| Author |
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Jima4media
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:13 am: | 
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A V-Rod motor in a street sportbike makes more sense than a Firebolt motor in a race bike.
Sure it won a race in a third class competition against 600cc engines, but only when the leader crashed.
You can't build a racing strategy on the off chance that the leaders will fall off their bikes every race. Sooner or later you have to perform.
As a canyon carving sportfighter, the Firebolt makes a lot of sense. As a race bike, the handling is there, but needs some more horsepower to compete.
I really hope that Buell Motorcycle Company sees that and introduces a little more in July.
I'm worried that HD's new 100th anniversary offerings may put Buell in a worse light.
Jim
X-2.5 |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:01 am: |
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Blake/Imonabuss,
Correction!
Yes it was raining during the qualifying this year at Loudon. However, I was under the impression that the AMA qualifying in 2001 was also wet, but it was the RACE that was run in the rain, not the qualifying.
So to correct myself, an AMA Spec 600 is about TWO SECONDS faster around Loudon than a FUSA spec 600 sportbike. "Sportfigher" if your Buell.....
My mistake, sorry.
As far as I know the track layouts were the same. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:10 am: |
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Quote:Rich from Innovative, who built the bike for Kosco's, said that he had just started on developing the bike a couple of weeks before.
Right, he got a stock XB off the showroom floor at his dealer then developed and built the following:
The belly pan
the chain drive with a whole new swingarm
A new shifter arm
A new exhaust
A new ECM
THe carbon fiber air intake/new larger oil cooler.
Funny that bike looks real similar to the one the BUELL FACTORY tested at Daytona this year
 |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:13 am: |
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You want a Real PRIVATEER Firebolt, go to Canada!
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José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 07:28 am: |
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On May 26, 2002, THREE weeks before Loudon, Steve and I spotted this bike inside KOSCO's trailer at the FUSA races at Summit Point, WV.
I spoke to Rich briefly, and he said he had to jump through A BUNCH off hoops before Buell let him have the bike.
Apparently at Loudon this bike's number was changed from Eric Wood's #4 to #106 and was ridden by Don Canet of Cycle World instead.
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Henrik
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 08:40 am: |
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Well, the clip-ons are Woodcraft and not Buell items  Good stuff btw.
Also nice to see Erik hasn't forgotten about aerodynamics - look at that front fender, and compare to the picture of the Canadian Firebolt.
Henrik |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:30 am: |
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José,
Please don't take this the wrong way. I love the photos and info. you post and I hope you keep them coming, but don't you ever work? |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 10:22 am: |
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Hey Ray,
What do you mean? That the Harley only dealer doesn't know beans or that they won't have the parts? Cause things like turn signals wont cross refrence even brake pads. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 10:26 am: |
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From over on Sacborg
Quote:MikeJ,
I agree 100% with your stepchild analogy. I raised the ire of many higher-ups when I posted the Firebolt Delay memo. What came out of it was an admission that the primary focus is on the 100th anniversary party, and not on a positive direction for Buell. I don't blame the guys on the line one bit. I do have certain names that I do blame personally (Erik's NOT one of them), but I will refrain from frying them publicly until my tenure with Ray Mitchell Inc. is terminated.
Word to the MoFoCo spies: You DO NOT want me to leave my job anytime soon.
But on a positive note, I truly believe that I was a catalyst in getting a Buell future direction committee formed. Art is a member of the committee so I will know if shit is getting accomplished or not. Fingers crossed.
--------------------
Danny
95 S2
02 V-Strom
A BUELL FUTURE DIRECTION COMMITTE?????
I guess they got tired of hearing "you should've put the VROD engine in it" at all the International Bike Shows and Demo Ride events...... |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:59 am: |
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All the talk about the V-Rod engine distracts from the real point. Buell and Harley have different goals and philosopies. The V-Rod engine is a Harley engine, big and heavy. While it's nice to think about a more refined engine in the Buell, what I want is not the V-Rod engine, but a refined, light, efficient, powerful engine.
I would like to hope that Erik is not behind the scenes trying to figure ways to shoe-horn the V-Rod engine into his chasis, but rather is drawing up a new engine, from scratch to meet his needs. If Harley gives him the funding he needs and stays out of his way, I think we can set our long term expectations higher than the V-Rod engine. |
Josh
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:15 pm: |
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Hey Ray, I bought my Pontiac Firebird at a Chevy dealer, from a Chevy salesman, it had a Chevy engine, a Chevy transmission, a Chevy drive line, used Mobile-1 oil, was serviced by a Chevy tech, using Chevy parts, was warranted by GM, financed by FirstBank, and insured by StateFarm. I call it a Pontiac and so does the DMZ.
Ray also sez:
S*** ! Go to a Buell dealer and try to buy a set of turn signals or brake pads or anything else that doesn't cross reference with a Sportster. Good f****** luck. You might as well be buying parts for a Mercedes.
My Dealer doesn't stock Mercedes parts (Honda, yes) but they always have brakes pads and turn signals plus sensors, levers etc.
Josh |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:43 pm: |
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Yeah we are tired of hearing 'you shoulda put a V-Rod in it'...but not because it was either possible or the right thing to do!!! |
Peyote
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:01 pm: |
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elvis,
you talk as if Buell is a separate entity. Most of us talk about a lightweight hybrid of the VRSC engine because this is the relationship that Buell has had with HD in past incarnations. Which is to use the engines that can be best suited from HD's shelf and make modifications & slowly evolve hybrids out of them. I don't see HD building a completely new engine just for Buells unless it is some hybrid from there own engines. The R&D would pay for itself quicker (in HD exec's minds) if Buell used a platform spawned from one of their engines currently in use.
But.....I agree that it would be advantageous for buell to build an engine specifically designed for the Buells, but who's to say the engineering spurred originally from the VR1000 work & the VRSC couldn't work for Buells. That's why most talk about this because it's more likely if we as buell owners ever want to have a high-powered engine. It's fun debating about it. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:16 pm: |
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But Buell is its own entity it is owned by Harley but has it's own Pres. and executives. |
Peyote
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:26 pm: |
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semantics aside, they can't pour money into something without the approval of it's 98%-99% shareholder, HD. So if it makes business since to HD then yea Buell will do it. But if, by your definitions, you think that buell being it's own entity can give them the final decisions on going through with what they want (ie. new engine or non-harley engine) without a care to it's shareholders, then I'd like to have the same business relationship with harley. I could do a lot with unlimited investments like that. So, spidey, what was your point again?
Let me say that I want what's best for Buell, so whatever that is they should do it. I just want to see a new updated engine & if buell can get there own engine, that would be even better. I just see HD getting in the way of that. Meanwhile, there's an engine that could be extremely fast and lightweight (once erik buell got a hold of it) and seems ready to be mass produced for Buells consumption. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:38 pm: |
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Anon: DON'T put the V-rod engine into it! That'd ruin it!
(just trying to add some balance)
(but I mean it) |
Peyote
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:46 pm: |
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does anyone find it a little coincidental that harley's V-ROD & buell's Firebolt both have the same concepts on air-intake? I can understand why they went different ways on everything else because one was for weight-loss and other was cosmetics. Funny how with two different engines and styles of bikes but the same result for air-intake. It seems close enough that maybe they might have closer ties in R&D then what might show publicly. I'm just speculating, but I'd like to hear from someone that might be able to throw us a bone. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:50 pm: |
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Peyote,
Your points are all valid, and probably very representative of the HD mindset on the issue, but there are a few points to consider that may give us hope:
1. The firebolt is a very unique, stand-alone bike with very few Harley parts (except for the engine), so the companies really do have unique products even though they are financially bound.
2. In recent history Erik has used and modified Harley engines, but if you really step back, his history has been to buy engines from other manufacurers and incorporate them into his frames. Before Harley bought him out, he bought engines from them. Assuming the development of an engine is too expensive, couldn't he buy an engine from an Italian or Japanese manufacturer? This opens up the possibilities to engines far superior to the VRSC for Buell's goals. Some might argue that Harley would never let him go that route, but it seems to me it would be better for Harley's and Buell's images to go outside and buy the right engine rather than than use Harley's and have everyone look at it as an ancient beast. That can't be good for either companies images.
3. Buell's history of using Harley engines was partly due to the limited resources of an upstart company. Now that Buell's sales are increasing and they are introducing completely new, modern bikes and Harley is coming up with things like the V-Rod, we may be able to hope for some mold-breaking.
I think that most of us realize that reality will likely be that Buell will use the Firebolt engine for at least the next five years. If I'm dreaming, I'd rather dream of the right engine rather than dreaming that they'll plop in a VRSC (probably a slightly more realistic dream but still something that will never happen). |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 05:33 pm: |
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Hey Blake, remember that letter you wrote to Cycle World?
Get ready to write one to Motorcyclist.
 |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 05:38 pm: |
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They're saying basically the same thing Vik, José M, myself and many others are saying.
However our comments get read by maybe 1000 people??? (Blake?)
How many will pick up the August issue of Motorcyclist??? (Anybody know the circulation #'s? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 05:50 pm: |
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H-D's 100th anniversary is going to be interesting on so many levels. Their very future may hang on the morning after. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 05:51 pm: |
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Yeah H-D may be a little pissed if Eric went and bought his engines from Honda, although Harley and Buell does buy there forks from Honda HMMMM. But if Erik does decide to build ohhhh lets say a water cooled V4 i dont think H-D would mind. So you point of H-D yes i know there a big voice and i said that aloooong time ago. But Buell has the authority to make it's own decisions. And saying that they can make all there decisions is like H-D or Buell ignoring EPA laws and producing bikes. |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 08:43 pm: |
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Hey, no fair holding a guy to what he puts in print and posts for the whole world to read and then it won’t go away cuz the archives last almost forever.
I’m sure HD and Buell have different cultures and all but it still looks from the outside to be just one big happy family.
I re-read my post from last night about break pads and turn signals. It was poorly written but I knew what I meant. The basic jest of what I wanted to say is that I don’t have to go to a HD only dealer to get a blank look from the parts guy. My three local Buell dealers are always out of parts (like turn signals and break pads) too. However, they have obscure engine parts that fit (or cross reference to) the Sportster.
Hey, is the August issue of Motorcyclist out and does it have a Firebolt article? How come it’s not in my mailbox yet.
X minus nineteen and counting. Tick, tick, tick, tick..... |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:29 pm: |
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Quote:Yeah we are tired of hearing 'you shoulda put a V-Rod in it'...but not because it was either possible or the right thing to do!!!
That's the point I have been trying to make!!!
That's what the majority of your POTENTIAL AND EXISTING CUSTOMERS are telling you that they WANT! Ask Randy (HD Demo Fleet Manager) to let you read what people have been writing in the comment book at the Demo ride events.
Isn't a successful business model designed to give people what they WANT, not necessarily what they NEED? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
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JQ,
I never give any credence to Mr. Honda-Boehm's opinions. He's been bought off by Honda for a long time. I read his column a few issues ago. He did everything but ejacualate on the new Interceptor. A bike up in weight, up in complexity, and with no more power than the prior model.
You sure seem set on heckling the racing Buells. What gives? Give credit where credit is due. The Buell won in a VERY fair, popular, and well attended national series race. Why is that so hard for you to admit? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:26 pm: |
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 Why don't I have a Blast?
JQ,
Are you infering that my Cyclone is a bad handling sportbike? If so, you would be soooo wrong. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 11:46 pm: |
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All,
I'm sorry, but I must de-list Abraham Lincoln's Axe. Lawyers from his estate have notified me that since it no longer has the original head or handle, nor were the replacement parts aquired from him, I can not call it his axe. They have threatened torture, death and a nasty phone call from eBay if I do not comply. If anyone is still interested, I'll be doing a dutch auction of 1000 units starting at only $39.95. Look for it under "Cheap Ass Wal Mart Axe" |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:55 am: |
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Mitch Boehm is a complete dick. He worked for Honda for years, his wife still works for Honda, and he is as slow as a slug...a total wannabe rider. If it's so far behind the times, then how come it beat every sportbike (including R1 and RC51) that Motorcycle Online threw at it on canyon roads. Believe the guys who can really ride, not Mitch Boehm. The only things that will hurt sales of the Firebolt are articles like Boehm's, and BS opinions like JQ's...not the real performance of the motorcycle. Right now Honda is seriously in the toilet in sales...hugely down in sales this year...that's why they have $29 per month financing now. The last thing they need is for people to recognize there is a world class American sportbike now, as well as world class cruisers. Mitch is absolutely bought off by them...go ride a Firebolt on back roads, and you'll see what I mean. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 03:52 am: |
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José,
You seem to have very clear ideas about what you want in a bike and that's great, but, at some point, you'll have to admit that you aren't really interested in a Buell. Based on your comments over the past few months, I think I have a pretty good idea of what you are looking for, and it simply doesn't match what Buell is trying to produce.
It seems you are looking for (please correct me if I am wrong):
1. A bike that is smooth, comfortable and powerful for highway driving, but still competent on the backroads.
2. A bike that two people can comfortably ride for extended periods.
3. A bike with hard-bag storage and other touring features.
The above goals are very valid and there are many people who would like such a bike. Yamaha, Aprillia, Honda and BMW (to name a few) are marketing bikes that have the above characteristics.
Buell has clearly stated that they would like to make a light bike with low center of gravity, centralized mass, low weight and short wheelbase to achieve uncompromised handling. I agree with them 100% and feel those goals have always been what I look for in a motorcycle.
You don't seem to mind adding engine weight to achieve increased power. Increased engine weight means a stronger, heavier frame. A heavier engine/frame combination means heavier suspension, wheels, brakes etc. You don't mind those modifications, because they don't conflict with your goals.
I, for one, don't want to see Buell's vision diluted just because there are potential customers out there like you. If you ask 100 different people what they are looking for, each will have something different in mind.
I applaud the fact that Buell has set clear goals and focused intently on those goals despite all the noise going around on boards such as this.
You are extremely knowledgeable. You have a clear opinion and I fully support your right to express that opinion, but, for your own mental health, I suggest you take on a Zen philosophy. Accept the fact that Buell will continue to make the bikes they have said they would and rather than fighting that, move on to a different brand if their goals better match your own. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:21 am: |
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Elvis:
Your elocuent and polite comments to JQ's ideas are apreciated. Like you mention Buell's idea of a motorcyle has also begun to move away from my own. After 10 years of not riding when I bought my 1996 S1 it suited me just fine. As I have resharpened my riding skills my need for more power has risen.
With increases in power on the Lightning motor and then the Thunderstorm motor, it was my hope that the next generation powerplant would be one more notch above. I was very disapointed when his did not happen.
In a few months I will retire the old S1 and replace it with something a bit faster. It will likely be from another company, a fact that makes me sad. |
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