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Phillyblast
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:24 am: | 
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I still don't get the fascination with putting a V-Rod motor in a Firebolt. From a weight and size standpoint, it doesn't make any sense to my feeble brain. From a purely aesthetic viewpoint, it would, IMHO, suck. Hang a big-ass radiator on the front of that little bike? And for what perceived benefit? I found an interview with EB hisself, talking about the Blast when it was introduced - about halfway down the page there's a lengthy discussion about watercooling vs. aircooling that makes me think, from Erik's answers, that the Water Buffalo motor won't see it's way into a Buell chassis any time soon.
http://www.gazette9.com/buells.html/talking.htm
If, in fact, all Buells become water cooled in the future, I hope I can pick up an "outdated" Firebolt at close-out prices. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:46 am: |
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I agree that the likelyhood of a V-rod motor used in a Buell is very low. It is more realistic to expect a variant in the HD lineup. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:58 am: |
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Blake,
Quote:Are you infering that my Cyclone is a bad handling sportbike?
No what I'm saying is that the Blast handles better than an M2, and if you were going to be true to your words (you prefer Handling over HP) you would have a Blast instead. But engine power is important at some level, isn't it?
On the Racing deal, I was the first to publicly CONGRATULATE Erik Wood/Rich/Kosco/HD/Buell Racing/Erik Buell in the GDB on last Monday. They won the race, no ifs ands or buts.
However, like in Pro Thunder, they are not racing what they sell, and they are not selling what they race with. That's my only problem with it. Hopefully this will change.
_________________________________________________________________________
Elvis,
That's pretty close to what I want, thanks for crystalizing my thoughts. However, there is an additional #4 which is the following
4. It has to be made in the USA.
I want Buell to be sucessful, but in my opinion, their current approach won't get them past the "niche/cult" bike status. They need something to attract the crowd that is currently buying imports. The irony is that the VROD is doing a better job of that than the Firebolt is.
The Vrod's cost, like José M. mentioned earlier, is definetly an troublesome issue for HD/Buell, but so far VROD sales don't seem to be affected, they sell every one of them.
There's a vocal MINORITY out there that wants things to stay "cult like" and are still upset that Erik "sold out" to "the Dark Side" (HD).
HD sells 50,000 Sportsters a year. I own one, they suck in many ways, but they sell.
According to the 2001 HD Annual Report, Buell shipped 9,925 units worldwide. Thirty five percent (35%), or 3,473 units of these were Blasts. This is interesting because Blasts were 51% of the total 10,189 units shipped in 2000, or 5,196 units. Not a good trend.
HD will build and SELL every one of the close to 10,000 VRODS they produced. Some at ridiculous dealer markups.
The way things are going, Harley Davidson will hit my target before Buell will. Which means my next bike will be a Harley-Davidson, and I'll have to sell my XL1200S Sportster to afford it.
I won't sell the Buell because I can't give it away or get what I can get for my 1998 Sporty even though it has 38,000 miles. Plus I like all the cool people I ride with at DCBRAG!
My biggest dilema then will be which bike to take to the DCBRAG/BRAG events......
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Anon,
Honda sales in the tank? Yeah so are Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki and everybody else, including Buell. It's called a downturn in the economy, people have less disposable income, so things like bikes are the first things to be crossed off from their lists of things to get.
HD doesn't seem to be affected as much, however.
I have ridden a Firebolt, a Blast, an M2, an X1, an S3 and a VROD, all on the same day, at Myrtle Beach. The Firebolt handles great (but not as good as the Blast!!!!) and is the best Buell ever made, period, but it's not as fast or refined as the VROD.
I'm sorry, that's my opinion, and apparently I'm not the only one that feels that way, and it's just as valid as Court's OPINION that the M2 is the Best Bike ever made, and he's never PROVED it.
My PROOF will be the Domestic Dirt/Street 2002 sales numbers as published in Motorcycle Consumer News. I'll file away this:
To compare with this years number when they come out to see what "the Motorcycling Buying Public" decided. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:59 am: |
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From the HD 2002 First quarter report
 |
Shot_Gun
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:10 am: |
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My question is: Would anybody have bought their Buell with any other engine in it? If I wanted another engine I would have bought a Suzuki or a Honda ect. I bought my S2 because is Different in every sense. The Firebolt is a good handeling and has decent power. Is it neck breaking? No but decent. I guess I'm old fashion.
SG |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:53 am: |
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The Sportster motor is a fine powerplant. In fact, until the introduction of the TC88 is was Harley's best design. I disliked its remnants of 50's styling like the empty generator gear area, cam skirt and oval primary, all of which added weight and did not enhance power. The Firebolt/Blast case group has corrected many of these vestiges of yesteryear plus modernized oiling and breathing functions. Rumor has it HD will use a version of this new motor in the Sportster for 2003.
Buell's uniqueness stemmed from the use of this motor in an unconventional sportier chassis that also dampened vibration. The introduction of the S2 and S1 with a little more HP made these bikes irresistible to HD enthusiasts that loved the old technology but wanted a more agile bike.
Its been 8 years now since the miracle of the HD/Buell relationship that gave us these fabulous bikes. All technology needs improvement and even HD has realized this and released a water cooled, 4 valve, DOHC motor that has captivated the cruiser industry.
Buell needs to do the same... |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:55 am: |
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"Isn't a successful business model designed to give people what they WANT, not necessarily what they NEED?"
No, a successful business model is one developed to give the business owners and investors what they want and need out of the business regardless of the product or customer demands. If they can also happen to meet customer demands, expectations, and desires, and end up with a revolutionary and successful product then so much the better.
Speaking of this though, I sometimes wonder if H-D or Buell have an exit plan, as is highly recommended by many well placed business advisors. A company shouldn't plan to fail, but should know when to bail. Buell, in my opinion, has known when to regroup and redirect. The next month and the next 14 months should be veeeeeeeeeeeery interesting.
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Hootowl,
Bummer. Guess I'll have to make due with the rummage sale splitting maul that only looks like it could have been owned by Lincoln.
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"Right now Honda is seriously in the toilet in sales..."
Which begs one to question how all companies bike sales are doing as a whole? Anybody up for a 1st or 2nd quarter review of financial statements of the motorcycle manufacturers? Somehow I think it's slow for everyone, especially since motorcycle purchases usually come from people's discretionary funds, after rent, after food, after braces for the kids teeth, after the car payment, after tuition, after ......, you get my point.
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"I still don't get the fascination with putting a V-Rod motor in a Firebolt. From a weight and size standpoint, it doesn't make any sense ..."
The people who say they want the V-Rod engine are only looking at the power, call it the Tim Allen Grunt Factor if you will. They typically do not consider the weight, physical size, radiator placement, they only see the apparent horsepower. The old "I want an 8 second 1/4 mile drag bike that also handles on The Dragon and can also win BattleTrax events and can also hit 200mph at Bonneville" requests. But in reality we can't have a Power Rangers bike that does everything. But still customers will continue to demand and request the unreasonable, and companies will try to see what they can do. But the end product, while nice, still will not satisfy everyone.
I, for instance, want a PDA sized computer that's waterproof, has an 80gig hard drive, a full size keyboard, and a built in modem and cell phone, and it also must run for at least 40 hours of hard use without a recharge. Oh, it also has to accept any semi-standard media storage device from a 3.5" floppy to a CD to any of several digi-camera memory cards. And finally, it must have a full size screen. Ain't gonna happen until holographic technology gets farther along, or at least until virtual reality interfaces are more realistic. Supergloves with an eyeset that also fits in your shirtpocket. Don't ask for much, do I.
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A few reasons H-D's seem to buck the current trend in lower sales volumes is 1: Pre-ordered bikes causing a slide in the measurement scale, 2: A perceived belief that H-D's hold their value and are often considered an "investment" by the buyers. It would be interesting to see the "orders received" for the last 90 days compared against the same timeframe last year. A 3rd factor affecting the H-D numbers is the 100th anniversary coming up next year. There are many first time buyers buying bikes specifically to take part in that event.
All of the above carries a huge IMHO attached.
YMMV and all that stuff.
Batter up! |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 10:26 am: |
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All I can say is, It may not have the most HP but I have never ridden a bike that accelerates faster out of turns than my Firebolt. It would chew up my M2 and spit it out. Why? 'Cause I feel confident whacking the throttle open with the bike leaned way over (at least by my standards, i am not a racer rick).
I know that many bikes will out accelerate it BUT will they be able to start accelerating anywhere near as soon as i do? NOPE!
That why Burnsie couldn't catch one even riding an RC51.
All this talk about needing more HP is Ok but MY GOD on a twisty road the thing runs with an RC51. How much faster than that do you want to go?
If Buell can add HP WITHOUT ADDING ANY WEIGHT go for it but do not make the bike any heavier. Make it lighter if at all possible.
I wonder what the thing would weigh if all the plastic was replaced with carbon fiber?
Dave |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 10:36 am: |
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I would love to see first quarter sales numbers for evertone. Bring 'em on.
Honda's growth in 2001 is amasing. Over 30 percent. Even a normal year will feel bad after that.
What I see out there is that at least Kawasaki is suffering enough to be offering excellant financing incentives. Honda has some but when you read the small print they are not really giving you much of anything so they can't be feeling too much heat. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 10:50 am: |
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The Firebolt's ability to perform in the curves is not being questioned. Its geometry attests to its inevitable superb handling. All designs suffer from compromises in order to ehance a specific area. The need for more power comes along during all other circumstances when you are not entering or exiting a curve. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:00 am: |
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More power is fine just don't mess up the rest of the bike.
Besides, I havn't even gotten into the powerband yet and the thing is very very fast. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:03 am: |
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"I wonder what the thing would weigh if all the plastic was replaced with carbon fiber? "
I got to hold the race bodywork main piece, one easy finger is all it took. That thing is light. I'd venture that if you weighed all the stock XB plastic, you could probably cut that in at least half or better weightwise. I'll speculate that you could cut 20 pounds off a stock public XB9R with swapping carbon and other parts. Don't know if it'd be worth it on a street bike though. But with a Colnago bicycle at home, who am I to say what something is worth.
Speaking of which, time for a visit. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:30 am: |
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I just think Buell should introduce a bike like the Kosco Firebolt that Eric Wood raced at Loudon.
Full fairing, chain drive, and 104HP at the rear wheel. Dual brakes optional for racing.
Then people wouldn't be wishy-washy about this great handling 75HP bike.
Jim
X-2.5 |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:35 am: |
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"I wonder what the thing would weigh if all the plastic was replaced with carbon fiber? "
Ahhh the Carbon Fiber diet. If a person would stop eating cheeseburgers for a year, and eat cellery and carrot sticks it would be a lot cheaper than buying carbon fiber to replace plastic.
My .02, any you probably won't see me doing this myself BTW. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:41 am: |
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Jose` A BLAST hadle Better than a Firebolt i sure hope you are talking about low speed handeling. Cause i can't lean a Blast over as far as i can a Firebolt in a 50mph turn. I rode the XB9R all the way to the edge of the tires with out even touching the foot peg at over 50 mph blast 30mph SCAAAPPPEEEE!! |
Peyote
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:53 am: |
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MikeJ,
You act as if people are attacking Buell's new xb lineup. I think they have the best bikes out with the best air-cooled powerplant.
---------mikeJ quote------: The people who say they want the V-Rod engine are only looking at the power, call it the Tim Allen Grunt Factor if you will. They typically do not consider the weight, physical size, radiator placement, they only see the apparent horsepower. The old "I want an 8 second 1/4 mile drag bike that also handles on The Dragon and can also win BattleTrax events and can also hit 200mph at Bonneville" requests.
-------end quote---------
I'm sorry you feel this way but this is a defensive posture that many buell zealots feel. Yes many people feel that way, but many don't. What has Erik Buell done in the past with Buell engines? He's lightened the engine and pulled a lot more horsepower. Why can't you imagine this with the VRSC engine? I think it's probable, but either way it doesn't make since to have a product line without water-cooled engines. From what I understand, the emmission standards are gonna' put air-cooled bikes painted in a corner. It doesn't matter to me whether it's the VRSC engine or not, but the VR1000 engine is quite similar and I don't here you name-calling it like you do the overweight VRSC.
Let me clarify something, I'm not bashing. I bought the Firebolt and love it for it's abilities & doubt I'll ever sell it. Air-cooled was the best thing for it. But, let's not be ignorant on the matter. Performance is a big thing even with American Sportbikes. It's just too easy to add water-cooling & get tons more horsepower and heat stability. How can you go wrong adding another product line alongside it's air-cooled cousins? One more year of R&D with modifying the VRSC engine for the XB frame should do it. You'd be kidding yourself if you thought it wouldn't sell.
As far as your bonneville comment, I live in the midwest with a lot of grid-pattern streets. My firebolt does fine on it but you make it sound like we all live in the canyons or on deal's gap or something. Call me ignorant, but is it too much to want both a canyon carver and a high(er)-power bike from Buell? I will hold out as long as is needed for this because of my Firebolt. But Buell shouldn't rest on their laurels about it's success of the Firebolt. That frame could do wonders to a water-cooled engine.
Oh, and your dreamed up PDA rant is not relative. Water-cooling is today, not some pipe dream. And it's been around for a long time and it brings more HP and HD has one that could easily lose weight on. Last I heard, no one makes or even wants to make a PDA as you described. I'll place my bets on a water-cooled Buell over your PDA anyday.
Now that HD has water-cooling, BMC is the only big company left that only makes air-cooled bikes. What is more probable: BMC & water-cooling or a sarcastically stated PDA that no one wants? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:28 pm: |
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Peyote,
no no no no no, not what I'm saying, not really. I guess in a nutshell what I'm saying is that "you can't please everybody so you've got to please yourself", or in this case your target market. The fact that many company people are now buying an XB says a lot. I can clearly see the delineation between buyers and potential buyers, and I can somewhat understand the factory viewpoint as well. The best way to describe this delineation is to listen to two California riders talk about the XB9R (Rex and Vik), who both are looking for something that the XB9R doesn't quite yet deliver, but are somewhat divergent from each other's desires, and yet somewhat in sync as well.
And I wouldn't call myself a Buell zealot, I just happen to like them, as I also like a lot of other bikes and brands.
Also, I too currently live in the midwest with lots of straight roads, and where the curves are far and few between. But I also am fully aware that 100+mph in many regions will tag you with a felony conviction, so I refer you to the MO articles on how much power is enough for a street bike.
The difference in power just between my S2 and M2 is a lot, the M2 is much more of a hotrod than the S2, but either will get me a major ticket on the street if I get carried away. Even so I'm looking at putting my Wileyco exhaust back on the M2 to regain a bit of hp that I may want/need for a few events and situations that are on the horizon. Don't really need more, but will utilize what I can gain if I can.
My point is that a lot of riders would like or do demand a do-it-all bike, with way more power than they really need (but that is their choice to make and define). I personally would love to have a 120hp at the rear wheel S2 or M2, but I still wouldn't go much faster than I currently do on the street, though I may get up to speed a little/lot quicker. But that's not the point.
As far as Harley-ish bikes go, I really like the FXRs. And if I got a V-Rod one of the first things I'd do to it is change out that front headlight, the handlebar mounts, and dump that exhaust system. I'm also not one to go around lowering a bike, if anything I'd raise one some to improve clearance as I would have done to a slammed FXR hotrod I looked at a year or so ago (great bike as it was until you wanted to corner or go over a speedbump in a parking lot). But to each their own. I also like drag-style bikes, really like the old board-track racers, really like flat track bikes, and even like the looks of the RR1200, and believe it or not I also like the basic stock RoadKing H-D.
"Why can't you imagine this with the VRSC engine?"
Actually, I can, and I wasn't suggesting they not try to shoehorn that engine into a more corner-oriented framework. But I think something better is in the works. I don't know if it will be liquid or other fluid cooled (who knows, maybe they are working on a freon cooled refridgerated bike utilizing cooling chips as found in some camper-oriented ice boxes), but whatever it is I think it will be as different from the XB and V-Rod engines as the V-Rod engine is from the Twin-cam B's.
Carry on. I really think we are on the same page in this duscussion.
Time for me to go play now, working a half-day is nice on Fridays when the weather is good.
MikeJ (gone ridin' for the afternoon)
ps, I still want that PDA-sized laptop. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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Hey guys, don't hold your breath on any rumored V-Rod "sport fighter." (Well, on second thought, Jose, go ahead and hold it.) And keep in mind that any Revolution-powered Buell would have to priced similarly to Harley's V-Rod -- more than 75 percent more than a Firebolt.
The Firebolt, with the current engine, is a near perfect backroad bike, the machine Ducati's 900SS should have evolved into, but didn't. It may not be ideal for locations where you have to ride 30 miles to find a turn, but just wait a couple of weeks . . . there'll be another answer for those places. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 03:38 pm: |
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Quote:"I wonder what the thing would weigh if all the plastic was replaced with carbon fiber?"
From the XB9R review in the August Motorcyclist:
Quote:The motor weighs in at 169 pounds dry, complete with oil coolers and attendant mounting hardware - 41 pounds lighter than the 1200 Sportster Mill, but still 46 POUNDS up on KTM's new superlight V-twin.
Can you save 46 pounds (minus the radiator/fluid on the KTM) by switching from plastic to carbon fiber? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:10 pm: |
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Why does everyone assume that it takes water-cooling to get a higher level of performance from an engine?
Are you sure?
Suppose it's possible to get class-competitive power without that junk. Wouldn't you rather have that? |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:28 pm: |
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Aaron,
I'll take mine air cooled. If it comes from the factory with just 76hp, so be it. Wes can give me what I want out of it
My 90 ft lbs of torque M2 makes me smile every time I ride it.
Dave |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:46 pm: |
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I don't think it's the air cooling that holds back the power. It's the hydraulic valves and single crankpin. You just can't rev it. RPM = HP. Look where those other bikes are making power. If you limited them (OK, most of them) to 6K RPM, they wouldn't be making those numbers. In the end though buell may have to go with water cooling. The 2006 emission standards are a bitch. I think that's the only reason HD developed a water cooled engine. They have to wean their customers off of the old engines now, so when the end comes, HD will still have a customer base. I don't know, maybe they can still meet emissions. The combustion chamber temp on an air cooled motor can stand to be hotter than on a water cooled one, so you'd think that the fuel would burn more completely. But if that was the case, why are the HD/Buells tuned so lean from the factory? Why is there a big hole in the powerband on the X1/S3 that a not street legal ecm fixes? It's all EPA. I'm rambling. I'll stop. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 05:06 pm: |
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Emissions? Erik says the Blast's emissions are less than 30% of what CARB allows. |
Peyote
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 05:41 pm: |
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aaron,
your high. The only air-cooled that can match a gixxer is the feuling v-triple & it weighs a ton and if you tried to turn sharp at any speed, you'd peel your skin off.
hoot & aaron,
RPM's also equal higher temps, don't they? water-cooling lowers those temps so you can rev higher.
aaron,
as far as emmissions, I don't really care about this. I've just heard future emmissions for cal is supposed to be tough for air-cooled bikes. I don't understand it, so I won't argue. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:10 pm: |
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So what you're saying is that you can't make competitive power without water cooling?
You're sure of that?
More displacement isn't another path to more power?
And I guess you don't agree with Erik's view that air-cooling is more effective at removing heat?
PS: the gixxer's are all multi's ... apples to oranges ... those charts are very competitive amongst twins. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:24 pm: |
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Aaron,
So what you're saying is the engines those dyno charts came from will pass CARB?
Vik |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:40 pm: |
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I have no idea, but that's not the point.
Just a few years ago, most people wouldn't have even believed charts like those were doable from these bikes. First time somebody posted a chart in that power range, it was greeted with a lot of skepticism.
The point is think outside the box. What's being done today isn't necessarily the only way to do it. Perhaps there are other paths to big power, they just need to be further developed. Perhaps those paths offer compelling reasons to go with them.
Buell is a company that's always tried to come up with things no one else is doing. Just look at the RR1000, the S1, the XB. It's one of the reasons I'm a fan, they think outside the box. Makes it all the more puzzling to me when I see people asking Buell to be like everyone else.
Keep in mind, these charts were done by a couple of independent shops and a handful of individual owners. Not a motorcycle company with the resources of a staff of engineers.
I'm one of the people asking for more power. But I'd be much more impressed if they can get me there without adding complexity to the product, or doing things that take away from the naked look. Water cooling falls into that category in my view. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 07:47 pm: |
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See, I think you're arguing symantecs. When people argue "Air cooled engines don't makes as much power," I have to agree with them.
Now, hold on, I know you've gotten 150+ horse out of an air cooled engine and other have gotten more, but that's not the norm and if you wanted to go that route,I can post dyno charts of 450+ hp liquid cooled engines of less displacement.
Here's what I think the "spirit" of the argument is: from the factory, liquid cooled bikes make more power. What this means is when I spend my $10,000 dollars on a liquid cooled bike, I get a 150 hp bike that passes emmisions and is reliable. My same money only gets me maybe 100 hp from an air cooled engine.
How much money is in the engines that you posted the dyno charts for? See where I'm going? Sure, you can tweak this and bore out that and pump up this and bolt on that and get to the point of a stock liquid cooled engine, but that's time and money. What happens when you put that same time and money into a liquid cooled engine?
Hey, if they can pump 125 hp out of an air cooled engine AND make it reliable, I'm interested, but not if it costs more. I want it all and I don't think that's too much to ask for. I'm reeeeeaaaal interested in the new KTM... |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:20 pm: |
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AAron:
You are into something there. Larger displacement and twin carbs with somewhat shorter stroke can indeed give us enhaced power levels. Valve train issues might need addressing but 8K rpm 130 HP is very possible. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:22 pm: |
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Wow, I didn't mean to spark all that. The Blast does meet emissions by a good margin. However, it doesn't make that much power, and richening it up makes it run better. I am by no means knocking Buells. I love them, high powered or not. I don't need to go any faster than I already can on the street. Yes, more bangs per fencepost makes more heat, and yes air cooling is more efficient. Like I said, it isn't the air cooling that is limiting (add more fins) it is the valve train and the crankshaft configuration. Hydraulic valves float. There's no way around it. Buell has done some trick nascar stuff with the new motors to push that up a grand or so, but the limit is still there. I don't really care. I like the fact that I don't ever have to adjust them, and like I said before, my X1 has all the power I need. You brag about horsepower, but you drive torque. I'd rather not have to rev the piss out of something to haul ass. I am not suggesting that Buell abandon air cooling, I just don't know how tough these new emission standards are going to be, and I hope they can meet them without making an unmodified bike perform so poorly that the magazines, who rarely do articles on modified Buells (I know of only one), do nothing but continue to give Buell if not outright criticism, then lukewarm praise at best. Look at the Firebolt review. Best bike there, but they still slammed it. I don't give a rat's ass what those people have to say, but a whole lot of people rely on them for advise when making a purchase. If Buell could stay afloat only selling bikes to hard core enthusiasts like myself and some of you, that would be great, but they can't. Not and have any money to do any product development anyway. They have to sell to a broader market. If the 2006 emission legal aircooled bike is a dog, no one will buy it. Yes, a race kit will fix it, but that doesn't sell motorcycles. |
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