| Author | Message | ||
     Djkaplan |
I think life starts at conception and abortion is murder. I, however, fully support the right of a woman to murder her unborn child if she wants to. Sounds bad, but that is really what pro-choice means, and I am pro-choice. If a woman wants an abortion, she should legally have the right to have one. Perhaps we are already paying a karmic debt because of our society's brutal savagery of the unborn. Mass murders, schoolhouse massacres, random violence... it seems life is becoming pretty cheap in the US. | ||
| Bomber |
adoption -- there's a throny issue I know a fair number of folks that have travelled half-way round the planet to adopt a child from China, Russia, name it, anywhere but the US After beating around the bush alot before asking the question (it's really none of my bidness), the answer I got to "why'd you go to China rather than adopt here" was, "it can take 5 or more years to adopt a child in the US, and there's a very good chance the birth parent(s) will change their minds after you've loved the child for 5 or 10 years, and the courts are reversing adoptions left right and center. hasn't happened yet with an adoption from (fill in the blank)." again, no easy answers, only hard questions one of hte questions I used to ask during abortion conversations was "how many unwanted children have you adopted." I don't ask any more -- yet another thing that's none of my bidness | ||
| Brucelee |
"I think life starts at conception and abortion is murder. I, however, fully support the right of a woman to murder her unborn child if she wants to. Sounds bad, but that is really what pro-choice means, and I am pro-choice. If a woman wants an abortion, she should legally have the right to have one" So, am I to ascertain that you think murder is acceptable from a personal and societal point of view? | ||
| Brucelee |
"again, no easy answers, only hard questions" A hard question for the lawmakers and judges is this: Why is adoption made so very very difficult and an abortion made so very very easy to obtain. The conspiracy theorists among us could have a ball with this set of questions. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"So, am I to ascertain that you think murder is acceptable from a personal and societal point of view?" No, I don't think it's acceptable. But what I find less acceptable is men that think it's their right to dictate to women they don't know, that they can't terminate their pregnancies if they want to. I am anti-abortion and already stated it's murder, but freedom of choice in your life is more important. In a perfect world, abortion wouldn't exist... but this ain't no perfect world and stupid men and stupid women will be making the same mistakes untill the end of the human race. | ||
| Greenlantern |
"Why is adoption made so very very difficult and an abortion made so very very easy to obtain." A) Lawyers B) Cost ($5,000- $40,000 to start)vs.zilch to a grand for the majority of abortions. C) All of the above. (Message edited by greenlantern on October 03, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
"Why is adoption made so very very difficult and an abortion made so very very easy to obtain." A) Lawyers B) Cost ($5,000- $40,000 to start)vs.zilch to a grand for the majority of abortions. C) All of the above" Yes, I understand the above but the question I was posing is the underlying why? In other words, who is writing the laws such that an abortion costs under $1000 but an adoption costs many times that number. Seems like the fundamental question to be answered here. | ||
| Brucelee |
"I am anti-abortion and already stated it's murder, but freedom of choice in your life is more important. " Using this logic, you would be free to murder someone else if it were YOUR CHOICE? I guess I am failing to see the consistency in your logic. The mother should have freedom of choice even if it is murder? Does this extend to after the child is born? | ||
| Cowboy |
Doont beleave in Abortion till they are 18 yr.old if they have not showed some promise by then go ahead with it. | ||
| Hans |
Brucelee, now you are exaggerating. It becomes a play with words. It has started when the ending of a low life form was called murder. It is not: Murder is killing an human. That life begins at conception is false: Spermatozoes are certainly already alive. That human live begins at the conception may be true, but there is still no human life at the conception. From the starting point, the cell conglomerate has to evoluate through stages where it looks like a worm, a fish a bird, an ape, before it gets an human form. A time limit, set at the point where an independent life is possible seems to be reasonable. I have met never somebody who is PRO abortion. It is always a choice between two bad possibilities. I have always done my thing to make the alternatives more attractive for women. But to forbid abortion, making it a capital crime, seems me a most cruel thing for women. Hans | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Using this logic, you would be free to murder someone else if it were YOUR CHOICE?" You want things to be black or white, but they never are. You want to take what I said about how a pregnant woman should have control over her womb and use it to infer that I said anyone is entitled to kill anyone if they choose. That's not what I said, that's not what I meant, that's not part of what this discussion is about, but hey... it's all basically free association at this point. So I get to do the same thing... by your same concrete logic, the state should be able to make a woman carry a fetus to full term, even if she was raped by an insane maniac. Is this what you believe? "I find it interesting that I know a number of folks who will go down the street to picket and support a woman's right to "choose" to abort her child to be and the next day, tell we how horrible the death penalty is and how we NEED to stop this carnage." What I find interesting is all the pro-life demonstrators that support the death penalty. | ||
| Jayvee |
I agree with Cowboy, I think we should allow retro-active abortion ! Why is murder bad, but capital punishment is allowed? The STATE reserves the right to inflict violence upon persons to itself. That's why "vigilante" is derogatory. (Where are the Libertarians when you need one?) | ||
| Greenlantern |
"Yes, I understand the above but the question I was posing is the underlying why? In other words, who is writing the laws such that an abortion costs under $1000 but an adoption costs many times that number. Seems like the fundamental question to be answered here." IMO it is not as much the "who" as it is "How many hands are in the Cookie Jar ?" that is the driving force here. Adoption costs are so high due primarily to the amount of behind the scenes players it takes to clear the red tape. The lower end of the price spectrum is for adoptions from a foster care/state mandated agency. Since there is already a paper trail on these individuals, there is a lot less sign off cost involved. The higher ranges reflect private and/or international private agencies where the adopter Picks up the costs of legal documents,recoup of childcare costs... and ..profit. Remember we are talking about private agencies which need to be in the black to keep doing business, Hell try adopting a purebreed dog and see if you get out the door without spending 2 to 5 bills! Abortion meanwhile is pretty much a waiver of liability away with funds going to the practioner.No lawyers on a case by case basis costs just to cover office overhead and profit for him/herself. I am being careful not to get involved in the whole "Abortion Debate" thing as I believe it is simply too big a issue to be properly discussed in this type of forum (size, time restraints and the such and not the participants by any means)But I do wish to finish on this note. Respect your fellow man, respect life period. Try to see life through others eyes before snapping to judgment of them or their opinions or actions. And Mom's favorite, " If you can't use common sense then sit down and shut up ! That last one has given me many a new lease on life over the years, Dumb ass I was?!? in my youth. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Brucelee, now you are exaggerating. It becomes a play with words. It has started when the ending of a low life form was called murder. It is not: Murder is killing an human." Hans, he said it was murder, I was following up on his logic, using his words. "That life begins at conception is false: Spermatozoes are certainly already alive. That human live begins at the conception may be true, but there is still no human life at the conception." That is your opinion and of course, it is not shared by many many folks. "From the starting point, the cell conglomerate has to evoluate through stages where it looks like a worm, a fish a bird, an ape, before it gets an human form. A time limit, set at the point where an independent life is possible seems to be reasonable." What is that time limit in your judgment? I do know that there have been many convictions of folks who have assaulted a pregnant woman whose unborn child has died. Many of these assault convictions are for murder. So, clearly some courts feel that a human life has been taken and define it as murder. What is confusing is that these same courts will rule that a mother can terminate that same unborn child and it is called "choice." "I have met never somebody who is PRO abortion." I have. "It is always a choice between two bad possibilities." I agree. "I have always done my thing to make the alternatives more attractive for women. But to forbid abortion, making it a capital crime, seems me a most cruel thing for women." I never suggested that a woman should be charged for a capital crime if they obtain an abortion. I also don't agree that abortion as it is defined today should be legal. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Why is murder bad, but capital punishment is allowed? The STATE reserves the right to inflict violence upon persons to itself" There are tons of arguments for reserving the power to terminate a life for the state. In point of fact, the legal definition of murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of a life. By that definition, abortion was murder and then later, it was not. Hence by question about when the taking of an unborn child's life is murder vs CHOICE. When a robber shoots a woman and her unborn child dies, that is murder. When she decides to terminate that life at the clinic, it is a choice. That is the legal situation right now. I for one, don't care for that. | ||
| Brucelee |
"You want things to be black or white, but they never are. You want to take what I said about how a pregnant woman should have control over her womb and use it to infer that I said anyone is entitled to kill anyone if they choose. That's not what I said, that's not what I meant, that's not part of what this discussion is about, but hey... it's all basically free association at this point." Go back and read what you wrote. You said that abortion was murder but your were pro-choice" so you support a woman's right to have an abortion. I was asking you about that statement. "So I get to do the same thing... by your same concrete logic, the state should be able to make a woman carry a fetus to full term, even if she was raped by an insane maniac. Is this what you believe? " Yes, that is what I believe. After the child is born, that same state would have to take responsibility for the child, the woman is off the hook. " "What I find interesting is all the pro-life demonstrators that support the death penalty." I have no issue with this and see no inconsistency. In one case, I see folks advocating for protecting a life that cannot protect itself. In the second case, I see the state removing a convicted murderer from out midst. I am fine about this. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"... by your same concrete logic, the state should be able to make a woman carry a fetus to full term, even if she was raped by an insane maniac. Is this what you believe? " "Yes, that is what I believe. After the child is born, that same state would have to take responsibility for the child, the woman is off the hook." I have to bow out of this thread to preserve the civility of the discussion. Absolutely nothing I have to say in reply to this statement is civil. | ||
| Reindog |
Is it human? 2 cells : Proto-human 4 cells : Proto-human 8 cells : Proto-human 2^3 cells: Proto-human 2^9 cells: Human I don't know where and when the transition to human is but it is there somewhere. Just like I don't know what the definition of pornography is but I know it when I see it. For many, this is a strict black and white issue. For me, it falls in a gray area within boundaries. | ||
| Aesquire |
I, myself would like as few abortions as possible. There are serious ethical issues. Some have been addressed, here. There will never be zero. Even in Islamic tribal states where a woman is considered property, and may be stoned to death on the street for an "offense" so trivial we would laugh at it being called an offense in our culture, you can get an abortion. I'll let others debate the relative sickness of that. From a completely practical point of view, Nations where abortion is not legal have more abortions per person than nations where it is. So, banning abortion will increase the number, not decrease it. It will also greatly increase the number of women killed in back alley operations. Look at Mexico. A morning after pill it seems, also has ethical issues, but is to be preferred to surgical procedures. Will improved education & easy availability of conception control devices/drugs reduce the number of abortions? I think yes. The most effective way to reduce them to a minimum, I think, is a change away from a hypocritical Elizabethan sexual more toward a more open & honest attitude toward sex & reproduction that let's the generations communicate better, & helps keep the need for after the fact population control to a minimum. Also, rapists should be killed. And I'm against the death penalty. ( but I recognize the very real fact that there are people we do not want sharing our planet, so am open to suggestion ) | ||
| Grndskpr |
Blake What would you say if I posted how poor a Buell XB bike was, knowing full well i never owned one??? Just wondering R | ||
| Blake |
I'd say "I disagree with you; I think that Buell XB's are wonderful bikes." | ||
| Blake |
Cowboy,  I like that! | ||
| Blake |
Should we rename this thread "Surgeons are taking over America"? DJ, This may flip you out, but I agree with Richard (Brucelee) to some extent. Not sure I would oppose a morning after pill type of scenario; still thinking about that. If you haven't seen it, the true story made Hollywood movie called "North Country" is a good one and illustrates how such a situation can follow a course of action that seems to you absolutely outrageous. It is for sure a very emotional and contentious thing to try to discuss. Thanks for avoiding a flame war.  I think most folks would like to see an end to all middle to late-term abortions. The folks on the fringes of both sides are the ones who are most vocal. The partial birth abortion ban is coming up before the Supreme Court this session. I'm thinking it will pass. Previously it was rejected in the form of a state law due to an absence of considerations for the mother's health. The federal case makes clear that there is never any case where an abortion via partial birth versus full delivery of the baby is of any health benefit to the mother. The prior state law based case did not present well that argument, so it was rejected. I wish y'all who are not doing so, would use some kind of alternate formatting to distinguish quoted text. I'm easily confused you know.  (Message edited by blake on October 03, 2006) | ||
| Bomber |
I'm with DJ on this one -- I'll no longer be able to particiapte civilly in this conversatoin, so I'll wish you all a good day, and happy debating! | ||
| Brucelee |
I have to bow out of this thread to preserve the civility of the discussion. Absolutely nothing I have to say in reply to this is civil. I guess I am puzzled by your reaction. This whole series of exchanges has been quite civil so far. | ||
| Hans |
Brucelee, I can understand why people want to stay out off the debate: It is the ineffectual fury when you imagine that bright eyed people, with an air of total innocence, proudly are keeping their intolerant opinions and beliefs, when women are driven to death by suicide as result of the future expectations of an unwanted pregnancy, or as a result of a depression by guilt for their deed, or just to death by harmful experiments. And words in that fury will do more harm than good. If you want to do something to prevent abortion: Educate, support women, let her the choice, take away the guilt, support unmarried mothers, break down intolerance, support full term pregnancy with adoption. Love is so much better than the intolerant sword of "justice". Hans | ||
| Skyguy |
Seems to me the heart of this debate is that no one really knows exactly when life begins. The religious right has one definition and the liberal left has another. Until an agnostic panel of scientists tell me exactly when life begins I am going to stay the heck out of other people lives. This in effect makes me anti abortion but pro choice. How about this? If a persons IQ is less than 70 they get sterilized before old enough to breed? This would make everyone but the stupid (and the ACLU) happy. I am sure it would greatly reduce unwanted pregnancies. | ||
| Brucelee |
Brucelee, I can understand why people want to stay out off the debate: It is the ineffectual fury when you imagine that bright eyed people, with an air of total innocence, proudly are keeping their intolerant opinions and beliefs, I have not seen any "fury" being directed at anyone in this discussion. I believe the thoughts around the issue have been communicated quite well without personal diatribe. when women are driven to death by suicide as result of the future expectations of an unwanted pregnancy, Not sure where you see this happening? Certainly, I have never seen an account of this happening in my local newspaper. or as a result of a depression by guilt for their deed, or just to death by harmful experiments. Not sure what you mean by this? And words in that fury will do more harm than good. Again, I am not sure what you mean here? If you want to do something to prevent abortion: Educate, support women, let her the choice, take away the guilt, support unmarried mothers, break down intolerance, support full term pregnancy with adoption. Love is so much better than the intolerant sword of "justice". That is all fine but I am unclear what your point is. Much of this happens now and yet unwanted pregnancies are clearly still happening. I am for taking away the option to terminate an unborn child simply because the mother doesn't want to carry it to term. I am not sure why that option should exist given it is a life we are talking about, at least to me it is. That is the heart of the debate as I see it. | ||
| Brucelee |
Seems to me the heart of this debate is that no one really knows exactly when life begins. The religious right has one definition and the liberal left has another. Until an agnostic panel of scientists tell me exactly when life begins I am going to stay the heck out of other people lives. This in effect makes me anti abortion but pro choice I suspect if you ever see a film of a later stage abortion you may change your mind. From there back (earlier in term), it is just a matter of degree I think. | ||
| Skyguy |
Brucelee, I don't think late stage abortions are very cool at all. If it needs to be done it should be done at a very early stage. Exactly when/where that point lies is truly the center of the debate as I see it. Again, stupid people should not be allowed to be able to breed at all. Kinda funny; I was in a town yesterday with more stop light cameras than I have ever seen in one place. Yet there are no controls on stupid people breeding..... |
