| Author |
Message |
    
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:39 pm: | 
|
JM,
That "limited capability" Firebolt nearly beat the world's best (according to CW) middleweight (CBR600F4i) in Cycle World's "World's Best Streetbike" handling competition. The XB9R also recently took a first place in the Honda sponsored FUSA supersport race at Loudon, NH. The FUSA supersport class is limited to no more than 115 RWHP.
As to outperforming your S1, I know the XB9R will. In their stock form don't the '96 S1 and the XB9R have the same stock HP engine? Isn't the the XB9R significantly lighter than an S1? Does the XB9R have superior suspension and handling compared to an S1? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 02:13 pm: |
|
Setta, BuellBob,
Why would I bail if HD started labeling Erik's designs as Harley's? To clarify, I would keep my current Buell, probably always will.  But I would probably not be purchasing any new Buell creations if they were labeled as HD's. Mainly because I want credit given where credit is due. Erik Buell and associates deserve the credit for their designs, not HD.
Also, ever since a woman named Judy Henslee, Trademark Manager - Harley-Davidson Motor Company, Inc., and her management saw fit to choose greed over common consideration and respect, I became and have remained very soured on the likes of corporate HD. It would be hypocritical of me to own a product bearing the name of HD. Until HD changes it's emphasis from greed and heavy handed, overzealous legal maneuvering, I'll remain a big fan of Buell, but soured on HD. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 02:40 pm: |
|
For Sale:
Abraham Lincoln's Axe
Handle replaced in 1905, head replaced in 1973. Other than that, it is original.
At what point did that bike stop being a HD?
When he replaced the frame with an aftermarket one? When he replaced the motor with an aftermarket one? The tank still said HD, but I can put a HD emblem on a Honda. I don't agree with their heavy handedness, they could have contacted him and asked him to relist it before they took direct action with eBay, but I have to side with HD with regards to their right to their trademark.
And yet..
Why are the bikes in the All Harley Drags not even HDs? They don't say anything about that.
Those "Camaros" at the drag strip are roll cages with a big hunk of sort of Camaro looking fiberglass over them with World Products blocks and aftermarket everything under the hood, and yet Chevy doesn't say anything about it. Maybe they figure it won't hurt sales, just like some guy selling his bike on eBay wouldn't hurt sales.
Well, so long from both sides of the fence. |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:26 pm: |
|
Blake,
Very well stated. I couldn't agree more. I still get steamed when someone asks what bike I have then after hearing "A Buell" they respond "Oh, yeah a Harley?"
I correct them and say, "No, a Buell with what a Harley motor should have been".
Usually brings a few comments in return...... 
Brad |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:48 pm: |
|
Waiting for the cops to arrive up in north central Wisc I was talking with a local. He looked at the name and said "that's one of them old brands like Triumph, right?". I said no, only been around since the 1980's. He looked perplexed. I went back to waiting for the police to arrive. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:49 pm: |
|
Blake:
I know you like the XB and are a faithful Buell owner. I have yet to ride the XB but from what I hear its doesn't have much in the engine dept. As to my S1 being outperformed by the XB, that I know, having ridden next to one, it isn't faster off the line or at any speed.
I suppose it can turn sharper than the current tube frame models but turns are the minority of street riding. The fact is that after nearly 7 years of ownership I was expecting something faster, substantially so.
I want to remain a domestic brand owner. I really don't care for jap rockets or fancy Ducs. What I want is a bike that can run with the competition, not defeat it, but stay with it. Blake, I have run behind many a 600 in the north Ga. mountains while I can ride their rear wheels in the curves, the moment the road gets straight I'm "out of the race". |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:58 pm: |
|
Jmartz,
Ride one if you get the chance. Un-escorted is even better. Take your current bike along the same route and note your speed at a few key points. Then ride the 'bolt and note the speed at the same key points. It has a different feel to the power, but I believe that it will stay with the other riders as well as if not better than your current ride. It is tiny though, perceptionally speaking.
Only thing I didn't do on my test ride was to hit the freeway. Wish I had. But then I'm really waiting to test ride the next model.
  |
Psychobueller
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 04:29 pm: |
|
I have a different take on the XB. I think now that there are (supposedly) top speed limits on new bikes, the market focus will shift away from who can go 200 mph to who can carve corners with more precision. I really think that a sharp scalpel like the XB will do really well in the market.
H-D is many things, but stupid is not one of them. I can't believe that they don't know what they're doing with the Buell brand.
Of course, I'd like to see a more powerful bike, but the fact that the XB is FASTER thru the curves than a lot of other great bikes says A LOT. And proves that Erik is right about a lot of things.
And I like having a bike that's not about top speed. There will always be someone faster, or a new model that is faster than yours. Seems kind of unsatisfying to me. I love my Cyclone because it is just plain fun to ride. For me that's enough. I have never gotten off a supersport and thought, "I want that. I want to trade my Buell." I get off them and get back on my Buell, thankful that I have it.
I may be in the minority I understand. There seems to be a lot of people who are not satisfied with their Buells for lots of different reasons, but I love mine. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:00 pm: |
|
JM,
Actually, given the choice between a new S1 and a Firebolt, I'd have a hard time deciding. I prefer the looks of the S1, but I'd love to let Nallin Racing have their way with an XB9R and then get it on the track.
Best to wait until we've ridden an XB9R before we conclude its fate though, don't you think? Sounds like Europe is really digging it. |
Java
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:26 pm: |
|
Just had to weigh-in here on the whole Buell/HD, what's in a name thing. I've got 2 reasons I want Erik's name on that bike. First, as someone already said, Buells sell at MSRP, even here in Atlanta. A plain-jane 883 Sportster (the one that MSRPs at about $6000), costs more than an M2 here, 'cause rednecks will pay anything if it says Harley on the tank. Second is insurance. According to statistics the thing most likley to be stolen in this country, is a wallet or purse. Number TWO on that list is a Harley Davidson motorcycle. I'm shopping insurance right now, while I'm getting together my down payment on a 'bolt. Before they ask for zip code, garaged?, engine size, any of that stuff, the first question is always, "Is it a Harley, or a not-a-Harley?......Make mine a Buell. |
Roadrunr
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:30 pm: |
|
HOOTOWL: HOW MUCH FOR THE AX? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:31 pm: |
|
"...turns are the minority of street riding."
Not on my favorite roads (see list in my profile).
JM, it sounds like you might be more happy with a VROD than a good handling sport bike. And if racing the straights on public roads is your bag, then maybe a GSXR1000, ZX12R, or Hyabusa is for you. Cause ANYTHING less will get left behind on the straights. If that's your criteria for a bike, the choice is pretty simple.
Obviously you put more value in other aspects of motorcycling besides how fast you can go on a long straight. Me too.
Buy what you like, ride how you want. You want to race, take it to the track. I don't tie my ego to the performance of my motorcycle on OR off the track. I ride cause I enjoy it. I most enjoy riding alone. Maybe that says something about me, I dunno. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:44 pm: |
|
"HOOTOWL: HOW MUCH FOR THE AX?"
$13.95 for the head,
$7.95 for the handle,
$12,000 for the documentation linking it to Lincoln.
|
Buellbob
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:00 pm: |
|
Blake
Didn't know about the other stuff. All I was trying to put across was what you said in the last line of your response. Personally I would like to have ywo bikes, one for the days I just feel like cruising and the buell for when I need a little more spice in my ride. Unfortunately thats too big of an expense for me. Erik buell certainly does deserve credit for what he's achieved, the point I was making is Erik opened Harleys eyes to what could be done to their basic design, so they want some of the action. I wont say anymore because I think we're more or less on the same page.
BOB  |
Tricklidz
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:20 pm: |
|
JM.
I have to weigh in here...
You stated above: "Blake, I have run behind many a 600 in the north Ga. mountains while I can ride their rear wheels in the curves, the moment the road gets straight I'm "out of the race".
I think I see the problem:
Track time and practice --will (should) put you so far ahead of the 600's in the curves, that you'll be waiting for them on the "straights".
I ride with many different riders and machines, from "fast" to "not-so fast" (my 97 S3 being in the latter catagory) and when the roads get ultra-twisty, like Deal's Gap, a GOOD rider on a BAD bike should prevail!
Steve
BTW I'm not critizing (sp) anyone's ability here, just stating what I know to be true from over 30yrs of riding. |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:04 pm: |
|
Blake: I agree with Hootowl but I very much respect your opinion concerning Choptops non Harley chopper. I’m behind ya all the way if you want to avoid the HD brand based on you feelings about the way HD treated Choptop on e-Bay. I think we can agree that we just disagree about that issue.
But about your first point “if HD started labeling Erik's designs as Harley's”. Been there, done that. It’s old news. Besides that, EB sold the company. The BMC that you love doesn’t exist anymore. It’s all HD. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:33 pm: |
|
Quote:XB is FASTER thru the curves
No, the RIDER on the XB will be faster through the curves.
Like Tricklidz said, in a world of guardrails, speed limits, oncoming traffic and the like, Rider Skill/risk tolerance will dictate who will win in the turns. Once the road opens up, HP will always win. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:38 pm: |
|
Buell Motorcycles is a long way from being all HD. The relationship is closer, but believe me, Harley and Buell Motorcycles do not share a culture. Hopefully, they will not always share engines.
BTW, how much does anyone expect a V-Rod based streetfighter to weigh, should such a thing appear? I'll bet a wet weight almost 200 pounds heavier than a Firebolt, and a suggested retail price for 2003 $9000 higher than the Bolt's $9995. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:51 pm: |
|
Quote:The XB9R also recently took a first place in the Honda sponsored FUSA supersport race at Loudon, NH. The FUSA supersport class is limited to no more than 115 RWHP.
All true, and I already congratulated Buell for their win.
But let's put FUSA in perspective.
The top qualifying times for the race were as follows:
Click Here to the the original
| Pos | No | Name | Hometown | Bike | Best Laptime | In Lap | MPH | | 1 | 19 | Jeff Wood | Mansfield MA | Suz 600 | 01:27.009 | 10 | 67.028 | | 2 | 21 | Scott Greenwood | Dunbarton NH | Suz 600 | 01:27.572 | 11 | 66.597 | | 3 | 4 | Eric Wood | Mansfield MA | Buell 984 | 01:28.252 | 7 | 66.083 | | 4 | 511 | Tim Bemisderfer | Greencastle PA | Hon 600 | 01:28.979 | 10 | 65.544 | | 5 | 8 | Owen Weichel | Huntington Beach CA | Kaw 600 | 01:29.236 | 13 | 65.355 | | 6 | 14 | Shawn Higbee | Waterford WI | Buell 900 | 01:29.447 | 8 | 65.201 |
The year before, the AMA guys were there. The qualifying results from their 600 class were as follows:
Click here for the original
| Pos. | No. | Best Time | Rider Name | Machine | Laps | Speed (MPH) | Session 1 | Session 2 | Session 3 | Session 4 | | 1 | 32 | 1:12.126 | ERIC BOSTROM | KAW 600 | 1 | 79.860 | NO TIMES | 1:12.126 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | | 2 | 21 | 1:12.592 | JOHN HOPKINS | SUZ 600 | 1 | 79.348 | 1:12.592 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | | 3 | 20 | 1:12.601 | AARON W YATES | SUZ 600 | 1 | 79.338 | NO TIMES | 1:12.601 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | | 4 | 22 | 1:12.865 | TOMMY HAYDEN | YAM 600 | 1 | 79.050 | NO TIMES | 1:12.865 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | | 5 | 131 | 1:12.967 | JOSHUA KURT HAYES | HON 600 | 1 | 78.940 | 1:12.967 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | | 6 | 89 | 1:13.335 | SCOTT A GREENWOOD | SUZ 600 | 1 | 78.544 | 1:13.335 | NO TIMES | NO TIMES | NO TIMES |
So the difference between a FUSA 600 sportbike and an AMA 600 sportbike is about 15 seconds and 12 mph, at least at this track. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 08:54 pm: |
|
Quote:I'll bet a wet weight almost 200 pounds heavier than a Firebolt, and a suggested retail price for 2003 $9000 higher than the Bolt's $9995.
And I'll bet it will still be FASTER than a Buell, and it will have a waiting list at every dealer, while the Buells will be sitting collecting dust, unless they get their own engine (the XB is not it). |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:03 pm: |
|
Quote:JM, it sounds like you might be more happy with a VROD than a good handling sport bike.
Blake, it sounds like you might be more happy with a BLAST than a fast but ill handling sport bike.
Having ridden an XB, an X1, and M2 and a Blast back to back to back to back at Myrtle Beach this year, the Blast is the best handling bike of them all, hands down.
But then I rode the VROD (twice) and I must admit, I got hooked on the power and refinement it provided. I just hate the ergonomics, but that will change:
 |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:21 pm: |
|
X minus twenty and counting. Tick, tick, tick, tick..... |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:46 pm: |
|
JQ,
You are correct. Given the choice between a Blast and a V-Max, I'd take the Blast.
Ray,
"The BMC that you love doesn’t exist anymore. It’s all HD."
Then why do they call it Buell Motor Company? There is a big difference between ownership and merger. Is a Dodge Viper a Mercedes? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:53 pm: |
|
So why don't you have a Blast???? |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:02 pm: |
|
If I bought my Viper at a Mercedes dealer, from a Mercedes salesman, it had a Mercedes engine, a Mercedes transmission, a Mercedes drive line, used Mercedes oil, was serviced by a Mercedes tech, using Mercedes parts, was warranted by Mercedes, financed by Mercedes, and insured by Mercedes I would call it a Mercedes. JMHO, YAMMV |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:02 pm: |
|
JQ,
Were the track layouts and conditions the same? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:49 pm: |
|
If you bought a Viper at a Mercedes shop and all that other stuff you said, but it was conceived by Dodge, designed by Dodge, tested by Dodge, and built by Dodge, it would be a Dodge that utilized Mercedes parts and was sold/serviced by Dodge qualified/trained technicians working at Mercedes dealerships.
Are Buells warrantied by HD?
Oil?... Financing?... Insurance? My Buell uses Mobil-1, was financed by my credit union, and is insured by Progressive.
Is a Triumph sold, serviced, financed, and insured by a HD/Buell dealer a Harley?
My '97 Cyclone uses Ducati controls. Is it a Ducati?
Oh, what about the Blast and Firebolt... HD uses those engines, transmissions, drivelines?
Go to a Harley only dealer. Try to purchase a set of turn signals or brake pads for your Buell.
I'm not saying that Buell separate and independent from HD. I'm saying Buell is it's own entity and VERY distinguishable from HD.
Before Buell was majority owned by HD, Buells utilized HD engines, and drivetrains, where sold and serviced by HD deaerships. Was a 1994 S2 a Harley?
There are stand alone Buell dealerships. We even had one right here in Texas.
Your turn.  |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:51 pm: |
|
Break down,
The Buell Motorcycle Co. is owned bu the Harley-Davidsons Corp. which also owns Harley davidson Motorcycle Co. Both are seprate entities with seprate CEOs, engineers,etc. Buell is free to make its own changes and decisions but bigg daddy harley will all ways have the final say on certian items. For example if tey wanted to put a Honda V4 they would probbally have a problem, but if they wanted to create a street fighter based of the VR100 or a twin simulare they wouldn't have a problem. Hell may be the Buell Motorcycle Co. will buy it self back much like Harley did in the 80s from AMF. OHHHHHH the posibilites |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:32 pm: |
|
Jose,
It was RAINING in qualifying at the FUSA event in Laconia for heaven's sake. Eric Wood went 1:14.1 laps in the race when it was dry, 1:14.0 in the dry practice. Yes, this is the same Eric Wood won Pro Thunder there a year ago on a 748RS Ducati, turning 1:15's. Oh, and his bike dyno'ed at 104HP at the end of the race (remember the max HP in FUSA Sportbike is 115). The good AMA factory 600s are making around 135 at the rear wheel (oh, right, they're stock...hahaha).
Why was it only 104HP? Rich from Innovative, who built the bike for Kosco's, said that he had just started on developing the bike a couple of weeks before.
XB's absolutely RULE in handling. If you can't tell that, you can't ride. Ask the real riders: Mike Cicotto, Shawn, Tripp, Dave Estok, and now Eric Wood.
Right, a Blast handles better? The Blast is a great little bike, but...give me a break! |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:54 am: |
|
I'm not arguing here, I'm really not. Just a good late night discussion.
Blake sez "Go to a Harley only dealer. Try to purchase a set of turn signals or brake pads for your Buell."
S*** ! Go to a Buell dealer and try to buy a set of turn signals or brake pads or anything else that doesn't cross reference with a Sportster. Good f****** luck. You might as well be buying parts for a Mercedes. |
|
A VROD Based Streetfighter?! »
Archive through June 27, 2002