| Author | Message | ||
     Elvis |
Okay, with just over two weeks left until the dealer show, I think it's time for some serious discussion/speculation/rumor mongering. I've got three topics: 1. What do you want to see from Buell and or Harley Davidson? 2. What do you expect to see from Buell and or Harley Davidson (wild rumors and anonymous inside info. encouraged)? 3. Who's going to be at the show with a digital camera and laptop all set to post photos? I'll start. 1. I'd like to see something very similar to the Kosco race bike with an all new, 750 cc V-Twin that is lighter than the current engine and capable of approximately 100 RWHP with a funky electronic valve actuation system the likes of which have never before been seen. From Harley I'd like to see something like the V-Rod based V-Max artists conception that has been floating around. 2. I expect we'll see an M2/X1 styled version of the firebolt. Tube handle-bars, tiny fairing, traditional saddle, more upright riding position, possibly longer wheelbase, but otherwise similar dimensions to the XB9R with the same engine and no increase in displacement. From Harley I'm expecting the re-designed sportster using the Buell engine. Styling between traditional models and V-Rod. I don't expect any new V-Rod variations this year (but I hope I'm wrong). There will probably be some special 100th anniversary paint schemes. 3. I won't be there. | ||
| M2cyclone00 |
1 & 2 are essentially the same for me. I expect & want to see an M2 style Firebolt as the photos posted in the Quick board indicate, with the same engine, wheelbase, brakes, etc., as the Firebolt. I think it will be the same displacement, not a longer stroke version. I expect & want to see a Sportster with some of the features found on the Firebolt, same rocker boxs, oil jets for pistons, oil cooler. I believe they will still use chrome pushrod tubes & the probably the same or very similar looking frame. Maybe, we will see rubber mounted engines in the Sportsters? I don't think we will see significant changes to external appearances except for something to indicate the 100th anniversary. They may even keep the 883 displacement due to it's heritage. But, maybe this will be the last year. I would like to see a Sportster with the same bore & stroke as the Firebolt, but with heads designed for lower rpm torque. I think 2003 may be the last year for the 883, then we may only have one displacement (984?). Hopefully, they will keep the trap door in the cases, but that will probably go the way of the Blast & Firebolt too. Whatever they have, I'm anxiously waiting. Dave | ||
| Spiderman |
Same with the Buells,ie X1M2 Firebolt But H-D will introduce a Touring model V-rod bassically an Ultra Classic but watter cooled. I have all ready seen the 03 P3 the grafics are awsome no other changes physically on the bike. We just had two delivered today. | ||
| Jscott |
Hi all first time poster! 1. I'm pretty much with The King on this one. I'd like to see a firebolt variant with the full race style fairings and front fender, 6 speed, watercooled 4 stroke 600 cc and 1000cc square four. That way I'd have someone to cheer for on race day in supersport and superbike. I'd even like to see a Blast with 17" wheels, 600cc single, with some real handlebars and footpegs. As for Harley ditto with Elvis a v-max killer. 2. ditto | ||
| Elvis |
Spiderman, That's very interesting regarding the touring V-Rod. Is that known fact, speculation or wishful thinking? I think it would be pretty exciting if they do go that route. | ||
| Blake |
JScott, Welcome! Hmmm, a square four eh? The original Buell engine configuration. I might be interested in that. | ||
| Pilot |
What ever they display I will not be ordering one until they can give me a firm date for delivery.I and a few others are still waiting for our XB9R'S to be delivered.(deposit placed 31st July 2001)I remember seeing an advertisement showing Christmas as a possible date so I figured February/March and the rest is history.What looks like happening is that the bike I ordered will be superceded before I get it.Also the colour I ordered is not what I will be receiving.Worth the Wait takes on a whole new meaning.Come on Guys either label it as concept bike or make sure it is ready to roll.I had better get good news on Tuesday . | ||
| Elvis |
On the topic of crazy engine speculation, how about a transversely mounted inline four to maintain the narrow profile of the V-Twin? Go a step farther and stand that engine up on it's end so the cylinders are stacked on top of each other to maintain the short wheelbase. Hey, maybe that's the real reason behind the fuel-in-frame design. Is that far enough outside the box for everyone? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Yeah, but it was WATERCOOLED and a 2 STROKE. You'd bail, right  Seriously, that would be the coolest if HD/Buell would come out with a four stroke version of the Barton Square Four engine that was in the original RW750. Everybody would be happy, Buell would have their own "Unique" and "Modern" engine, which they could sell alongside the aircooled models. | ||
| Spiderman |
Elvis, There has allways been takl of that, ever sience the rumor got out about water cooled bikes. And all My predictions me and my BRAG group made about the FireBolt, with the exception of a few things like name and displacement. I think it is something that will happen along with the M2 X1 Firebolt. | ||
| Blake |
Two stroke. Eeeewwwww - yuuuuuckkk. A square four would need to be liquid cooled though I'd think. I'd still be psyched about an engine like that.  | ||
| Elvis |
Anyone have any dimensions on the old square four? I'm curious how something like that would fit in the current frame. I'm also curious how the weight and power of a 750 cc, four stroke water cooled square four (including radiator and fluids) would compare to the current engine. Has such a thing ever existed? If not, anyone have an educated guess? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
  Pictures Courtesy of Dave Gess. | ||
| Blake |
One of my favorite things about the RW's engine... two counter-rotating crankshafts cancel out all gyroscopic action of the engine. I imagine that at 18 grand a Duc V-4 engine is a pretty tough gyro to get leaned over. | ||
| Elvis |
Wow! Thanks José (and Dave). That things tiny compared to the current engine. Here's an idea: Put something like this in and put a removable hard bag where the airbox currently is. | ||
| Blake |
Elvis, I is only a 750, and it is a two stroke. | ||
| Elvis |
Blake, I have no interest in a two-stroke (though some people have suggested the possibility). Changing a two stroke design to a four stroke should not (based on my admittedly limited knowledge) significantly change the shape. You would obviously need different valve design, but either a two stroke or four stroke has pistons, crankshafts etc. going through complete movements. Back in the 60's-70's I seem to remember several two stroke / four stroke twins that had very similar layouts, but obviuosly had differences in power delivery characteristics. As for the 750 cc diplacement, this is my perfect displacement (for an efficient engine). I'm not looking to compete on the superbike circuit. A well designed 750 should be able to produce power in the 100 range. With the firebolt's chasis, much more power than this would be overdoing it. Based on what we've been seeing, the firebolt has been running with the 600's. The right engine could blow away the 600's, and, if the weight is kept down, we could look at the possibility of running with the 1000's even with lower HP. We'll give them the straights and crush them in the twisties. I would much rather hear people say "wow, this is a 750 but it runs with the 1000's" than "well you have to allow it to have twice the displacement of it's competitors since it is an air-cooled pushrod engine". I'm not saying Buell has to do this or I'll go to a different brand or anything like that. I just think it is an interesting topic for conversation baed on Erik's hint (posted on the other board) that he will probably offer a water cooled engine at some point, and I think a water-cooled design similar to this offers much more potential than the VRSC engine. | ||
| Rebelgtp |
i'm guessing no one has any specific details on that engine? bore stroke, dimensions? have something i need to run by someone. any ideas where i can find lay outs for square 4s? ok the gears are grinding away here....god my friend just had to tell me has access to all the equiptment to build an engine from scratch... | ||
| Paulinoz |
Changing a two stroke design to a four stroke should not (based on my admittedly limited knowledge) significantly change the shape. You would obviously need different valve design, but either a two stroke or four stroke has pistons, crankshafts etc. You dont need different valves you need valves. If memory serves me well (DT250 many years ago) a 2 stroke has ports not valves. Therfor you need a head with valves, a means to open and shut the valves, hence you need a cam, the cam has to turn so you need a cam drive train add that to the above motor and you have an Ariel Square four or somthing similar. But it will be bigger and heavier. | ||
| Blake |
One word... GSXR750. My point is that if I wanted a super high revving 750, they are already out there and for cheap. I do NOT want a motorcycle engine that needs to be revved over 10 grand to get into the really fun powerband. I hate that high revving screaming crap, it stresses me out just imagining an engine spinning at such speeds. Make the square four a 1000cc and we can skip the turbine like revs and keep my nerves intact. | ||
| Jscott |
Wow, I'm glad I got this square four topic going, it seems to have sparked an interest in an engine configuration possibility that is probably close to Erik's heart also. I truly believe his use of the current harley motor was out of neccesity and availability, not because it was the idea motor for him. The barton was just at the begining stages of development when the formula one series got eliminated, who knows what we would be riding on if it wasn't. I'm all for the square four!! | ||
| Blacksix |
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| Elvis |
Thanks Paulinoz for the input. I am hoping that there is enough space that cams would fit and not force the engine to become much heavier than the current one. That's one of the reasons I am in favor of a 750 over a 1000, I don't want to see the weight increase if at all possible. I think Ariel was known for their square fours though I think they were air cooled. Does anyone know if they were four strokes and if so, what kind of cams they used? I think the square four concept has some real advantages over other potential layouts. Before the topic came up, I had suggested a transversely mounted inline four, but I think that would be difficult to squeeze into the current frame. I have never liked traditional inline fours because they tend to hang out too far (though recent models have been doing a good job of compacting them) and can cause problems with the serious lean angles that the firebolt does so well. As a kid, I always loved the thinness of the Ducati layout. It seems that a square four could potentially fit in the firebolt frame (or a slightly modified variation). I wonder if Erik is somewhere reading this, and if so, I wonder if he is cringing at our ignorance or smiling quietly to himself. | ||
| Jima4media |
I'd like to see Buell announce a chain of Buell owned stores, like the ones that Apple Computer is doing. These would be based on the Modesto Model of running a Buell dealership properly. We can clearly see that the Buell in a Harley dealership is NOT working, with a very few exceptions. I have recently heard of three more big dealers that are getting out of the Buell business, which is disturbing to me. One of these dealers is where I bought my first Buell. I don't want to frequent a Harley shop where I have to wait in line for two weeks to have a simple problem looked at, only to have the work done poorly, and charged an excessive amount. And I don't want to have to ride 90 miles to get to a good dealer. I know to some of you, having a great dealer within 90 miles would sound like heaven. And I don't want to go looking for a Firebolt, only to have a Harley dealer try to sell me a $20,000 V-Rod. Lets fix this dealer problem! That is what needs to be talked about at the dealer show. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Hootowl |
They haven't admitted their problem yet. Hi, my name's Bob, and I'm a shitty dealer. HI BOB! | ||
| Elvis |
Is anyone going to be at the show to post a report and/or photos? | ||
| Court |
It is alarming to see dealers who were formerly "gung ho" about Buell and were Pegasus Club memebers who have worn tired of "dealing with it". Take a look at the Buell dealers who were "Top Drawer" when the 1997 S-1 came out and look at them now. I hope, with what appears to be the engineering and QC issues firmly in hand and on the run, that Buell deals with the dealer situation. The solutions are far more complex than we make them here. Harley-Davidson OWNS Buell. Harley-Davidson owns one of the most powerful dealership and marketing organizations in the world. I, were I an HD exec, would have little interest in reinventing the wheel when all that needs to be done is to make it roll. Someone is going to have to move beyond emotion and the "throw the bastards out" mentality and THINK about a solution. The excellent reputations of some of the dealers who have cooled on Buell make it difficult to summarily hang the dealers out. When finding a solution is more important than a victim, problems will be solved and opportunities will flourish. I digress into one of my favorite tales for consulting with businessi..... A young kid sees the wealthy old man step from the limo, follows him in his office, burst in the door and the wealthy old man asks..."what do you want?" to which the kid replies "I want to be rich, just like you. I want to be driven in a limo and lead the good life". The old man grabs the kids head, plunges it in the nearby aquarium and counts to 10 before he jerks the doused kid from the water. "whaddya want NOW?" "I want to command power and capitl, be a captain of industry, have folks envy and respect me, have women throw themselves at me and the world admire me". The old man stuffs his head back in for another 45 seconds. "whaddya want NOW?" Comes the waterlogged reply..."I want airplanes, ski lodges and lots of Buells". The old man stuffs his head back in the water, but this time holds it for 5 minutes. He pulls it out and asks..."okay...whaddya want NOW?" To which the kid screams.."A BREATH OF AIR". The old man replies...."when you want to succeed as bad as you wanted that breath of air, it'll happen". We tend to act most vigorously on that which is important to us. Court | ||
| Sarodude |
Court- You never cease to amaze me with your optimism and solution orientedness. However, I still say "THROW THE BASTARDS OUT!" just kidding - sort of Like most other things, people who've only seen things from the outside can't fathom the complexities of running things from the inside. We only see that which negatively impacts us and usually can't look more than 1 or 2 turns down the road to see how our actions would pan out in the long run. -Saro | ||
| Tripper |
Hey man, you snuck a trip in to Topeka, I can tell by the words above. I too am worried. Without them (and Blakes magic playground) this past 2 years would have been a nightmare. Which is why a certain Triple Black Busa has caught my eye. At 24,000 miles the S1 needs a spare bike so I can hang it from my ceiling and stare at it. | ||
| Court |
Mother's Day. It was enough to make me cry. The most awarded Harley-Davidson store in the WORLD, the folks who TAUGHT Modesto how to, well, BE MODESTO, the folks who stock (and still do) parts for EVERY Buell made going back to 1990, one of the First "Rider's Edge" participants, ad infinitum, the folks who were flown to Juneau monthly to record the oral history of "how'd you do it" and to M.I.T. to help craft a system that would put Buell on the leading edge of technology..... Anyway...you know the rest. |
