| Author | Message | ||
     Snotrocket |
Ok, I probablly know what you guys are gonna tell me but I thought I might just ask anyway. I came across whats called an "electric turbo". Basically its an electric turbine fan that hooks up to your intake and forces air into the intake at a high rate. Has anyone ever messed with these before? It seems to me that with a nifty circuit design, something like this may be somewhat usefull??? If anyone is interested in messing with it I'll help design a throttle position sensor-type circuit for the device. Im not really good with the whole turbo theory so I don't really know if something like this would actually work. Im curious to see what you guys think. | ||
| Andrew |
Snot, I was looking at them a week ago. Really sounds too good to be true. My own experience says it costs "Mucho Bueno Dinero" to make real gains beyond freeing up the breathing on both ends. peace, | ||
| Hootowl |
Did you look at the current requirement of these things? Well beyond the capacity of our tiny batteries/charging system. | ||
| Andrew |
yeah, 50 Amps draw at WOT...Buells charging system puts out a whopping 22 amps at 3600rpm according to the book. Think I'd spend my $300 somewhere else  | ||
| Totway |
I think its very interesting, all the engines used as examples on the website are 4 or 5 times the CI of a Buell. You maybe able to actually generate 1 or 2 pounds of boost over several seconds! | ||
| Reepicheep |
It would be (effectively) an electrical supercharger, which should be a little less efficient then (but not real different) then a mechanical supercharger. I've wondered before why this is not done. If anyone knows the change in air volume needed, it would be pretty straightforward to calculate the power required to pump the air. Aren't turbo boost figures expressed as deltas in atmosphere (like 2 atmosphere boosts)? If they are, we could draw a rough correlation to power consumption versus boost. In theory, it is pretty neat. The battery becomes your energy sink that will eliminate turbo lag, and even to some degree power losses from the super charger (though not on ultimate top end, but could do a good job on acceleration) The control system would be non trivial, the mapping / carburation would be a mess, and the mechanics of a reliable air pump (read: compressor) that can survive a motorcycle would be very difficult.. It would have to provide a lot of pressure AND a lot of volume, and the pressure would be a lot of extreme transients. Off the cuff rule of thumb big swag... I have a cheap air compressor out in the garage that dims the lights and blows breakers, but cant even keep an impact wrench running. I don't (based on a wild guess and intuition) think it would be enough to feed my Cyclone. Remember if it does not have enough to cover the absolute PEAKS of the air intake requirements, it simply becomes another intake restriction. So I think my compressor draws far more power then the Buell can deliver, and produces much less air volume then the Buell needs.. Shrug... so I guess I talked myself out of thinking it would work. Never Mind. Fun to think about anyway... | ||
| Vr1203 |
My cheap shop vac, on discharge reads about 3lbs on my turbo gauge which is installed on my bike. Don't ask how I know this. | ||
| Blake |
Bill, The fan doesn't need to pump all the air feeding the engine, it is simpy helping it a bit by increasing the intake pressure available to the engine. | ||
| Hans |
Blake, I think that is the exactly the problem: A turbo has to replace lots of air: Vacuumcleaners do but their pressure is low when they have to replace lots of air, some cheapest cleaners with valves can build up higher pressure but they deliver not enough air. ALL the feeding air has to be delivered by the blower: Otherwise the "normal" inlet air would be blown out by the "help" of the pressurized air. An outlet gas driven turbo is in fact the "cheapest", most simple solution. Hans | ||
| Anonymous |
This subject has been research and documented many times. It is too good to be true. That is to say it is not. For the reasonably intelligent: http://www.autospeed.com/A_0237/page1.html Inappropriate anonymous post by "Featheredfiend".  (Message edited by blake on February 22, 2007) | ||
| Sarodude |
What I've read about this particular product in the past is that its real purpose is basically to overcome a bit of intake restriction... Don't think of it as a forced induction device but rather a really free flowing intake. Hey Blake, care to do some math on how many watts or horsies it takes to provide a 1200cc motor an extra atmosphere worth of pressure?  -Saro | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hans / Saro... But what happens when the fan is no longer supplying enough air? At that point, the engine must pull air THROUGH the fan, and I *think* it would just become an intake restriction... I think. Maybe you could have a couple paths, the normal open intake and a high pressure "air injector" of some sort, but would this be much better then simply running two completely open intakes? What I think would happen is that the fan does fine at low and moderate RPM's while it can supply sufficient volume, but when RPM's climb it can't supply the volume, and the engine must pull air through the fan blades (accelerating them further and wasting power). I think the little bit of help the electrics are offering would be quickly lost by the added intake restrictions where it really matters. But this is pure speculation... If anyone knows offhand the volume of air consumed by the engine at high RPM's? It would be pretty simple to work out power requirements. Just look up the specs on an average air compressor (power used and CFM delivered), divide that out to get a cheater conversion factor, and use that to calculate the power required (1 horsepower = 745 watts). It would not be exact, but would be good enough for a sanity check. Bill | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just followed the autospeed link above... excellent read, and they have the CFM requirements there, as well as taken apart versions of one of the electrical superchargers. In a nutshell, if you dont have a 500 amp (yes, that is a five with two zeros) fuse somewhere in your Buell, and a wire going to the device roughly as large as your thumb, you ain't gonna see much out of this thing. Also, looking at the construction, I would be amazed if the fans were not totally siezed up within 6 months of hard riding. | ||
| Sarodude |
Bill- IF (BIG if) one can believe the dyno charts on their web site (Dyno Chart, Dyno Chart, Dyno Chart) they seem to provide engines with more power than ours with enough air. This is all academic, anyway, as someone already mentioned that our poor little electrical systems probably won't appreciate the wattage this thing needs... -Saro | ||
| Anonymous |
This is JC Whitney stuff. Back to doing your homework: heads, cams, exhaust. Real money. Real results. No short cuts. Inappropriate anonymous post by "Featheredfiend". (Message edited by blake on February 22, 2007) | ||
| Djkaplan |
I remember a friend of mine approaching me with the idea of an electric supercharger when I was in college over 20 years ago. Although I didn't provide him with any calculations, I explained to him the power to turn even the most docile turbo or supercharger would necessitate a huge electric motor. Plus, it would have to be controlled by something more sophisticated than a rheostat connected to the throttle. It's an extreme example, but I think it takes 400hp to turn a blower on a top fuel engine. I started tittering when I saw the $300 "electric supercharger" in the link. It looks like it might actually cause a flow restriction at high engine speeds. I wonder how many people will buy this snake oil? | ||
| Sarodude |
Absolutely - but it's kinda fun to run some ideas around sometimes! Just think - press the 'Turbo Boost' button (a la Knight Rider), watch the lights dim, and IMAGINE you're about to jump over Garth - Michael Knight's evil twin and his evil vehicle Goliath. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Saro | ||
| Madduck |
Guys, If you are at all interested in Bonneville LSR, there are plenty of open records in lots of different cc classes that require a blower. If you attach one of these to a bike and it does nothing at all for power it may qualify you for a record just because no one else has run in that class. The record would be yours until someone else buys a "real" blower to top your speed. Food for thought. Paul | ||
| Sarodude |
Paul- I THINK I remember reading that it must be a mechanical or exhaust driven supercharger. Further definition of mechanical may be needed, but it would seem that electric isn't what the rulemakers had in mind. I'm not really familiar with their rules but I've become acustomed to reading race org rules a certain way. -Saro | ||
| Aaron |
Saro is correct ... from the rules: 6) Class BF: Same as Class F, except supercharger or turbocharger is required and must be mechanically or exhaust gas driven. No restrictions on fuel. 7) Class BG: Same as Class BF, except it is limited to pump gasoline. See General Rules, Section II-2 on gasoline. Water injection is allowed, but water tanks must be inspected and sealed prior to each record run. | ||
| Blake |
Anony, The Twin Turbo Zet that your linked article addresses was not anything like the electric blower system that I recall seeing discussed here previously. The one I recall only claimed modest power increases, stated that it only kicked on at WOT, and had a pretty significant power consumption/requirement. I tried to find that product or its reference here and even did a Google search but with no luck. I do recdall thinking that it was a very plausible and reputable product; they even had some very believable dyno results showing before and after performance gains. Though I agree that the Twin Turbo Zet device is ineffectual and a scam for the unwary, the writer of the article made one very elementary mistake in his technical discussion. He assumed that the electric blower must by itself generate the entire intake flow and at a boosted pressure level. It doesn't. An inline fan type of electric blower would add to the engine's nominal intake flow such that if a normally aspirated engine flowed 100 CFM and an electric blower fan could flow 20 CFM the total flow would be increased to somewhere between 100 and 120 CFM. Bill, In addressing your and Anony's link's points, I'm now speaking with respect to the reputable electric blower previously discussed, not the Twin Turbo Zet scam. The fan goes in line with your intake tract. The fan only engages under WOT conditions. Therefore power consumption can be limited to fairly short bursts where the battery can easily augment the charging system. Run it for too long a duration or too often however, and yes, it will deplete your battery and lose its effectiveness. As to the viability of such a device... When the fan is disengaged, air is free to flow around the fan; yes it is an obstruction, but at less than WOT, and especially at cruising speeds, it can be made an insignificant obstruction, especially if the fan duct is large relative to throttle body. Think about how much more just the throttle is obstructing the intake tract when it is only 1/8 to 1/4 open. The electric blower I remember had options for either a 2-1/2" or 3" diameter orifice. Let's forget flow rate and CFM for a minute. Think about the intake situation from a ram air perspective. We know ram air intakes work right? They work by putting a higher pressure (above atmospheric) at the intake tract's main orifice. A ram intake takes advantage of the stagnation pressure that builds up in front of a fast moving object. At 125 mph at STD conditions, that stagnation pressure (Q) is... That 40.0 PSF is equal to just 0.278 LB/IN2 (0.278 PSI) which in turn is only about 0.02 atmospheres. Not much is it? But ram air works quite well at speeds above 100 mph. Is it then plausible that a small electric fan with a modestly powerful motor could generate a similar effect?  Okay, here's the math... ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) First let's calculate a theoretical flow rate: The flow rate (FR) in CFM will be equal to Displacement (D) in FT3 times RPM/2 times volumetric efficiency (VE) or... Displacement = 1200 cc = 73.2 IN3 = 0.0424 FT3 Assuming volumetric efficiency (VE) is 100% (100% = 1.00), a BIG assumption, the flow rate at 6,000 rpm would be... Does that mean that the electric blower needs to be able to pump more than 127 CFM? No. As demonstrated previously, we only need the electric motor to help increase the pressure in the intake. For a 2-1/2" orifice at 1.0 atmospheres pressure, what velocity corresponds to 127 CFM? The velocity of air at atmoshperic pressure traveling through a constant section orifice is equal to the flow rate in CFM divided by the cross sectional area in FT2 of the orifice. The amount of boost will depend on the power and design of the fan. The electric blower literature that I recall claimed to produce around 1/2 psi of boost for a resulting power increase at WOT of around 5%. Not earth shattering performance, but not having to mount a mechanical blower or deal with turbocharger issues makes it a simple and attractive option for some. And apparently the price is right too. Unfortunately, the one I recall was only designed for automobile use. Not sure if they could be made to work well and integrate nicely on a motorcycle. Any engineers or flow bench types may notice that I've taken a few shortcuts in the above analysis, namely that pressure in the intake remains at atmospheric. It doesn't, unless it is benefitting from a ram effect. That fact however, has negligible bearing on the discussion presented. The velocity would simply be higher than calculated. Anyone recall the name of that electric blower? Class dismissed. | ||
| Totway |
Go to www.electricsupercharger.com | ||
| Anonymous |
Blake writes: "reputable electric blower" By whose definition? It's interesting how this comes up from time to time and people address it with such credibility. We were laughing at this stuff decades ago. A reputable Porsche bulletin board went through this same thing just this year. Normal, apparently sane people, were willing to put aside everything they knew to be true to, once again, prove that the earth is not flat. It doesn't work. There is no value to it. It is a waste of your money and time. No independent test will ever show it to be of any value. It does prove, however, that PT Barnum got it exactly right. | ||
| Totway |
Interesting that this voice of conviction, this sdispenser of reason and knowledge is sent from an anonymous address!! | ||
| Blake |
Anony, What's with the anonymous post? Grow some, please. As to your contention that "It doesn't work. There is no value to it. It is a waste of your money and time. No independent test will ever show it to be of any value. It does prove, however, that PT Barnum got it exactly right." Well, the concept is actually VERY simple and it passes muster with this mechanical engineering professional. We're talking about a 5% performance boost here. That's not much and is well within of a typical ram air intake at moderate triple digit speeds. From the Reputable ERam Electric Blower Site... "A 3 liter engine draws about 320 CFM at 6000 rpm. The fan has to produce that airflow at a 1/2 psi pressure. To do this, with all the inefficiencies of flow and restriction, about 700 watts is needed. This is less than 1 hp of electrical energy required at 13 volts drawing about 50 amps. This gives a net 4-6% HP gain at the driven wheels, which is maintained throughout the HP curve." No different than a ram air intake at speed. Should work fine. Blake (THEbiggestskepticyouwillevermeet) | ||
| Anonymous |
Well, a "mechanical engineering professional". It's been a while since I've heard anyone string those three words together in one sentence. I guess every generation has to try to fly the same ol' flag to promote the same ol' hype. What this thread needs is a good waste treatment engineer. They exist, at least in part, because mechanical engineer professionals roam the earth. That nomenclature, "engineer", gives no more credence to your argument than trying to slight my "anonymous" posting. You would be better served by taking your concern of my "anonymous" posting to the webmaster. It is their provision. Participants of this board only need look around the periphery to find solid information as to increasing the performance of their machines. Talk to those who are providing the real gains. There's little discussion and mostly humour surrounding this electric supercharger bunk. Noone making the real gains in horsepower has time for this silliness. It's an exercise for the idle. Most here know who to talk to. It's not Eram. An impromptu poll of posters concerning the veracity of the Eram claims might be entertaining. But I would confess, in advance, any count to Eram's favour might have me petitioning the webmaster for a name change from "badweather bikers.com" to "browardcountybikers.com". And, no, you're not the biggest skeptic I will ever meet. I've already lived longer than that. Inappropriate anonymous post by "Featheredfiend". (Message edited by blake on February 22, 2007) | ||
| Sarodude |
Hey Anonygenius- Blake IS the webmaster... -Saro | ||
| Anonymous |
Blake IS the webmaster... Which is my point. Inappropriate anonymous post by "Featheredfiend". (Message edited by blake on February 22, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
Well Anony, It's pretty darn simple... I laid out the math and physics of the situation. You say it's a myth. Fine, you are entitled to your opinion. So anony, show me where I'm wrong. The math is pretty simple stuff. If you have trouble following the physics or math, well, maybe you are not qualified to comment on the issue. I'm sure all the bike manufacturers offering ram air intakes would be interested in how you refute the benefits of a mildy pressure charged intake. Whether you find it informative or not, I threw out my credentials so that you might have some confidence in my analytical argument. I never imagined four years putting myself through college towards an engineering degree as hype. Neither did I imagine offering my chosen career or credentials as flying a flag. It's just what I do and what I know. I'm sorry if it intimidates you. (not really) As to your continued anony posting. I understand you've now dug yourself a hole from which escape is difficult. That's fine; play it out however you will. In the future however, please accept that the option to post anonymously is made available for the benefit of those who might like to provide interesting information but must not divulge their possible relationship to the source(s) of that information. So please avoid the anony option in future threads to which you would like to contribute. I'll be waiting on your rebutting analysis to show me where I'm wrong. Webmaster? That's a laugh. I may be a BBS admin, but I'm no webmaster. Thanks to Saro though for thinking so highly of my webish skills, which in reality are pretty much nil. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Jeez,what a frikkin rant,Anonymouse.Go somewhere else like Labusa's or something.And their right,there are a ton of boosted records that would be very easy to best with this even with no h/p gain.The boosted record in the class I am running is an incredible 110mph while the gasoline class is 167 and change.Which do you think would be easier to break? |
