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Rick_A
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:20 am: | 
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There are several types/makes of bikes in several classes allowed unlimited displacement in CCS and F-USA. If it wasn't so, there'd be a lot of bikes with very few classes to compete in!
I've yet to attend any of these races (but I will), but I do keep on top of a few of them...and I think it's awesome that there's a very diverse mix of bikes mixing it up in a lot of different classes. In contrast...read about the top ten in any AMA Supersport race, and there is really nothing of interest in it for me at all.
Blake...nice chart but you forgot 2 and four stroke singles. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:27 pm: |
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As I said before, Jose (were you willing to be honest, not just print selective items backing your opinion...you're not in Washington, or in politics or anything like that are you?), what was said on the telephone and in person between the AMA and Buell is not able to be printed here. I suppose the notes that were taken during the conversations could be, but they won't be.
As far as racing a bike with more displacement than what was available to the public...well that would then also apply to the Superbike Ducatis when they were smaller displacements and the "homologated" race kit brought them up to 1 liter, hmmmm?
Sponsoring brand was allowed modifications other brands weren't is what you suggest? BS. BMW and Moto Guzzi pushrod models could do exactly the same engine modifications. Pro Thunder was never advertised or planned to be a stock class, you idiot, Jose. No, I apologize...idiot would suggest stupidity, when in fact you are being malicious.
You know very well that the SV-650s running well in the class (if you can call it well, when they got lapped in most cases) were radically modified, with full carbon-fiber fairings, major displacement increases, major chassis modifications, mag wheels, etc. Besides a weight advantage that Buell was fine with.
The reason a "stock" Ducati could win in the class is because they make a $30,000 homologated model with all the pieces above. And if you think Jeff Nash's bike was a "stock" one of these, think again. If you want to watch a one brand race, you have it with BMW in March. Buell was not willing to do that with Pro Thunder for Ducati.
The complaint, and the only one that Buell ever seriously pushed back on the class was around the Ducati being allowed to increase displacement to 800cc as well as having the advantage above. It was in response to feedback from other competitors, including 748 owners who already had so much in their bikes and now had to add modification kits. BTW, the SV-650's were allowed to increase to that size...
Oh, and the other bikes in the class, like the Triumphs that gave up, were stock? Take a look at the BMW from Europe that ran at Daytona a few years ago...stock, right? You know better, Jose, and you distort the truth for some bizarre reason.
Well, enough about the BS of Jose. Sorry to all, but after listening over and over again to the attacks on Buell Racing from him, I just couldn't take it anymore.
Thank you Blake, for your dead on comments on the situation. You are right, you cannot run for the AMA Preo Board, and therein lies the rub. I also thank you for your well-thought out chart. Racing needs to be competitive to be exciting; there are many ways of doing this.
One is single brand with specific and restrictive modification rules, like 883 and Lightning. One is very specific class rules for one specific design that a number of manufacturers can try for, like AMA 600 Supersport. One is a formula class that balances different types of vehicles and engines to match competitiveness. This can be done like Nascar does around pure racing vehicles on a weekly basis, and it makes good racing. It can also be done like Pro Thunder, where derivatives of stock designs are balanced on an annual basis.
I say and do what I believe in. So, up the long ladder and down the short rope! |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 03:27 pm: |
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JQ
"Sell what you race, race what you sell, simple as that."
Who does that? Show me competitive bike in ANY class doesn't use any after market or modified parts. HRC will sell you a "factory race kit" for several thousands of dollars but it won't include all the same parts as the factory race teams get.
Any chance your medical insurance would pay for a reality check?
Greg |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 04:42 pm: |
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JQ doesn't need me to defend him, but I think all he's saying is a RR version should be available so "grass roots" guys could run with grass roots Hondusukis. It would draw more intrest from the average riders where unlike world class riders, brand loyalty is likely. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 09:25 pm: |
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No, it's not that Jose doesn't need you to defend him, he doesn't deserve you to defend him. JQ just loves to belittle Buell from his little soapbox.
Building reliable race replica street bikes is a stinking expensive proposition, only tackled by huge companies like Honda, etc. with multi-multi million dollar budgets. It is a cutthroat money-losing business, and is done for image to bolster sales of standard stuff where there is profit.
Ducati builds race replica bikes, yes, but they are hideously expensive, and even Ducati struggles with the cost at those prices...their race budget, NOT counting development projects like the GP bike, was $25 million last year!!! They have burned through all of TPG's money and are on the market again.
This is completely out of reach for Buell. What pisses real Buell enthusiasts with race knowledge off is the denigration that comes from guys like Jose, when Buell fought like crazy to fund classes for privateers to race Buells and other brands.
The bottom line comes down to money, and Buell doesn't have enough. I mean the AMA's posturing about too many classes ended real quickly when BMW opened their purse strings, didn't it? |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:40 pm: |
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You've got a good point about race replicas. I guess I'm just thinking about 1970 when a little Jap company put out a cheap motocrosser to compete with Montessa, Maico, CZ and such. The DT1MX wasn't world class, wasn't the beat everything super anything. It WAS cheap, race ready, and affordable to race. It helped build a MONSTER of a company when Europe dominated the sport. Buells are expensive to race. Ducatis are rediculous for club racing but lawers, doctors, engineers race them. Buells are great motorcycles but the rich n famous don't ride them, the kids with no money on R6's know they can burn them. How does a handfull of $25,000 thunderbikes going to sell them to people that don't already know what Buell is about? Please don't misunderstand I love all 3 of my X1's. But a few other Buells at the track, that are club competitive, would be nice. Plastic bodywork instead of carbon or headlights, race kit can't cost that much more to build than stock muffler and air cleaner, they already have X1 heads and barrels. Where is the big costs? You can buy a new dresser with a big bore kit, why not a sportbike? The cost associated with racing Buells is buying a bike and putting most of it on a shelf in the basement. |
S320002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
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According to Cycle World, Honda is rumored to have set aside a budget of $150 MILLION dollars for its RC211V MotoGP bike.
If Buell had that kind of R&D budget I have no doubt they would be competitive.
The fact is they don't.
Sadly, winning races these days is all about the money.
Greg |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:08 am: |
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Sportsman,
Making a race replica is stupidly expensive these days, far from the cost of a DT1. And a DT1 sure wouldn't run with a Husky or Maico in those days! So you ran for the fun of it and to learn. And remember what happened to the guys who didn't just ride, but poured money into their DT1MX's and such trying to beat the European stuff? Well, they broke a lot and went broke, until they finally bought a European bike.
The point of this? An XB9R is a great club motorcycle just like it is. They kick butt in the classes where they are competitive, with virtually no changes (se Canadian Thunderbike class). The bodywork is plastic, tough as nails and dirt cheap if you do damage it. The bike handles incredibly well stock. So, go ride it! If you make it bigger displacement it runs in a different class where the bikes are faster, so don't bother.
So why would do guys throw away all the pieces? To turn them into Ducati 748RS beaters. That won't happen without money. The changes that fast racers make cost tons of money on every bike, even race replicas.
So, take a Firebolt to the track, stock with maybe a pipe on it, and I guarantee that racing will be a riding treat and will cost you darned little. And by the time you can get the thing around a track in anywhere near the lap times that a Higbee or Cicotto can on a stock Firebolt, well maybe Buell will have a race replica!
In fact by the time I can go that fast on a stock Firebolt, Buell might already be World Superbike champion!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 04:40 am: |
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Ben:
"the perception would be that the AMA is giving Buell a 400-cc advantage"
Why wouldn't the common perception be that the AMA is giving the 600's advantages over Buells of...
additional cylinders
12 additional valves
8,000 additional rpm
1 additional cooling subsystem
Why is that, REALLY? Answer... Because the public has been indoctrinated as such, that's why. One theory of psychology that I have heard is that if a human mind registers/processes the same unrefuted postulation on five or more separate occasions, that supposition is accepted as fact. Politicians and marketing types often like to exploit this quirk of human behavior.
You've seen the studies where the supposedly stupid/slow kids when put into an atmosphere of respect and praise inevitably raise astoundingly their levels of achievement. They weren't really stupid or slow minded, they simply thought they were. Why? They heard it asserted five or more times and lacked the self confidence to refute it. Every wonder how the heck infomercials do so well? Now you know.
Now, I want everyone to read the following at least once each day for the next five days...
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Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 06:53 am: |
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>>>You've seen the studies where the supposedly stupid/slow kids when put into an atmosphere of respect
The concept is called "modeling", the theory, advanced by Carl Jung and others, that a person told something for a sufficient length of time would emulate others perception of them. I think of this every time I see a parent yell, "you are so stupid" to their kids.
It's a shame that COMMON sense isn't, as it applies to motorcycle racing. I've never bet my mental Buell ranch on Buell HAVING to beat any and everything some sanctioning organization pits them against. I enjoy watching the Buells race, because I enjoy Buells and Buell people.
Success, in a “pedal to the metal” world, must be measured in light of the tools one wields. Buell, person and motorcycle company, has survived things you boys and girls can't possibly imagine to be where they are today. Buell, person and company, has finite resources in terms of human and financial capital. It is to Buell's (person) credit that he is able to hold in check his competitive racing urge and FOCUS on what puts food on the table; producing cutting edge, FUN motorcycles that are uniquely rewarding to ride and own. Racing would be a fatal mistress to a focused business.
I said, back in 1996, that *IF* Harley-Davidson's desire was to WIN races (I'm unconvinced they really need to do much more than provide the throaty v-twin sound coming down the front straight at Daytona to accomplish any marginal sales that racing yields) that they need do nothing more than provide Buell (the person) funds and facilities. They'd be on the podium more than >50% of the year.
But reality enters the picture as our pal Jose' prepares to attend Reality Indoctrination class. In the real world, it seems Buell (the person) has a family to feed and kidlets threatening to chew deeply into the paycheck attending far more college that most of us qualified for; that's a good thing.
Ergo, it is logical for Buell (person) to do what Buell (company) is charged with doing and that is making quality, marketable consumer motorcycles that are unique, evoke passion and support a business case. To his/their credit they've done a marvelous, if not miraculous, job.
People, led by their self proclaimed King JQ, seem to be incapable of "balancing". Racing, to them, means beating EVERYTHING at ANY COST. That's not the world we live in.
I learned, last year at Bonneville, how funny it was to tell people a 1650cc bike had broken the 200MPH barrier after well funded folks had spent heavily trying for 14 years. The response "I thought someone had gone over 400mph" showed they were incapable of dealing with "apples to apples" or ever truly appreciating how much fun we had bringing folks from 7 countries to collaborate on this.
Ducati, and I maintain a fairly close tab on (through common friends) these folks, spends wildly on racing with little or no measure of "what will it return in sales" thought. To compare a $10,000 tube frame Buell to a "factory" 999 with a $3,000 rear shock would put you among those who believe Suess's books were non-fiction. 'Taint so.
In closing, I will go out on a limb and tell you that, as alluded to above, I'm gettin' a sniff that these XB based bikes have the potential to evolve into "giant killers". I've already entertained one call about fielding a Team Elves Road Racing Team.
Buell (person and company) have done a spectacular job of participating at an "appropriate" level, trying (till the AMA smacked them on the nose) to provide the most support they could and, all the while, staying focused on what they are in business to do; BUILD FUN MOTORCYCLES.
Court |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:03 am: |
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Quote:well that would then also apply to the Superbike Ducatis when they were smaller displacements and the "homologated" race kit brought them up to 1 liter
Yes it would and it did, because they SOLD the bike to the public, like Aprilia has with their Mille R, and Harley did with those lucky 50 Polish citizens that were able to "buy" a street legal VR1000.
Buell has never sold a 1350cc, fully faired, twin front brake, chain driven, six speed transmission "homologation" special to the public anywhere in the world.
If they did that I would not argue the point.
If HD/Buell do not want to pay that price again, they should forget about racing in the AMA. Be happy in FUSA/WERA, nothing wrong with racing there. If that is still too expensive, then don't bother racing, just spend the money making the best street bikes they can.
MotoGuzzi never had a factory backed Pro Thunder team. Buell did, there's no denying that.
I think what really bothers Buell is that they don't get to say those three little letters anymore, AMA, and they don't get the Speedvision TV coverage, what little they did get.
It's like a college student comes back home and when they ask him where he's going to college and he says "Cambridge, MA" so people think he means MIT, but he never actually says he's going to some community college there. He likes the "prestige" associated with going to the big leagues.
Face it, Pro Thunder was Affirmative Action on wheels. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:07 am: |
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Quote:what was said on the telephone and in person between the AMA and Buell is not able to be printed here. I suppose the notes that were taken during the conversations could be, but they won't be.
The AMA specifically quotes two letters they received from Buell about this situation.
If the letters do not exist then the AMA is lying.
If they do exist, scan them and post them here, please. |
Buelliedan
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:38 am: |
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I tried to use that "modeling" theory last fall. I had convinced myself that I could stay right on the tail of a heavily modified Duke with my S3 last year in the hill countries finest twisties. For over 5 miles I was Nicky Hayden and was glued to his ass. But then reality set in and I made a mistake! S3 no more |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 12:27 pm: |
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>>>Buell has never sold a 1350cc, fully faired, twin front brake, chain driven, six speed transmission "homologation" special to the public anywhere in the world.
They'd have been fools to even consider it.
I'm sure we're keeping you from an optimist club meeting. It'd be ludicrous for Buell to dilute their corporate budget producing and selling to the public a "race" bike. Any clue as to how many of the "race" (and don't be fooled into thinking that a Mille R or a 999R go from the box to the grid...even the VR came with a caveat to the effect that it was a "rough" package and should not be started until torn apart, proper maching and clearaning done and reassembled by a competent person)
Buell does the best, given the contraints, they can. They commit SOME (and I'm betting that Erik, unconstrained about increase the number to a level that would thrill Jose') resources, toss some materials to the racing group and allow Henry to take calls, answer questions, act as a liaison and attend events.
Buell owners, rabid folks be they, have always taken up the slack and produced some bikes that are great fun to watch. BMW folks, I'd guess, would be less likely to do so.
And what's with all the taunting and challenging to produce documents, secret letters and incriminating evidence....heck, you work for the Gov't, don't you get enough at the end of the day? Heck, I am a lowly construction worker and I'm so filled up on graft and corruption in federal highway programs that it makes me puke!
Court |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:15 pm: |
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Jose, you don't have clue "what bothers Buell" either the man or the company.
Buell likes racing. HD likes likes racing. Erik likes racing. The Davidson family (I can't speak for all of them but it is true for many) likes racing.
I believe the company does it BECAUSE IT IS FUN. I don't believe you can make a case that racing or even winning races would move Buell or HD's market share even 1 percentage point.
It is important to the Japanese companies sales BUT not as important as it is to the corporate egos. I seriously doubt that Honda got 150 million bucks worth of sales out of their MOTOGP wins.
Jose, what you seem to refuse to believe is that Buell and HD go raicng 'CAUSE IT IS FUN. Do you for a minute think HD gets ANY sales results out of winning flat track races? Both conpanies and the people involved would like to win, sure, but they will go racing where they can and will make the best case they can make for corproate involment so they don't have to pay for it out of their own pockets.
I don't see anyway Buell or HD can make a case for building a race replica 600 class machine or a superbike in the kind of volumn it would take to make any money. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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Buell has never sold a 1350cc, fully faired, twin front brake, chain driven, six speed transmission "homologation" special to the public anywhere in the world.
They haven't had to...and even if they did...who'd want a bike substancially more expensive than a 999 and still slower than a Supersport 600?
If you want a world beater...there's plenty out there. I agree Buell should stick to grassroots racing 'cause I think it's an arena that suits Buells. This boils down to what JQ wants Buell to build. Maybe in your infinite wisdom and with boundless resources you can acquire the company from H-D and work your magic  |
S320002
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
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"...just spend the money making the best street bikes they(Buell)can."
I'm not sure he realizes it but JQ occasionally has a lucid thought.
Greg |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:55 pm: |
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I'm glad Buells aren't world beaters. It keeps the squids off of them. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 03:17 pm: |
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The XB's are closer than you think in relation to running with the 600's at club level. I DO NOT think they'll compete in moto GP, ever. The millions of dollars you're talking about is for WORLD competition. I DON"T CARE WHO WON A RACE IN SPAIN. I care when I have to pass the same 5 guys on R6's lap after lap because of being passed back on the straight. If your putting together an engine, how much more does it cost to put the crank pin further out? NOTHING! OK maybe whatever it cost to put it on the spec sheet. A sprocket instead of a pulley? pennies. A deal with Sharkskins or Air tech would not cost $1,000 a set as it does for you or I, even if they only got 500 sets. Then they could deduct the cost of lights and the stock fairing. An extra caliper will be a cost, but not the $1,500 setup available now. 500 XB12RR's is about 450 more Buells on the tracks than there are now and they wouldn't be being blown away. Big buck replicas, bull. Just something to give the jap bikes a run for it without having to have a shop like Hal's. It would be good for Buell and Buell riders. It wouldn't break the bank, but it's not going to win AMA races either. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:16 am: |
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JQ,
I quite specifically addressed your unconcerns wrt the Erik Buell quotations offered up by the weasel at AMA Pro Racing. See the post here. Get real.
Send your engine along with some cash to Cycle-Rama, or Nallin Racing and you will get it back in proper 1350cc form. You sure are hung up on some trivial stuff. The name of the class was "Pro" Thunder, not "Stock" Thunder. Why the hell does it matter if the displacement of a race bike is the same as it's street bike cousin? 
Did you notice the CCS racing class displacement limits I posted earlier? Lots of "unlimited" and greater-than-stock displacements weren't there? Why do you think that is? Answer... to foster and promote the best/closest possible competition between ALL brands and models of motorcycle.
Court,
Team Elves Road Racing eh? NOW you're talkin'!!!
That reminds me, I gotta get in touch with R. Nallin to let him know that OHR is now open to non-CMRA members. He wants to bring his street tire shod dirt tracker out for a spin. Do you think he would be willing to pull dual duty as roadracer and salt pilot?  |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 08:39 am: |
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Is racing fun, yes. But where you race is important too. I'm sure HD/Buell would rather be with the "Big Boys" at the AMA races than at the FUSA event in Daytona this year.
I'll be at the FUSA races, not the AMA races. Will any of you be there?
I have never seen Wille G at a FUSA race (I have not been to all of them), but I did meet him at VIR at the VR1000's last race. If that event was not important to him I don't think he would have bothered.
At the club level, they are allowed displacement breaks because otherwise they would be uncompetitive. Simple as that.
However if you want to race at the AMA or WSBK level, there are several pesky "homologation" rules that a manufacturer has to meet before they can race, and every one of them has met them one way or another.
If Buell wants to race in the AMA with their current bikes, should we exempt them from the rules that everybody else has to follow? Should they get a break because they are American?
For the street, if Buell wants to sell a bigger bore 1350cc XL based bike which wouldn't comply with EPA drive by noise limits, should we get Congress to tell the EPA to exempt Buell from the rules that everybody else has to follow. Should they get a break because they are American?
If it was not for the EPA or the AMA or the FIM, boy, Buell would have put out a World Beater by now, eh?
It's a Conspiracy, right?
Brand loyalty has its limits, but you all are blind. Go to a track and try to make your case, you'll be laughed out of the paddock.
Bye. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 08:47 am: |
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Quote:Do you for a minute think HD gets ANY sales results out of winning flat track races?
Why sell the original XR1000 or the current 883R if they don't think people want a dirt track replica? They get that request all the time at the bike shows and at the dirt track races.
If people didn't want that bike they would not have bothered making it available.
They get plenty of sales results with the 883R. Buell would get plenty with a Blast based 500R. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 08:54 am: |
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Quote:I'm not sure he realizes it but JQ occasionally has a lucid thought.
Did you read Buell press release, Greg? They decided to sponsor Thunderbike and offer contingencies in that class.
Go back to the beginning of this thread.
Blake wanted them to sponsor Sportbike, I wanted them to sponsor Thunderbike.
I'm sure I had nothing to do with their decision, but they did what I suggested that they do.
Not bad, eh? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 08:56 am: |
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Hey Sportsman (Doug), Buell of Frederick, MD is looking for a rider this year..... |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 09:04 am: |
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>>>>Why sell the original XR1000
Basically, it was a mistake, a misread market when HD figured folks who actually BUT, as opposed to SAYING they'd buy, a race replica.
The XR1000, to this day, is one of the nightmares of HD model history that included two $1,000 price increases between it's announcement and the first delivery.
Performanace fell lightyears short of what had been promised, requiring the "speed kit" to even make the bike approach what it was supposed to do.
Jerry Branch, who did the "speed kit", was overwhelmed with the work making the heads for the stock bike that orders for the kit fell months behind.
Don't get me wrong, I had one of the best XR's ever made and loved it. But, from a commercial perspective, It had to be an unpleasent experience for HD, who the Gov't was favoring as "American" through tarrifs on large displacment bikes from Japan.
The 883R consists of about $37 worth of "go fast" paint. Again, I dig the looks. If I were going to buy a Sportster, fully cognizant that it's not particualarly fast, doesn't handle particularly well and is a "see and be seen", I'd opt for the 883R.
And, while we're on this, I totally dig Woz's Storz Special. In fact, I dig all 19 of Woz's bikes...now there's a dude with taste  |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 03:05 pm: |
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Well I guess it wasn't really a lucid thought. Sigh. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 03:56 pm: |
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Buell's mission has always been to build streetbikes/backroad burners, first and foremost, hasn't it? Their roles as racebikes are secondary at best. I'm sure if Buell wanted to race with the "big boys" it'd already be.
If it were feasible for them to easily build a streetable, large(r) displacement/higher hp pushrod aircooled motor it'd probably already be in production.
The XL883R a dirt track replica...
It sometimes doesn't take much to make more sales in an image based market. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 04:28 pm: |
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Sportsman,
"If your putting together an engine, how much more does it cost to put the crank pin further out? NOTHING! OK maybe whatever it cost to put it on the spec sheet."
There are a few other things you should budget for just in case a simple drawing change won't do it:
1. Increase the diameter of the crank wheels so you have room to move the crankpin farther out.
This would change the dynamic balance of the engine and also result in a slower revving engine due to the heavier crank wheels.
2. Change the cases to accommodate the larger crank wheels.
3. Change the oil scrapers to fit the larger crank wheels.
4. Change the piston, connecting rod or both to keep the piston from smashing into the cylinder head on the up stroke.
5. Change the piston to crank clearance to keep the piston from smashing into the crank wheels on the down stroke.
6. Make sure the piston doesn't drop too far out of the cylinder on the down stroke.
Other things you might want to prepare for:
7. Greater sideloads and friction on the pistons and cylinder walls.
8. Greater shear stresses on the wrist pins.
9. Greater bending stresses on the rods.
10. A 22% increase in piston speed. (Based on you desire to stroke the engine from 984cc to 1200cc.)
11. Ring flutter due to piston speed.
12. The need for increased cooling.
13. Changes in tooling and assembly procedures.
These are all things that would occur before you increase the horsepower.
The list is much, much longer but thirteen seems like a good place to stop.
Switching to chain drive would also include more than just swapping pulleys for sprockets.
Don't feel too bad, manufacturing, design and engineering always seem simpler and cheaper if you're a rider and not an engineer.
Greg |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 06:45 pm: |
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Thanks Jose', But I'm sure they'll find somebody alot faster and more dedicated than I. I'm still at the for fun level and am too old to HAVE to do well.
Sombody else explain my thoughts to Greg, I must not communicate well. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 07:16 pm: |
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Sometimes I wonder if it's a "good thing" for these folks to have these "real racers" made avaiable to the public.
Thanks to pal Andy Goldfine for sharing.... |
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