| Author | Message | ||
     Kdan |
I'm all for abortion. I think the church's should be taxed to fund them. I think the abortion pill should be available in penny gumball dispensers. I believe that an unwanted pregnancy, ie; any unwanted child, before it is a viable entity needs to be terminated as early as possible. I think all people should be restricted to a finite number of children. My vote is one child per female. I think old people should be allowed to die when they are ready. I think their should be a season on stupid. Your Mileage May Vary dependent on what mythical religion was forced upon you. I love this thread. I go away for a week and come back and it's a whole new same different debate!! | ||
| Captpete |
How about this? If a persons IQ is less than 70 they get sterilized before old enough to breed? Cool! Can we do the same for ugly? | ||
| Aesquire |
As I see it, 3 things need to be done about the illegal immigration problem. If illegal immigrant is not a phrase that makes you happy, try criminal trespasser ( CT ). 1. Make it harder to get into this country & punish with imprisonment the ceo's of companies that exploit the CT's. ( and anyone else in this near slavery field, coyotes, "sub contractors", politicians with CT nannies, etc. ) 2. Make it easier to get into this country in a legal & temporary manner. Guest worker programs & a mass change in the laws that were originally written for racist ends. ( "we'll take the ch&**'s and the n&^*%'s, but NOT THE IRISH!" ) ( if I recall the chinese were the intended group to be restricted ) 3. Decide, then DO something about the 8-20 million folk that are now CT's. Amnesty made the problem worse, try something else. If we decide to kick out all the CT's & let them start fresh, ok, but do it. It must be harder to get in & get a job illegally than legally or the problem will not be solved. Racism is one cause of the problem. Racist laws now on the books must be changed. Don't let the ACLU have a iota of say in this. We will regret it. Kdan, "I think all people should be restricted to a finite number of children. My vote is one child per female." Bad idea, that is why China has a massive surplus of males reaching Army age with no chance of getting a girl in China & a culture than frowns, with guns, on homosexuality. What do you think that is leading to? Seriously. "I think their should be a season on stupid" Sign me up for a tag. | ||
| Grndskpr |
Cool! Can we do the same for ugly? Nope, cause i now 2 ugly people that produced a beutifull baby, i suspect its a recesive trait R | ||
| Blake |
Love is so much better than the intolerant sword of "justice". Agreed! What happens if we apply that exact view in regards to the baby. Meaning, put the emphasis on the most defenseless innocent party in the equation. Hmmm... Thought provoking? | ||
| Rocketman |
Cool! Can we do the same for ugly? But doesn't natural selection do for that already?  Rocket | ||
| Hans |
I am for taking away the option to terminate an unborn child And that is exactly what makes me furious, (and apparently others so they bail out the debate to prevent them becoming uncivil.) You made clear that you want to take away the option for an abortion, no matter what circomstances, no matter what consequences, no matter what stage in the pregnancy: From the conception. Furious, because you keep talking about "unborn child" giving it an emotional load, also to an early abortion. It is not a child. What happens if we apply that exact view in regards to the baby. Meaning, put the emphasis on the most defenseless innocent party in the equation. We are not talking about an unborn child or baby. Depends from what side you look at the primary cell conglomeration: It is an invasive life form, aggressive growing into the tissues of the mother, sucking her blood and life juices, without asking permission and only removable with rude steel scrapers. For innocence you need a will and the possibility for guilt. Abortion is an ugly thing, but I am very glad that the possibility is open for women, while it can prevent lots and lots of deep misery and even death. Hans | ||
| Greenlantern |
So one of my plumbers is tracing out the source of a leak in a upper Manhattan building that has a "clinic' as a tenant on ground floor.the plumber calls me from clinic office phone to explain that he believes to have narrowed down source of leak but needs to open sheetrock ceiling to correct problem which can only be done with authorization from Office manager. I ask plumber to put manager on phone so I may explain situation and request permission for work to proceed, Plumber says he will get manager and puts me on hold..... Mexican Music on the hold line.... which makes me think of this thread and start laughing like a Idiot just about the time the Manager picks up the phone.Well I thought it was funny any way! ( I really need to go back out with my tools in the worst way, this Manager stuff sucks!). On a totally different note, I just got news that I will take possession of my 2007 12Ss before the end of the month.No torture like waiting for a new bike while you are currently without bike, but now there is that light at the end of the tunnel! | ||
| CJXB |
Nope, cause i now 2 ugly people that produced a beutifull baby, i suspect its a recesive trait Who are you talking about ?? | ||
| Brucelee |
I am for taking away the option to terminate an unborn child And that is exactly what makes me furious, (and apparently others so they bail out the debate to prevent them becoming uncivil.) Well, Hans you can speak for yourself and let others speak for themselves. My stance may make you furious but then, yours does not make me furious. Why, because unless folks can discuss difficult issues without anger, there is no movement on any tough issue. You made clear that you want to take away the option for an abortion, no matter what circomstances, no matter what consequences, no matter what stage in the pregnancy: From the conception. Yes, that is what I would like to do. I doubt that this is doable and in the real world, exceptions would be made for the more dire circumstances that you mention. I can live with that. However, it is also true that the VAST number of abortions being performed today have nothing to do with rape, incest or violence. The vast majority are retroactive birth control and you and I know this. Therefore, it is more honest to acknowledge that this is the issue we are really talking about. I don't support abortion as birth control for the lazy or the sorry. Furious, because you keep talking about "unborn child" giving it an emotional load, also to an early abortion. It is not a child. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. It doesn't make me furious that you have it, it simply means that you are wrong in the eyes of many millions of folks in the US. }What happens if we apply that exact view in regards to the baby. Meaning, put the emphasis on the most defenseless innocent party in the equation. We are not talking about an unborn child or baby. Again, millions would disagree with you! Depends from what side you look at the primary cell conglomeration: It is an invasive life form, aggressive growing into the tissues of the mother, sucking her blood and life juices, without asking permission and only removable with rude steel scrapers. For innocence you need a will and the possibility for guilt. Huh? Abortion is an ugly thing, but I am very glad that the possibility is open for women, while it can prevent lots and lots of deep misery and even death. Hans Keep in mind in the vast majority of cases, women are pregnant through consenual sex and are well aware of what birth control measures are available. They (the couple) do not take the correct measures and boom, an inconvenient truth arises. The answer, for many is an abortion, and away it goes. Others proceed down a second path. I favor the second path. (Message edited by brucelee on October 05, 2006) | ||
| Grndskpr |
Richard i have a question for you: Considering your stance, at least the stance that has been posted If a monther was going to die, because she carried an unborn child to full or even patial term How do YOU adress the death of the mother?? Is one life worth another, does bringing into the world a motherless child condone the death of the mother Be honest, i felt Blakes answer to my previous question was only a partial truth, and most that have been hear a bit i suspect would agree R | ||
| Brucelee |
Richard i have a question for you: Considering your stance, at least the stance that has been posted If a monther was going to die, because she carried an unborn child to full or even patial term How do YOU adress the death of the mother?? Is one life worth another, does bringing into the world a motherless child condone the death of the mother Be honest, i felt Blakes answer to my previous question was only a partial truth, and most that have been hear a bit i suspect would agree R This is a reasonable question and I would give you a reasonable answer. If it clearly was an issue that if a mother did not have an abortion, she would die, then I would support the notion that an abortion would be available for her. This a tough moral issue but I would support the notion that IF one had to choose, the mother has the right to save her own life. Having said that, the conflict over legalized abortion is often inflamed by working this type of argument into the discussion, thereby avoiding the real issue IMO, that is, abortion as a means of birth control. The fact is that the number of women who need to have an abortion to save their own life is incredibly small and the number of folks who are pro-life who would fight this option is also incredibly small. So, I see this issue as a red herring of sorts. If we were sitting down to do a political deal on abortion, this issue would be resolved in about 3 minutes, at least from my side of the table. | ||
| Captpete |
produced a beutifull baby Get real! They all arrive butt ugly. That's why you need to hold off on the sterilization until they're 18. But doesn't natural selection do for that already? That was the big plan, but it ain’t working out so hot on humanoids. I think beer’s the culprit. | ||
| Grndskpr |
Get real! They all arrive butt ugly Not with a c section, there pretty clean, and they have nice round heads I think beer’s the culprit. Dont forget plastic surgery, i have seen some really really ugly people look great after about 100k This is a reasonable question and I would give you a reasonable answer. Thank you for that, that was a fair and honest answer Question #2 If the child in its mothers belly was going to be still born or had a genetic issue which would only alow it life for a very short term(spin or other vital parts born outside the body) would you require the mother to carry to full term knowing that in the end the child would be born dead or only live for the shortest of time, with the parents looking on and never being able to hold the child until its death.A child that could never breath and its entire time alive per se, was on machines(ie if there was no life support the child would have died with in seconds, machines sometimes only prolong the pain) Real honest answer like last time R | ||
| CJXB |
hat was the big plan, but it ain’t working out so hot on humanoids. I think beer’s the culprit. I think you're right !!!  | ||
| Brucelee |
If the child in its mothers belly was going to be still born or had a genetic issue which would only alow it life for a very short term(spin or other vital parts born outside the body) would you require the mother to carry to full term knowing that in the end the child would be born dead or only live for the shortest of time, with the parents looking on and never being able to hold the child until its death.A child that could never breath and its entire time alive per se, was on machines(ie if there was no life support the child would have died with in seconds, machines sometimes only prolong the pain) Real honest answer like last time I am not sure why you keep asking me for a "real honest answer?" Is there any other kind? If a unborn child IS stillborn, by definition this child IS dead and still residing in the womb. In this case, there IS no abortion to perform, rather a medical procedure is necessary to remove the dead child from the mother's body. No one that I know of would object to this nor call it an "abortion." If a child IS to be born with birth defects, this is a much tougher moral issue and one that I am not sure how I feel about. I will think it over. However, I would ask that you look at the point that YOU keep avoiding and I keep repeating. That is, you keep raising these archane issues to support the use of abortion and these issues apply in a very very small number of cases. Yet, the vast majority of abortions performed in the US are on healthy unborn children who ARE NOT the result of some aberrant act nor crime, incest etc. In effect, most mothers use abortion as a form of after the fact birth control. I have an issue with that. This tactic is used by the PRO-CHOICE folks to try to justify abortion on demand for any cause. I find this tactic disingenuous at best. | ||
| Grndskpr |
I am not sure why you keep asking me for a "real honest answer?" Is there any other kind? Yes, there are answers that are given to win an argument, an argument that is unwinable, but never the less an attempt is made, these answers are what usually lead to violent out bursts. However i am compeled to continue because of you honestly, others should take note If a child IS to be born with birth defects, this is a much tougher moral issue and one that I am not sure how I feel about. I will think it over I thought about it for 16 weeks, very very difficult, and to be honest i dont think i could have done it, i dont think i have what it takes to raise a child with an extreme birth defect, i realize that is rather shallow, but i just dont think i could have done it However, I would ask that you look at the point that YOU keep avoiding and I keep repeating. That is, you keep raising these archane issues to support the use of abortion and these issues apply in a very very small number of cases The issues may be archane, but they are relevant, at least to me, you see i had to think about all these things and more when i had my child, while my wife went through her pregnancey I had to think about the what ifs, i had to have my mind made up prior to each doctors vist, so while you may consider that archane, i find them relevant and hiting very close to home Hence all the questions, its not that i am pro abortion, and its not that i am pro life, its just that i suspect many, actually most are some where in the middle And acoding to some of your answers your closer to the middle than you may want to belive However unlike you i feel the the case of incest rape and other disturbing cases the woman has every right not only to abort the few cells in her body, buy she also has the right to never allow that man to do it to anybody else, ever, as in castration, dosent have to die, but he should never be allowed to do somehting like that again JMHO R | ||
| Brucelee |
The issues may be archane, but they are relevant, at least to me, you see i had to think about all these things and more when i had my child, while my wife went through her pregnancey I had to think about the what ifs, i had to have my mind made up prior to each doctors vist, so while you may consider that archane, i find them relevant and hiting very close to home I can understand the questioning from a personal standpoint. As a father and as a grandfather to be, these ARE important issues for all concerned. However, it is important to remember that the VAST majority of unborn children aborted are not aborted in the face of these very unfortunate situations. Hence my point about birth control vs. dealing with rare situations like birth defects, rapes etc. Hence all the questions, its not that i am pro abortion, and its not that i am pro life, its just that i suspect many, actually most are some where in the middle And acoding to some of your answers your closer to the middle than you may want to belive That of course depends on who you are comparing me to. If you are comparing me to the fem libbers at NOW, then I am certainly not in the middle. However unlike you i feel the the case of incest rape and other disturbing cases the woman has every right not only to abort the few cells in her body, Right, we disagree on this point. buy she also has the right to never allow that man to do it to anybody else, ever, as in castration, dosent have to die, but he should never be allowed to do somehting like that again JMHO R Well, that is a topic all by itself. Thanks. Good dialog. | ||
| CJXB |
In effect, most mothers use abortion as a form of after the fact birth control. I have an issue with that. I have an issue with that as well, but again I'm sure I do things others with better morals than me have issue with and I wouldn't want them telling me I can't drink, smoke etc. So while I'm against it personally for myself, I'm still not sure I'd want to make it illegal ?? i dont think i have what it takes to raise a child with an extreme birth defect, i realize that is rather shallow, but i just dont think i could have done it It's not shallow, it's honest, I'm not so sure I could do that myself, but I do admire people I know who have done so !! However in a case like that if it caused NO risk for the mother, and if there is someone willing to adopt that child, could you or others have chosen that route instead ?? I mean if I knew that in a case like that my child could be raised by good people and have some quality of life and be loved and experience life and love, whether I could raise the child or not, I've give that child the only chance at life it would have !! You see wonderful people raising kids with HUGE birth defects and shows about them, it's truly awesome. I swear I watched one where a couple had two daughters, one really cute and the other had the most monstrous face ever !! She literally couldn’t breath without a tube or something, couldn’t eat food, and needed extensive surgery but couldn’t until she was older. The dad was in the Navy and so had job stability and the insurance issued taken care of and I’m not a real sensitive person but that show made me cry !! Horrible birth defect or not, that family loved that child, the sister was so caring of her and loving towards her and that child was as happy as possible, and to have ended her life over her birth defect would just have been such a loss. Again I’d worry that a child with such problems could also end up having a miserable life too, so I’d be worried. Again I guess I’m back to I don’t know what the answers are !! | ||
| Blake |
This is some really great discussion. Thanks all for the honest yet civil reparté.  Richard did a great job of summing up my views. Way to go Brucelee, you communist progenitor of violence.  | ||
| Brucelee |
We aim to please! Thanks Blake!  | ||
| Eboos |
I felt like I needed to do a little homework before I jumped into this conversation. http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview/international.html Apparently we are running out of US children available for adoption so we have had an increasing number of children from other countries being adopted. I wouldn't like the idea of taking away the option for abortion, however, I think that there should be some mandatory (and meaningful) counceling to cover other options like adoption. Abortion shouldn't be treated like a tooth cleaning. A few months ago, I brought up the topic of idealism vs. realism, I think this applies here as well. Idealisticly I think that people should rise to that occasion. In an unplanned pregnancy, the parents should start making plans for the birth and rasing of the child. This should be independant of whatever plans they have of staying together. Both of my children were born this way (yes, with the same woman). When my girlfriend was pregnant with our first child, we were at the very beginning of our relationship. We kept that as a seperate issue, realizing that we may not stay together, but would have an equal part in raising our child. That was three years ago, and we are still together. The seperation of the anticipation of our child being born and the development of our relationship made our relationship work. Now for the realism, my situation was of the lucky few. I realize that there are a lot of wouldbe parents out there that should not ever be the parent of a child. Some people are too selfish, or immature, or plain evil. These people would not likely persue the option of adoption. If these mothers are drug addicts, the children could be doomed for a life of handicap. Ultimatly, I think that the choice should be made legally available. This, while unagreeable to some, would at least prevent desprate women from seeking out unlicensed and illegal (and unsafe) abortionists. There is no absolute right and wrong. The world is a giant gray area. Only your own consience will let you know if you did the right thing. | ||
| Jimidan |
Rocket sez: "Cool! Can we do the same for ugly? But doesn't natural selection do for that already? Rocket" And it works unless you have no choice...like when a bunch of folks are isolated on a big island.  jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Brucelee sez: "My stance may make you furious but then, yours does not make me furious. Why, because unless folks can discuss difficult issues without anger, there is no movement on any tough issue." Thank you Mr. Testosterone Poisoning...remember that next time you and Rocket get into it...  jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Why not just abort all of the insurgents? How 'bout them Buell XBRR's? Ain't they fast! Whatdoya think about a water-cooled Buell engine with 4-valve heads and ceramic cylinders? Of course, it will probably show up on a Sportster first...but hey, that is a "real" motorcycle! How 'bout if Buell used KTM's hot little V-twin engine in an XB style sportbike chassis...might as well do it, as KTM is never going to get around to it. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on October 06, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
Brucelee sez: "My stance may make you furious but then, yours does not make me furious. Why, because unless folks can discuss difficult issues without anger, there is no movement on any tough issue." Thank you Mr. Testosterone Poisoning...remember that next time you and Rocket get into it... jimidan Did you have a comment relevant to the point we were discussing? | ||
| Jayvee |
Which point was that exactly? The insurgents? Ugly people? "Mexican polka"? | ||
| Rocketman |
Jimi, if you want to spend your time chasing my comments up in every thread then good luck to ya. My comment in this thread was a joke for my good friend Capt Pete. I and my comment really had nothing to do with this topic. I haven't followed it one bit. I saw Capt Pete's name come up in the tree search and always look to see what Pete writes. I wouldn't feel comfortable arguing with a racist in any case. You'd be to easy. Rocket | ||
| Rasmonis |
Wow, what a thread. It's been a while since I last checked. Long time reader - first time poster "here". It's good to know there are people out there who can discuss these intense topics in such civil fashion. If only our elected government officials were as open minded... I've refrained from posting and may regret that I did later...Please forgive me if I offend anyone - family members included. And now, my RANT. I'm not sure this is going to go over very well, but here goes... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX - edited at the last minute. The same holds true for many other people I've come to know. Abortion as a means of birth control is OK with me, it should be covered by health insurance and be made available to lower-income and teenage parents-to-be at a reasonable or affordable cost. Abortions should be conducted as early in the pregnancy as possible and both parties responsible (except for rape) should agree on the procedure. Under-age patients would need parental/guardian approval. - sign on the dotted line please... There are way too many people on this planet and a significant number (whole countries in some parts of the world - opinion only as I have to factual data to back this claim) end up living their lives in abhorrent conditions, or under cruel and unjust circumstances - hunger, slavery and abuse are the usual suspects. Way too much needless suffering that could have been avoided. English should be made the official language of the US. Press 1 for English, 2 for Spanish, 3 for Italian, 4 for Japanese...Pretty soon we'll be in the double digits before we get to the options! I need technical support for crying out loud! I can't hold on the line that long! I need answers! If you're going to live here learn the language like everyone else does when they visit a foreign country. How many of you have had the opportunity to travel to a non-English speaking country? Ever try to order food or ask for help in English? See what happens. Nothing! They look at you like you're from outer space! Speak the host language (or try at least) then things start to happen - it's the right thing to do have some courtesy. Bring back the pledge of allegiance and prayer back to our schools (who you pray to or not, that's your choice). Illegal aliens, CT's whatever you want to call them, leave or join the military for your citizenship - at least do it legally. I could not believe how they protested on our very streets! They should have been collected, imprisoned then deported. Punish those who hire them, provide aid in transport or provide hospice. No benefits, no health care, get out please. It is criminal that our taxes pay for benefits given to non-citizens. Don't like your country? Change it, if you can't do it alone I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, find them and make change - die if you have to. I thank my God and pray daily in thanks to those who came before me, fought and died to make this country what it is. I joined the service and volunteered for 8 years - I felt it was the least I could to to serve my country for everything I have the opportunity to enjoy. While I'm at it - screw selective service. Military service should be mandatory for everyone 18-22yrs regardless of sexual orientation, gender, or class. I would go back to segregating basic trainees by gender and sexual orientation perhaps. Believe me there's a job for everyone in the military, there are even plenty of non-combat related jobs for the conscientious objectors. Other jobs can be created in agriculture, telecommunications, engineering, waste management, health care (we need nurses!!!) etc...to rebuild our infrastructure at a federal level. What you gain from this experience not only will make you a better citizen, it will make you a better person all around. Criminals should have the option of serving their time in combat zones. Have we discussed the death penalty yet? 3 attempts to appeal then you're out period. No amnesty no pardons. I would consider offering death-row inmates their choice of death, or an opportunity to serve their country one last time on a special one-way assignment over-seas. Lastly, we are a country at war. It pisses me off how everything is our fault. Terrorist have been killing innocent people and attacking our country for decades OK? They don't fight fair. They capture our soldiers and kidnap civilians to torture or murder publicly without any condemnation or outcry from the rest of the world; yet we are Satan's spawn for the way we treat prisoners of war?!!?!. WTF! This is war and we should be able to fight it anyway we chose as long as the mission is accomplished. There are no rules in combat, ask the terrorists. I've seen plenty of beheading videos, it is a slow painful death people - hardly fair. Regardless of how we got there, we are there and have a job to do, let us do it. Hard to fight your enemy under public scrutiny...and forget the spectacle we allowed at the UN a few weeks ago! Where were our snipers? I'll take one stupid tag while I'm at it what's the limit per household? -Ras (Message edited by Rasmonis on October 06, 2006) | ||
| Eboos |
"While I'm at it - screw selective service. Military service should be mandatory for everyone 18-22yrs regardless of sexual orientation, gender, or class. I would go back to segregating basic trainees by gender and sexual orientation perhaps. Believe me there's a job for everyone in the military, there are even plenty of non-combat related jobs for the conscientious objectors. Other jobs can be created in agriculture, telecommunications, engineering, waste management, health care (we need nurses!!!) etc...to rebuild our infrastructure at a federal level." We can not allow mandatory service to become accepted if we want to maintain the high standards that we have achieved since the elimination of the draft. As it stands right now, it is too easy to get into the military, and such an honor should be reserved for only the most qualified. Unfortunately we are in a sociaty that does not value service as much as it should, and that is a symptom of the overall problem being discussed in this thread (not immagration, just lack of nationalism and sense of duty). As a former Marine and a recruiter, it sickened me that I had to "sell" the Marine Corps to applicants. Yet by doing my job, and not taking any short cuts (trying to qualify people that aren't), I ensured that, at least from my end, the next generation of Marines are every bit as worthy of the title as the last. "What you gain from this experience not only will make you a better citizen, it will make you a better person all around. Criminals should have the option of serving their time in combat zones." The first part I agree 100%. The second part I disagree 100%. We can not allow untrustworthy individuals to represent us in combat. Look at what has happened in Iraq. 6 Marines and a sailor are being tried for the murder of a civilian. Weither or not you believe that they are innocent is irrelivant. US Marines are known throughout the world for being the highest tier of professionalism, yet these few, who probably have a clean record before hand, undermined the entire operation in the court of public opinion. Could you imagine if these people already had a criminal record? Our military would have lost the trust that we, and the rest of the world, have given them. |
