| Author | Message | ||
     Snotrocket |
 I'm new to the whole Buell scene so bare with me. I have a question though. How/why is it that my buddies CBR600 can easily out-run my S3? I guess what I am really trying to ask, is what is the main difference between our engines that allows his to run that much faster than mine? Not to sound like a total idiot, but 1200cc vs. 600cc, that was kinda imbarassing. Not to mention, his bike redlines around 12-13k. Wow! Once again, I don't understand how that is even possible and why my S3 doesn't redline that high. Im more curious than anything... Thanks! | ||
| Darthane |
Well, I'm not in the slightest bit an expert on such matters, but here's some basics that contribute to that. Weight - that little CBR probably weighs a buck less than your S3. 100lbs on a car isn't much, on a bike it's anywhere from 20%-30% weight difference. Redlining - the CBR has 4 pistons that only amount to 600cc displacement, you have 2 totalling 1200cc. That means your pistons are much larger, therefore heavier, and can't rev as fast. Plus the CBR is liquid cooled, and therefore can keep a constant temp better than the Thunderstorm in your S3, meaning it revs higher. Japanese bikes, in general, are all about top-end power, whereas your S3 is low-end grunt. Your bike produces something on the order of 78 ft/lbs on the pavement at like 4000 rpms - the CBR might be lucky with 42 at the crank - produced at over 10,000rpms. There's really no point comparing the two to begin with, as the S3 and the CBR600 are different animals with different aims. Be content with the fact that you can ride 240 miles on your S3 and not even have a sore muscle, then nail the twisties and never look back while the CBR's still trying to pull out of the turn. Bryan | ||
| Aaron |
Horsepower is the performance metric, and horsepower is torque x rpm. Your motor is designed for torque, his is designed for rpm. Even though he's got far less torque than you, his combination of torque and rpm (horsepower) is higher. His bike is also lighter and geared more effectively. | ||
| Mikej |
Somewhere there is a little 350cc or 250cc race bike that will smoke that CBR600. Displacement is just one factor in the equation. I'm no expert, but if you really want to start to understand engine dynamics, start looking at bore & stroke. You've got a big bore long stroke engine, he has a smaller bore and shorter stroke engine. Top engine RPM is limited by piston speed against the cylinder walls and drive train geometry and dynamics. Push rod engines will not normally run as high RPM as an overhead cam engine. Longer stroke engines can not run as high RPM as a shorter stroke engine. Compare dyno charts on both bikes if you have them available. Your available power band should be a whole lot wider than his. I'll leave any further discussion to the more expert people. | ||
| Aaron |
"Your bike produces something on the order of 78 ft/lbs on the pavement at like 4000 rpms" Yikes! get that thing fixed! My Blast will absolutely smoke it if it's only putting 78 ft/lbs to the rear wheel! | ||
| Aaron |
"Your available power band should be a whole lot wider than his." I don't know the specs on a CBR600, but a typical 600 has at least as wide of a powerband as a Buell. Let's say he makes 40 ft/lbs from 6000 to 12000 rpm ... that's equivalent to us making 80ft/lbs from 3000 to 6000rpm. | ||
| Snotrocket |
This is really good info guys! Keep it going, im learning allot! Thanks! | ||
| Spiderman |
Aaron don't start with that again!!  It is all about the tourque and release i beat the piss out of a GSXR750 the other night. A few months ago it was a CBR929 i eat 600F4I's for brunch, mind you that is off the line and in my lower gears on a M2. | ||
| Jima4media |
People have talked about weight, horsepower, torque, bore and stroke, and number of cylinders, but haven't talked about skill. The skill of the rider is still one of the most important factors in determining who is going to get from point A to point B. In watching the Moto GP races from Germany yesterday, the 500cc two strokes were winning the race against 990cc V-5 220 HP Hondas, up to the point where they crashed into each other. It was a tight course, the riders knew it well, and to their advantage. Next Lance Armstrong did another victory stage in the Tour de France, using less than one horsepower up a 9,000 foot mountain in a 2,100 mile race. Pure skill in the world's most demanding three week race. It ends next Sunday. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Archer |
Spiderman is right, Buell's take practice to launch well. The torque is high and the revs short. It will take time but eventually you will smoke his little rocket. My M2 will smoke a 600 in a heart beat. SNOTROCKET??? are you a new rider? | ||
| Darthane |
Aaron, that number is just a guess on my part, but if his S3 is stock it's probably about right. A stock Blast only puts about 25 ft/lbs on the pavement, so unless you've done some SERIOUS shit to your Blast (like what I'm planning...heehee) I think his S3 should still be able to beat you.  | ||
| Snotrocket |
Archer, I am a new "Buell" rider. However, I've been riding motorcycles every since I got my first dirt-bike when I was 8 (suzuki DS80, I'm 25). To be quite honest though. Its been a good 5years or so since I have ridden a street bike so my level of ridding is probably pretty low. There's no doubt in my mind that skill level played a part in my S3 getting a spanking. I'm still trying to figure out how to take off fast without popping the front wheel off the ground. | ||
| Peter |
Darthane, Get ready to put on your flack jacket and your learning cap.......  PPiA | ||
| Daves |
 Give up drag racing, go to a track school or two or nine and you'll kick the shit out of most guys on whatever. You'll need some rearsets for the S3T and some lower bars if you want to get serious on the track. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Waterloo Ia | ||
| Snotrocket |
Dave, In response to your answer. I was wondering where everyone gets all of their aftermarket stuff. I would be intrested in possibly getting some different handle bars and rearsets. I've checked our sponsers and didn't really find what I was looking for. Are there any other options out there or does American Sport Bike pretty much carry everything that I should/would need? Just curious, I've seen a bunch of cool looking bikes and can't figure out where everyone gets all of their stuff. | ||
| Aaron |
An S3 with 78 ft/lbs at the rear wheel is either major broken, or it's geared to the moon. My Blast makes 38ft/lbs at the engine, and even in top gear it has 4.74 of overall gear reduction. That means in top gear it puts 38 * 4.74 = 180ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheel. Substantially more in first gear. It'll easily smoke an S3 that only has 78ft/lbs at the rear wheel, in an acceleration contest. A typical S3, though, makes 78ft/lbs at the engine, and then runs that through 3.61 of overall gear reduction in top gear, giving it 282 ft/lbs at the rear wheel. That's a little tougher to outrun with my Blast. | ||
| Spiderman |
Darth, Aaron is on some wacky shit where he figures out all these dynamics and some how comes up with these large ass tourque numbers. Still don't understand and probally never will. JUST LET BELIVE WHAT I BELIVE AARON  | ||
| Dueller |
I'm by no means a skilled drag racer but I kick the living bejeesus out of the 600-750 rice burners on my "slightly" modified S1W at the local drag strip....even with me weighing over 200#'s and all those pimply faced upstarts weighing about 93#'s. Of course its only an 1/8 mile strip and I barely get into third gear at the traps. Once those little crotch rockets get spooled up they begin to come on strong and can come by me at the quarter but by then I'm sitting up and hauling the Buell to a stop with a big old grin. On a separate note....don't ya just love that the crotch rocket guys don't talk to you cause its a Harley and the Harley poser/cruiser/rubs don't talk to ya 'cause its a crotch rocket? Kinda a good feeling in my book... jim | ||
| Daves |
Snotrocket, ASB has a great selection of stuff for your Buell and Tat is a good guy. I am a dealer for them also so whatever you need you can get in touch with me or go directly to Tat. Banke also makes rearsets and other stuff for your Buell. I know that AlanX1 is a dealer for their stuff. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Fact: The CBR600F4i is an awesome bike. Over 100 rwhp, awesome handling and light weight. A good rider on an F4i will smoke most bikes. Equal riders, I'd put my money on the F4i on any course vs an S3: twisites, drag race, sweepers, whatever. Don't take this as a "Buells suck" thread; it isn't. CBR's are race replica's and should be able to tear apart a sport tourer. Apples to Oranges. Vik | ||
| Snotrocket |
Dueller, I know what you mean about other riders not talking/waving. Its pretty funny. On another note. It's also pretty funny when you catch one of them checking your bike out at a stop light or parking lot. I've only had my bike for about 3weeks or so. I've lost track of the # of Harley riders that have come up to my bike wondering what it was. The majority of them are old-school Harley riders who recognize the sound but don't understand why its coming from a crotch-rocket. It cracks me up to just stand back and watch one of them inspect the bike like its a UFO or something. Its toooo fuuunnnny! | ||
| Darthane |
Aaron... ...whatever. Oh, and Eeeek, according to several dyno charts I looked up on CBR600s, even with aftermarket slip-ons they're not making 100rwhp, and Honda's stats for the engine state 96bhp. Bryan | ||
| Spiderman |
He is talkin about one of thoes chromed and extended swing arm CBRs  | ||
| Dueller |
Snotrocket As one of about 8 buell owners in Mississippi (I have 2 of 'em--a 97 M2 nekkid beater and a 98 S1W)they're pretty rare. For example...I went to a rally in "little" Sturgis (Mississippi) and of 5,000 or so bikes I had the only Buell in attendance. I was on my Molten Orange/Nuc Blue S1W and every where I parked it drew crowds in a sea of custom glides and softails. Interestingly most of the older, long time harley riders were quite complimentary and wanted to know about performance, etc....seems the newcomers who bought $20,000 "lifestyles" complete with every leather fashion accessory were the ones who ignored the bike...whatever...probably didn't know what it was. Anyway,,,the company logo "Different in every sense" pretty much sums it up. jim | ||
| Eeeeek |
Well, I watched an F4i with a slip on pull 103 rwhp. At this same dyno shoot out, a ZX6R also pulled 103 rwhp and most Buells were pulling high 80's. Regardless, my point is valid even if I was talking out fo my ass. The F4i is a Supersport bike where the S3 is a Sport/Tourer. I've ridden an F4i through the same set of twisties I take with my X1 all the time and I feel I was faster on the F4i. I can't say that authoritatively; however, we went though on our own bikes and I was struggling to keep up with the CBR and finally lost him when the road opened up. We switched and I, on his bike, dusted him on my bike. The CBR just felt AMAZING! Vik | ||
| Gravedigger |
Jim and Clinton, You can always tell the real riders from the posers/weekend warriors. The actual real harley riders always seem quite complimentary towards our bikes and want to know more about them, while the posers/weekend warriors either don't even look at them or have some smart ass comment to make. Easiest way that I have found to deal with these weekend warriors with the smartass comments, is just simply point out that you just have a little 1200 sportster moter in there. let them scoff thinking they are the next american badass with thier $20,000 1450 motor! wait till they leave, follow them to the next open stretch of pavement or twistie and blow thier freakin doors off!! They'll have a little more respect the next time. | ||
| Snotrocket |
Gravedigger, Good one! | ||
| Rick_A |
Despite what's been said here...S3's have the same heart as all Buells...only a bit plusher. The only major differences are being more softly sprung and extreneaous things (bodywork/bars/instruments/etc). That said my 'pre Thunderstorm S1's motor is mostly stock and the bike is basically (almost) stripped to the bone. I can keep up with most anything up to about 110 or so. That's with the throttle to the stop and powershifting all the way. I've surprised a few people. My riding buddies all think it's a beast. Someday she'll be ported...and will realize her true potential...and one day when I hit a track school I'll do the same. | ||
| Uwgriz |
Using the tire size of the Firebolt (Buell's web page took down the specs on the 2002s and my S3's in the parking lot and I don't feel like going to look), if the bike is traveling at 50mph and the bike puts out Aaron's proposed 282 ft-lbs of torque when someone wacks the throttle, that equates to 36.4 RWHP - not unreasonable by any means. HP = torque (ft-lbs) x speed (radians/sec) / 550 (ft-lbs/sec to horsepower conversion) Firebolt tire @ 50 mph ~ 677 rpm ~ 71 radians/sec so 282 ft-lbs x 71 rad/sec / 550 = 36.4 HP | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Then you haven't been looking very hard. There are plenty of dyno charts showing F4, 6R, R6 and R600's with 100-105 rwhp (slipon exhaust only). Face it, all things being equal, a F4, 6R, R6 or R600 is faster than your S3. Does that make your bike bad? No. Your trying to compare apples to oranges - save the effort and just enjoy your bike; it will save your sanity as well. Neil Garretson X0.5 |
