| Author | Message | ||
     Outrider |
the union vote will be interesting to watch. Interesting, but the results will most likely be just like the last time Harley held up their employees in Milwaukee a couple of years ago. The employees will accept the cuts just to keep their jobs as there aren't enough manufacturing jobs in Wisconsin to absorb the loss. Catch 22, eh? | ||
| Ducxl |
The thread title is wrong.It's blue collar that is experiencing financial ruin.We're being pinched by other countries which have the burden of healthcare NOT in the hands of corporations,which makes them more competetive.And corporate greed here in USA dictates an ever increasing profit margin on the backs of labor.Disproportionate distribution of wealth.Now God can chime in with his facts and figures and discredit my opinion.Bring it on........ | ||
| Ducxl |
The old machine shop i just left has recently layed off 8 people.They also went to a 32 hour week,for one week.They then stated that output must INCREASE! They make about $110000/day in sales to the automotive market.Yeah,i'm a disenchanted machinist | ||
| Outrider |
Gee...Like I never heard that before. Will be interesting to hear what the two self-serving political parties will have to say (read: LIE) about that before the next Presidential election. Seems the politicians prefer mud slinging over addressing the issues with clarity and presenting their plans to correct the issues facing America. | ||
| Outrider |
Addendum... I am not being negative concerning either Harley or Buell with my last two posts. They are caught up in the economic trends just like all the other corporations and are fighting for survival on both a domestic and international level. In my opinion, it is our Government that is to blame for allowing this to happen. The aren't enforcing their own laws concerning tariffs and anti-trust issues. | ||
| Ducxl |
I'm just sick and tired of "bean counters" coming down all red faced and ungentlemanly w/o machining knowledge demanding more parts with quicker set-up times and shorter time cycles.All doom&gloomy stating their urgency.And i'm petrified of loosing the roof over my head. | ||
| Outrider |
So you think my peers in my industry and I liked being called "The Terminator" by our friends and fellow employees? We had no choice in the matter if the company was to survive. It really hurt as we didn't think of ourselves as using people. We were supporting families. Needless to say, it didn't stop there and ultimately we were all replaced and the corporations sold or went out of business. | ||
| Jackbequick |
"..since I bought mine back in 1998. I have wanted a world beating S1 that could break 150MPH, and I wanted Buell to enter the world stage in racing." Did you see something in that S1 that lead you to believe that your expectations were attainable? You might have chosen the wrong bike. Jack | ||
| Blake |
Now God can chime in with his facts and figures and discredit my opinion." Do you have any facts to support your opinion? That might help. How anyone expects the federal government to prop up non-competitive businesses is beyond me. Do you want a temporary tariff like H-D enjoyed for a few years, what? Either you can compete on the world market or you cannot. Expecting some kind of government subsidy is ridiculous. Life ain't easy and no one promised us all a free ride, did they? Maybe you imagine the cave man had an easy life, after all he had no government with which to contend. He just had to survive. But now so many folks somehow feel entitled to an easy life. I don't get it. I'll tell you this, if you cannot find a way to improve productivity, someone else will. | ||
| Ducxl |
"I'll tell you this, if you cannot find a way to improve productivity, someone else will." Yeah,by eliminating the health,vacation,wage benefits we've enjoyed up until this so called global economy.The global economy to me is taking unfair advantage of poor people in developing countries who have no benefits and little wages.Take Mexico for example,would YOU like to work for $3/day? Why should they? Why should they be the suckers of the world? I currently work my butt off and am still badgered to work harder,and it is KILLING ME! Do we really advocate these conditions in the name of productivity? That is inhumane. | ||
| Rocketman |
Did you see something in that S1 that lead you to believe that your expectations were attainable? Yes I did Jack. I thought in time Buell would have made a more intense S1W rather than 'soften' it. I also thought listening to the yarns over the years that Buell would be on the world championship trail by now. You know, given EB's unstoppable passion for road racing and that Forbes 100 company they can tap into. Rocket | ||
| Buellgirlie |
Either you can compete on the world market or you cannot. Expecting some kind of government subsidy is ridiculous. Life ain't easy and no one promised us all a free ride, did they? they didnt, but many seem to expect it. a sure recipe that leads to complacency, arrogance, and having the world pass by with others that are open tochange, innovation, and calculated risk. i'm a BIG believer in free markets and individual self-determination. and succeess OR failure based on your merits. D | ||
| Old_man |
How do you compete with someone in China making 30 cents an hour. | ||
| Ducxl |
Pay cuts+loss of benefits http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=518727 | ||
| Blake |
Old, You do so with higher quality, better service, quicker delivery, and more expertise, more efficiency. Or, you don't and find a job where you can. What is the alternative? There is none that I can see. | ||
| Xbduck |
Just so you know... on an even playing field a free market will always weed out the weak. However China is not playing on an even field. The Chinese Gov't has controlled the value of their currency to maintain favorable market share. Had they allowed their currency to move with market forces the price of their goods would now be considerably higher. Personally I believe that this has been the plan of China for a long time. Right now a great deal of our national debt is financed by Asian banks, mostly Chinese. If we continue to purchase so many goods from them and they use the money to purchase publicly held companies, well it's a lot like the game Monopoly. Sorry I've hijacked the thread and I'm sure its going to get political now and I didn't mean for it to get that way. I really don't like talking politics with friends, my ideas and views are definitely not yours. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
competing on cost is a losers game. there will always be someone aroud that can sell for 5 bux less than u - no matter how low u go. customers who shop based on price are not long term customers - they go where the price is lowest.... D | ||
| Diablobrian |
Hmmmm my old mantra "you can't always find the best deal by looking at just the price tag" seems to fit here. You can usually choose two of the following three attributes: quick, cheap, and superior quality. Which two do you choose? Which is the most important to you? Will it pay off in the long run? Many times it's "pay me now, or pay me later" If you don't buy quality from the start it will cost more on the back end raising the total out of pocket. So quality is my number one. I try to go as cheap as I can with the highest quality. I know others have different priorities, but it hurts them in the long run some times. Believe me it is hard to live by those values when you are a disabled, student, father of three. I know what it is to be broke so that's an argument that doesn' hold water. | ||
| Blake |
Howard (XBDuck), I tend to agree with you. However, might there also be a potential downside for China in the very real scenario you outline? I think so. | ||
| Rocketman |
How many Buell parts are made in China. You want to argue cost \ quality you need to be careful. China doesn't appear any less able to give quality. Again you gets what you pay for. Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
good to see a local-ish company do well -- after three years on the local school board, I'll bet cash dollars american that the union/company conversation will be interesting in the extreme -- Buell decided to make bikes that they could sell a bunch of -- good decision -- they also decided to go racing in a manner they could afford -- also a good decsion -- it'sw always easy to spend someone else's money -- mondy morning quarterbacking is easy, and so often wrong | ||
| Davegess |
I read in the NY times this week that China has rewritten theri labor laws to allow real unions to organize adn operate. that will be interesting. | ||
| Jayvee |
Global economy and level playing field means sooner or later we should enjoy the same standard of living they (Chinese)now have. They are moving to the same rich/poor divide we have, but we started with a much bigger, now diminishing, middle class. | ||
| Outrider |
Jayvee...Excellent point. The playing field will eventually level out but a few generations in the US will be in dire straits until it does. Fortunately, today's students are being trained for the new opportunities. Unfortunately, there are many industries and careers that have been eliminated starting in the early 1970's and the "Gen X'ers" that thought they were properly prepared were subject to a rude awakening. Their discovery was that employment commensurate to their education levels wasn't as plentiful as it had been for previous generations and were forced into becoming entrepreneurs in the retail and service sector. One of the most disappointing things about the current job market in the US is that folks in certain fields cannot find comparable employment and are forced to take menial jobs and lower their standard of living. Those that have careers that have survived or even capitalized on the current situation are our Fellow American's that could care less about our plight as it doesn't effect them, at least for the moment. I was fortunate in that I was successful enough to both live the good life and afford to invest heavily. The result was when it was my turn to be turned out to pasture, I was prepared for early retirement and have since started a family business that is in the service sector and focuses on an ever growing market. Again, things will level out eventually. However, I pray that the remaining US Industries and Corporations, Harley included, survive this interim period. As Court so nicely put it a few months ago, General Electric and Westinghouse didn't fare so well against the Asian Invasion. Just remember, Home Depot, Walmart and their few remaining peers aren't referred to as "Chinese Outlet Stores" for nothing and that was my industry. The Asian business ethic is quite cut throat and they feel no remorse in selling your technology or product, patented or not, direct to your competitors and even your customers. That's greed and misplaced trust for you and it has been the downfall of many US Corporations and their respective industries. The ironic part about that is the American Consumer is still getting gouged as the prices have not dropped to make up for all the jobs. I am just glad I planned ahead financially. Let that be a lesson to all of you that may be over leveraged financially and praying that your job, much less your chosen career will last you through retirement. | ||
| Buellgirlie |
the invisible hand of adam smith at work - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith yes, you're right, outrider, it will be brutal for some caught in the churn - but nature itself is indeed brutal.....and that is good for long-term viability. we all lose, long term, from artificial constraints or supports. D | ||
| Court |
No society on earth has ever had it better than we do in America. | ||
| Brucelee |
No society on earth has ever had it better than we do in America. So true. Imagine, having to work hard to maintain such a life! | ||
| Bigdaddy |
The average age of the world's great civilizations is 200 years. Where are we, as a nation, and are we on borrowed time? I'd say we're in the 'Apathy to Dependence' stage at present. We're quickly moving to the 'Dependence to Bondage' stage. Just my view of the society I live in and one excellent subject to hash out,,,,if you can keep it civil  G2 | ||
| Outrider |
Buellgirlie...Thanks for the good read. My commentary was based strictly on observations and expensive lessons learned during a short 30 year career during which we were were outsourcing to Japan, Korea, Taiwan and finally China. Am still an optimist concerning the future. I have to be as I make my living off the market and our business. However, I just don't care for the idea of the US lowering its standards to meet those of other Countries. It takes a lot of money to run the US and we have been exposed to considerable financially irresponsible actions by both political parties over the years. Concerning Import/Export Tariffs I would be happy if the world adopted the same requirements and lead times that China has in force. Learned that when I headed up the US sales/marketing division for a Chinese Manufacturer Headquartered in Hong Kong with a factory in the New Territory and divisions in the US and UK. That's when I had to contract a British Firm in Hong Kong to smuggle raw materials into our own factory in the New Territory. Turned out it was a common practice there. I tend to like the cliche "It's a Recession when your neighbor is unemployed, but a Depression when you are." Well, the same goes for under employed/paid as well. Is pretty hard to sit back and take all the cuts in compensation plans and watch your standard of living erode while your cost of living increases yearly. Perhaps that is the message that the rank and file just sent to HD. Bottom line is, it is up to You and Your Generation to see that America remains strong, secure and a desirable place to live. Me, I am just an old dinosaur relating experiences that were real before, during and after my career days. | ||
| Outrider |
On the humorous side...Does anyone remember the Steel Industry in America? |
