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Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:18 pm: | 
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Gentlemen it goes back to the same thing over and over...you cannot defeat a guerilla army on their territory...never have been able to and never will because the Art of war says so.."The invader must win..the defender must only survive" All they have to do is live and breed, the entire region will fill the ranks to fight us. This war will never end IMHO because it will always be impossible to identify and kill JUST the enemy. We are unwilling to do the alternative and that is kill EVERYTHING there, so what ultimately is the point? Who are we fighting? China as Pat says? Terrorism as W says? Extremists? Ourselves? Our oil addiction? What and who are we really fighting? Rich vs Poor? I don't see many rich folks dying...just an observation. |
Damnut
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
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bring back the draft and this stupid war would be over by tomorrow. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 06:18 pm: |
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Ron Jeremy! Thank you. He looks like Ron after a bad film. ( the time of capture photo pimped by the press )
The draft will NOT solve the problem. The volunteer system produces a far better armed service than the draft. I remember the Vietnam draft era.
Dale has a point. Until the powers that be ( Not just this admin, but it's political antagonists, and uhmmmmm, let's see..... Europe? ) are willing to admit that the religious fanatisism coming out of Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. IS the issue, there is no answer.
That "Art Of War" bit only applies when the irregular forces have a sanctuary, and Syria & Iran certainly qualify. The former Generals of the Iraqi army, despite their "grand theft nation" as they fled before the allied forces, do not have near enough $ to pay for the ongoing conflict. That money comes from Arabia & Iran, I'll bet you a race ignition module. ( 98 Cyclone. )
End the sanctuary, follow through on the promise that we will not let nations support terrorism as a means of war, and do NOT screw the 50 million people we freed from tyranny, and gave the opportunity to have a freely elected govt. ( even though they will probably pick self serving a-holes, just like every other democratic nation has. It still beats dictatorship all hollow. ) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 09:20 am: |
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While today's volunteer force IS a much better combat force than we had during our incursion into SEAsia, the volunteer nature is responsible for only a portion of that improvement, i think (a large portion, granted)
the technological gap between our forces and the present enemy is wider, I believe, but there's another factor
a major portion of our forces in WW2 were draftees, and I've read nothing to indicate that this single data point had a negative impact on thier combat efficiency
regardless of where one comes down on the topic of our military action in the Middle East, most everyone seems to be supporting our troops
by post-Tet, in the Nam, the majority of folks in the USA where firmly against the war -- this included the troops in the field, of course -- fighting effectively in support of what you believe to be a lost cause, reading the same lost cause routine in the papers from home, and being blamed for it, all this is a receipe for a failed military incursion
break break
you CAN beat an irregular force on it's own ground, though examplkes are few and far between -- neither does it have to be a totally scorched earth policy -- research the Huks in the SW Pacific -- the Brits handed them their butts -- of course, it took a numerical superiority of over 10:1 to do the job . . . . .
gotta love history |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 10:47 am: |
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The draftees of WWII for the most part were good Americans that had healthy bodies and good morals. Today's youth would hardly even meet the physical/health standards. A draft could never work in todays climate. Too many easy ways to avoid it.
-gay
-fat
-lazy
-drugs both legal and illegal
-various medical conditions
-tattoos or peircings in certain places |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 11:39 am: |
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Ok John, You have some points there and good ones, but the facts remain that our Army is not trained to deal with a Guerilla war in an area where the enemy is indistiguishable from the friendly. 10:1 ratio is all fine and dandy if you can commit that kind of force and money to an operation, ultimately we have the problem of are we an occupier or a liberator? Liberator's leave...occupier's don't leave, if we are to establish some sort of autonomous government there where is our exit strategy and who pays back your's and my tax dollar expenditure as well as the interest on the debt that is floated to cover current operations? I believe we can grow our economy at sustainable rates, but not enough to cover entitlement, welfare, foreign incursion, economic aid to many states, infrastructure for our own country AND then cover all the interest on all the debt owned by Saudi Arabia and China and Japan...do the math brother..so ultimately can they do to us what we taught the Mujahadeen to do in Afghanistan? That was to bleed the USSR financially as well as physically...constant low cost attacks on a larger force to provoke a response on those that are trying to cooperate, this leads to increased resentment and defiant revolt akin to a quiet civil war, where the combatants are simply everyday people that strike on opportunity instead of plan, constant losses in manpower and equipment that are not on a large scale at once, but instead a steady bleed of losses...5 here, 10 there...2 on sunday...and economically force the occupier to give up it's foothold...I mean really we cannot sustain our "war" around the globe on our own, especially as we fund the major contributor..whether people like it or not if you believe the 9/11 story... 15 of 19 were not from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Iran...they were from Saudi Arabia..as well as the man blamed for the planning. So I ask again...who is the enemy and where is the fight? Remember there is more than money and power at work here...I believe the Arab world is afraid of the exportation of our culture...and IMHO would rather have 10 Saddam Hussein's in power then their daughters wearing make up and wearing mini skirts listening to Britney Spears...
(Message edited by liquorwhere on March 23, 2007) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
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LW -- I bow to your clearly greater expertise regarding Ms Spears (joking, btw) --
you are correct in saying that our standard troopers are, in fact, not well trained in fighting something other than a standard conflict (i.e., uniformed force representing a nation state against another like it) . . . it CAN be done, as some parts of the SEAsian adventure (and others) proves, but it takes some time, and, to my knowledge, it hasn't been done (outside of a couple of elite forces) --
I was simply responding to your comment that "you cannot defeat a guerilla army on their territory...never have been able to and never will because the Art of war says so . . . . "
Sun was right, of course, that the guerrilla force simply needs to not loose (see also the American REvolutionary War, for another example of this) . . . but you CAN do it --
as for your points wrt liberators vs occupiers, GNP et al -- no argument
this is exactly why a number of people have been hoping, thus far in vain, that our gubmint and others would sit down and talk about the legal definition of war. we are clearly not fighting another nation state here, but, sadly, that's what the vast majority of our armed forces are trained, equipped, and prepared to do (and they do it very very well). |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 12:21 pm: |
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I defy any country to line up in a conventional style of warfare against our troops and have a prayer, I was a member of the Green machine (US Army) for 8 years and hold it in high regard, so high in fact that I hate to see those resources and expertise squandered...thus my current viewpoints on our situations overseas and at home. Unfortunately you and I and others can snipe the situation or hype the situation all we want and it changes nothing. Really it changes nothing. We cannot get the $hit back in the horse and it is also too late to avoid stepping in it, the true dilemma is what do we do now? And who has the plan to lead us...where? The clear enemy and an at least somewhat clear result on the horizon would be nice but it is just not there...... |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 12:30 pm: |
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LW -- amen, sir, amen
won't change until the electorate rises up and changes it -- for that to happen, there will have to be a clear consensus on what change to champion, and, sadly, to date, there are too many differeing opinions for that to happen
our military has some of our best citizens in it -- we need em here more than we need em there |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 07:34 am: |
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Let me say I respect you guys for your service. Watching Viet Nam vets marching in local parades always brings an emotion of sadness to me. The impossible task they were given is the same as the one in Iraq today. I see pictures of our troops walking down the streets of Bagdhad with pounds of gear around their waists, on their backs and even on their helmets and it makes me think of the British "Redcoats" during the Revolution.
But this war shouldn't be about winning or losing. The discussion should center on why it was ever started. Was it a just war? That question has been answered and now is the time to make the proper response. It's best not to continue a mistake and in the last election the congress has been given a mandate to end it. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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"15 of 19 were not from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Iran...they were from Saudi Arabia..as well as the man blamed for the planning. So I ask again...who is the enemy and where is the fight?"
I've been asking that question for 3 years now. None of the prowar people want to answer it. I just love that stupid reply "we must fight them over there so we don't fight them on our land". I ask WHO IS THEM AND WHERE IS THERE?
This war is about defense contractors and/or oil companies needed a "war". Somehow a few people have been bought and paid for. They lied and mislead America into war. Daddy Bush and Baby Bush, the other shrubs in the Bushhouse, and a few media heads are to blame. |
Frankfast
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 11:13 am: |
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You're right.
This war is providing a windfall for select contractors. They build it and then it's destroyed. So they build it again. Over and over again. All with US tax dollars. How much have they contributed to Bush and his gang? It's criminal. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 12:04 pm: |
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Don;t neglect the millions of fraud,waste and abuse with the contractors. Or the millions of dollars that commanders in the field recieve to handle issues (paying for shot cars or accidental killings etc etc) of which that money is unaccounted for.
Read FDR farwell speech for which he warned the American people about becoming a military nation and the effect defense contractor had. |
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