| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Do you want GM to go out of business? | ||
| Ironken |
You don't know what the issues are at hand. As a Union member myself, there are alot of items that go on in our negotiations that the public is unaware of. Right now WE are not negotiating with the carrier. The public thinks that the Unions are just a bunch of greedy bastards.....and to be fair, there has been some....SOME abuse of collective bargaining in the past. Right now US freight Railroads are pushing for one man crews.....Four eyes are safer than two, but, the carriers do not agree. Even though we move some of the deadliest chemicals known to man (in large quantities). That's our current strife. In current times Organized labor is getting a huge black eye from our Wal-Mart buy it cheaper society. Remember guys, buying products not made by American hands is not securing a good future for our kids, unless you want them to work at McD's or move to China for work. On a side note, many people enjoy the positive effect of Union labor and aren't members. Case in point.....Arizona, a right-to-work State. Low wages for the masses. No closed shops and the prevailing wages are lower because employers do not have to compete with the better Union wages. I have lived and worked in several regions and this that I just stated is apparent. The prices for a GM/Ford as compared to a Toyota/Nissan product is close....sometimes the foreign unit is pricier. Toyota is non-union...... | ||
| Buellshyter |
Here we go again !!!  | ||
| Ironken |
Nobody is forcing you to read this thread.... | ||
| Hootowl |
The cars are competitively priced compared to foreign. Their profit margin is just very low. That's one of the reason their stock is in the tank, but not the only one. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I only heard the UAW representative stating the aims of the negotiations. The core aim is to secure guarantees of production numbers and guarantees of all post retirement benefits. Obviously, there is no way to know if this person is full of crap or not, but I can't imagine GM being able to provide either of these demands. I will wait to see how things develop, but I can't imagine that this will be a good thing for either negotiating party. | ||
| Ducxl |
The only one that jabs me in the side is free healthcare for life for retirees. Otherwise i'd be firmly on the side of IronKen above. | ||
| Ironken |
Agreed Ducxl......The free healthcare for life thing is a little over the top and I would hope that would not be the item that would hang negotiations. Hell, I have to pay for a portion of my healthcare and I am not retired. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Nobody is forcing you to read this thread.... These threads inevitably lead to union bashing. Proceed at your own peril. | ||
| Ironken |
sorry 'shyter.....didn't know where you were coming from. Union bashing is a popular and uneducated sport these days....warning noted.....Kenny | ||
| Alchemy |
As to healthcare, Medicare kicks in at 65. My employer does offer to pick up uncovered costs as secondary coverage at that point. I have to pay premiums and have deductables etc but I can get coverage similar to regular full time employees.... as I understand it. So at 65 the main burden fall on Medicare in most cases. If you have paid into such a system for decades then it is nice to have that trust honored. It is getting pretty rare to have companies help with healthcare in retirement. | ||
| Cixyx_pilot |
As a Canadian GM worker, I hope they settle quickly. There are also some job security issues they are trying to address. | ||
| Coal400 |
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=14653921 There have been times where I wished I belonged to a union. "Corporate America" is ruthlessly greedy at the top. So much so that they don't mind sacrificing the long term for their short term, quick fixes. The execs soak up what they can and then float on with their golden parachutes... Caution, liberals abound: | ||
| M2nc |
Now who was the brain surgeon at UAW that thought GM after losing its shirt last year needs this. UAW needs to wake up and quit pissing in their food bowl. It cost GM $1200 more per car than Toyota as it is because of their benefit package and changes have to be made. If UAW really cares about preserving the US Auto Industry for future generations they need to work with GM on reducing benefit cost and go after the government to curtail medical expenses for all Americans. This is where the problem truly lies. | ||
| Oldbiker |
Having been indirectly involved in union negotiations for 48 yrs. .....i've learned you have a screwee....screwor situation on both sides,until negotiations are over.....if there was never a need for a union they would'nt exist. Steve | ||
| Coal400 |
This guy has done great things for the "other 2", maybe he could straighten out GM?  Actually, I'd rather he take over Chrysler again. Dr."Z" seems to be having a hard time. | ||
| Davegess |
I am, as a long time union guy although now in a management, a am very disappointed by the unions in this whole health care-pensions mess. And not just the Autoworkers it seems to me most unions. Unions were in the beginning agents for change to make live better for workers. Now they have become defenders of the status quo which will ultimately result in serious harm to workers. The unions need to be at the forefront of trying to make their companies more efficient and profitable. They also need to be at the forefront of figuring out how to pay for quality health care and pensions in a cost effective manner. Just demanding that the company do it will not work today, you need to present solutions. If the UAW had a plan that involved making GM more profitable and more competitive and included great pay and benefits for the members it would be pretty hard for GM to say no. They need to embrace change and help the US economy move forward or their workers will all be flipping burgers. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
I don't know much at all about unions or what they are fighting for this time (other than the obvious). What I do know is that now might not be the best time for this argument and strike. Detroit-based GM said Thursday that it made $62 million in the first quarter this year, compared to $602 million a year earlier. | ||
| Coal400 |
I think the union worker's argument here is why do "we" get to pay for management mistakes. Where do you draw the line? I think that the workers are just trying to protect what they have, and force something else to be the path of least resistance. | ||
| Coal400 |
They need to embrace change and help the US economy move forward or their workers will all be flipping burgers. Ah, I think the displaced workers will need to find something else. Right now all of the "illegals" are doing the burger flipping.  The UAW will have to find some sort of "service" job if they can't embrace the world economy. | ||
| Ebear |
Spot on DaveGess.......!!  | ||
| Xbduck |
OK, to address the first issue stated by Ironken, one man crews for rail. I must guess that you are referring to one man unloading the tankers. I hope the UAW gets this one, I used to work for Invista (a formerly Dupont site), claims of streamlining production moved the site to one man crews. Just to let you know one of our 'one man crews' sucked a tanker completely empty. Needless to say it couldn't carry the same volume leaving as it did when it arrived. So, yes, this could be a very serious issue with deadly chemicals. Oh this wasn't the worst thing to happen I'm just not certain how much I can say being an ex-employee. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I don't have a problem with the union attempting to secure benefits for it's workers. That is what unions are supposed to do. What I do have a problem with is the inflexibility in the face of economic hardship. GM is fighting for it's very survival. It's like your wife insisting that you make good on your promise to buy her a new convertible, fur coat, and diamond ring after you find out that you may have to file for bankruptcy. It isn't that you don't want to buy her those things. It's just that you'd like a little consideration as to the timing. Like a marriage, it isn't us or them. It's just us. WHEN GM goes down both "management" and union will go down together. GM didn't sell off GMAC because they hated to finance cars and mortgages. That thing was a cash cow. They sold it because they needed money quickly. Since labor lacks the ability to make any strategic decisions, all mistakes are management. The whole company pays for those mistakes. Name a company which doesn't make them. The whole"labor pays for management's mistakes" is a farce and an "us vs them" thought pattern. The biggest mistake I can see was giving away the farm when times were good. | ||
| Court |
I've been a life-long union member, still carry an I.B.E.W. card and spent years studying Labor Law and Legislation. My Grandfather was an early orgnaizer in the I.B.E.W. (had the letters from the company cutting in pay in half when he got caught holding meetings at midnight) and my Dad was a business agent before starting his own business. The unions. . . in my mind. . . shifted course when they left "we do better work than anyone and our training makes us the best qualified" to "you HAVE to use us or else". Folks, myself included, threaten poorly and temporaily at best. Sine I've been in NYC (agruably the most organizable city in the USA as a result of population density and being an island (the Teamsters can easily watch each bridge)) the city has gone from 90%+ union on big jobs to around 50%. I, on a personal level, still laugh when I look at my L.U. #53 card when I was cleared out to work on the 161kV KCP&L tranmission line to the Ford F-Series Truck Plant in Claycomo, MO for the staggering sum of #3.11 an hour. We were showing up at the old Northeast Power Plant. . . working tons of overtime and I was rolling in dough . . .buying gasoline for $0.0199 a gallon. Last year I saw one of our employees, a General Foreman, take home $10,000+ in a single week at the Grasslands Substation in Valhalla, NY. Times are changing . . . | ||
| Wile_ecoyote |
Times are changing indeed. I work a union job and am grateful for it. However, I understand where its going. Do your job well or someone else will do it cheaper. Most guys I know have become lazy and lax thinking the company owes them for 25-30 years of service. Well they do, but not to the extent some take advantage of. Because of the increase in cheap labor and the high cost of healthcare we are indeed changing. Getting off soapbox now, continue. | ||
| Ryker77 |
"UAW needs to wake up and quit pissing in their food bowl" Most mill workers would love to have 1/2 of what the UAW gets. I work for /contract with the federal government and have NO benifits NONE. No paid holidays, NO vacation, NO sickdays, NO yearly raise. Nothing...... And these people who build •••••• gas guzzlers want all sorts of huge pay and benifits... "UAW needs to wake up and quit pissing in their food bowl" | ||
| Blake |
Brenda Buckner of Fox News explained the issue with the UAW and GM quite succinctly this morning. She explained that back in the '80s GM agreed to UAW demands for retiree benefits, pensions and health care, that now cause GMs costs to greatly exceed those of non-union Japan Inc plants in America that came online in the '90s and avoided such onerous employee retirement obligations. The greedy short sighted UAW doomed America's automobile industry and are still trying to bring it down. How stupid is that? | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Wow. I agree with about all of the recent posts here. Especially this one: GM is fighting for it's very survival. It's like your wife insisting that you make good on your promise to buy her a new convertible, fur coat, and diamond ring after you find out that you may have to file for bankruptcy. | ||
| P_squared |
I have my CWA local card still. I'm now a salaried (Management) employee that has to deal with RIFs (Reduction In Force- aka Layoffs) every 3 months. The unions are CRAZY for publicly saying they're tryin to take care of their memebers. They are full of SHIT! They're trying to make sure they get PAID! In this day's world, you have to make sure the COMPANY is healthy BEFORE you DEMAND anything at a bargaining table. To do otherwise means you only care about YOUR (union) shorterm goals, and NOT the longterm health & wellbeing of your members. I HATE Unions in the US in case you couldn't tell. They were a once necessary "evil"/balance to the equation, but now they are just EVIL. | ||
| M2nc |
Look - I work in the same field as UAW workers but for a southern Union-Free shop. Laws here make it hard for a Union shop to take hold. In our business we compete with Toyota as well. Even though Toyota is the largest overall company in the market, we have the lion's share of the business. We are the premier brand that can charge more because of our reputation for a quality product and second to none customer service. Toyota just about copies everything we do, but they have to share a 62% market share with all other brands. Our company up to 2001 paid for all our benefits and had an attractive pension plan. Since then medical expensive have sky-rocketed to such a point that we now pay $45 a week for the premium family package (individual is still fully paid by the company). Even with cuts in coverage and a shared premium now, the company puts in twice what it did in 2001 to break even. That is outrageous and that is the problem GM and other Union shops like Harley are having. Cost have more than doubles in less than ten years and the companies can no longer afford the benefits of the past and be competitive. This is something the government has to fix. Why is it that a Canadian citizen can by an American medicine for much less than an American citizen. Simple, the Canadian government is protecting its citizens where the American government is not. For the UAW to turn a blind eye to the changing environment is irresponsible. Typical Union behavior that has caused it to fall out of favor with the majority of Americans. |
