived? edited by blake on June 24, 2003   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 02:50 pm:        Oh, and then if you do build it, AMAPR changes the rules for the class you were intending to contest thus rendering your brand new mass produced superbike irrelevant. Maybe you'd rather stick to building street bikes.   Mikej Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 03:11 pm:        "If the estimate came from a laymen, quadruple it at a minimum; if the estimate came from an experienced engineer, double it at a minimum. No lie. " I hate it when management tries to pin me down to how long something will take. They hate it when I don't give them a straight answer and include dozens of variables any of which could drastically affect the timing or release cycle. It's a kwazy kwazy world. Don't ask how long it will take before the project starts, you can only accurately state how long it took once the project is complete. Everything in between is variable.   Court Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:08 pm:        >>>You are WAY off base in your accusations. And the "backwards steps" are based on a very narrow time period in the history of Buell. I see it, albeit it painfully slower than I'd like, as moving forward. I hope the pace improves, but I am impatient. Harley-Davidson Vice Presidents, unless you are dealing with quite a SPECIFIC one would likely know little of Buell. It's, in all candor, NOT their department and the HD plates, with the 100th in the wings, are working about 80 hrs/wk. Not a great time to go exploring possible future opportunities. Court   Aaron Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:23 pm:        Sorry Blake, I ain't buying it. You yourself noted the tremendous resources required to design and develop and tool up and bring a new bike to market. That costs money, something they have a finite amount of and something their shareholders (including me) expect them to get maximum return from. Cruisers are hugely profitable for them, coming up with new Softail Deuce's is where the money is to be made. Now look at the sportbike market; it'ss cutthroat, there are some awfully fine bikes out there priced really well and they don't even sell very well, 1, 2, even 3 year old leftovers are not unusual. I guess I'm not at all surprised to see them declining to participate in that market.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:33 pm:        You've stepped into my world now. Heheheh... When asked to give an estimate for a new project, the best thing is to tell them you need a fairly clear definition of the product and how quickly it would need to go to market, then tell them you need some time to think about and carefully consider the task, then when you have done so, give them two answers... a best case estimate and a worst case estimate. If they ask why the big difference, then proceed to present and explain the variables, spreadsheets work great if you are not familiar with MS Project or similar project management software. The problem is that without a good estimate of the costs, the marketing guys don't know if the selling price will yield a worthy profit. Anyone who sets price based purely on cost and margin is a fool. Set the price as high as the market will bear; if the costs cannot be brought down to yield and acceptable profit margin, then scrap the project, no bid it, whatever. A good experienced technical project manager or even a marketing manager can do a pretty darn good job of covering all the bases and producing a realistic project schedule and resource plan. Engineers are almost always optimistic. And most people hate giving estimates for which they may later be held to account. But often that is a big and important part of the job. It is only fair though that the managers provide clear written definition of the scope/tasks for which they are requesting estimates.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:47 pm:        Aaron, How is the cruiser market any different from the sport bike market?   S320002 Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 05:12 pm:        I've often had to compare engineering projects to the gestation periods of biological organisms. Mgmt: Nine months? Thats too long. We'll hire eight more engineers to put on the project. That should cut it down to a month. Engr: Okay you could try that, but most projects are like pregnancy, if you have nine women pregnant for a month you still don't have a baby. You could also try inducing labor at seven or eight months but it could kill the project. What do you want to do? The other thing that rarely helps a schedule is throwing more money at the project. Good results come from good planning, which includes allowing enough time for the project to mature. Patience Grasshopper. Greg   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 05:28 pm:        And a week gained at the outset is worth a month later.   Aaron Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 05:41 pm:        "How is the cruiser market any different from the sport bike market?" Off the top of my head ... - it's WAY bigger (at least in the U.S.) - it's dominated (at least in the U.S.) by an established American company - asp's are tremendously higher - margins are tremendously higher - the market leader sells every bike they can make - the latest in engine, chassis, and suspension technology isn't nearly as important to the customer - an old long stroke air cooled pushrod motor works just fine I'm sure there are many others. Face it, it's a much more profitable place for HD to play. And they're the market leader. In sportbikes, they risk losing their shirts. The Japanese make some damn fine bikes and they sell'em awfully cheap.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 06:17 pm:        Is it not also true that... The Japanese make some damn fine cruisers and they sell 'em awfully cheap? What does a Ducati 999 sell for? Everything else you listed is true. But, if HD wants to continue their growth, they will have no choice but to enter other markets, right? Either that or venture out into other arenas entirely; I hope they avoid that, lessons learned and all. Why else would HDI bother with Buell or venture even temporarily into AMA Superbike racing? Investors will not be satisfied with the status quo for long. HD can only sell so many cruisers. Hence Buell, and hence the V-Rod. I'm starting to sense a pattern and a plan. At least I hope so. Time will tell. edited by blake on June 24, 2003   Aaron Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 06:50 pm:        Ducati hasn't exactly been the model of financial performance. I think you just made my case for me.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 08:02 pm:        If I had suggested that HDI run their business like Ducati, you might be right. But, I simply asked what the Ducati 999 sells for. Stubborn sucker.   S320002 Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 10:30 pm:        This ought to get something started. Larry Pegrem riding an Aprilla Mille can't even qualify for the Springfield Mile. The highest finishing non-HD is a Suzuki in 14th. Golly with such a big horsepower advantage you would think the Aprilla and Suzuki should be kicking butt instead of getting blown off into the weeds. Old men on old bikes can still go fast. The bottom line is: It ain't all about horsepower! Great race Rich! Greg