| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
It's a strange one to try to figure out, and I got no joy, with regard to my queries, from Harley-Davidson.. At least I'm not alone in that frustration -Jay | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
My 2 cents. I see absolutely no need for EP (extreme pressure) additives in a Buell transmission. The chemistry of these additives is such that they will offer little or no aditional protection until a borderline lubrication condition exists between the gear surfaces. As Blake alludes to above, Hypoid Bevel gears are such an example when high rubbing/shear loads can exist in the oil film allowing posible metal/metal contact. It is under these conditions that the chemistry of EP additives is designed to work. Conventional spur or helical gears do not exhibit any of the characterisitics requiring an EP lubricant. The action of transferring power from one tooth to another is designed into the tooth geometry such that there is no sliding taking place. More a rolling motion between the teeth. HTH. Regarding the chemistry of the HD Tranny oil, there are many independant Tribology Labs around that would be happy to analyse the oil for you. I guess 50 or 60 bucks would cover the cost of a full report. Regards Steve www.shs-consulting.co.uk | ||
| Mikej |
Would the oil pump drive gear be considered hypoid in nature? | ||
| Rock |
FWIW, There is some information as to what Sport Trans is http://www.saintjohn.nbcc.nb.ca/Marriott/x1/#OilFilters.com. It's supposedly a hybrid hydraulic fluid. | ||
| Whodom |
Mikej: The oil pump drive gear is technically a cross-helical gear. | ||
| Mikej |
Thanks. | ||
| Bandm |
Racing Bulletins from Harley-Davidson have been recommending the use of "Racing" Automatic Transmission Fluid in Sportster transmissions for over 20 years. | ||
| Whodom |
Interesting thread on Sportster/Buell transmission lubrication on the "Bob is the Oil Guy" website: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000131 | ||
| Rick_a |
That was frikkin' hilarious. I like synth. I wear everything out prematurely anyway, and it leaves less deposits covering the innards when I take things apart. Mobil One gear oil is too stinky, so I can't use that  | ||
| Iamike |
Jim- My point exactly, I remember several years ago one poster said that he changed his oil every 500 miles! I use M1 15W50 during the summer and M1 5W30 during the winter. Granted the winter oil doesn't get a lot of miles on it but I did leave it in for our AZ Springfast '05. I change mine when I get around to it. I kind of forgot to check my primary interval last time and ran it (also M1 15W50) 7,000mi. Now that I'm at 53,000mi. it will be interesting to tear it down someday and see what condition everything is. | ||
| Tramp |
"I use M1 15W50 during the summer and M1 5W30 during the winter. Granted the winter oil doesn't get a lot of miles on it but I did leave it in for our AZ Springfast '05. I change mine when I get around to it. I kind of forgot to check my primary interval last time and ran it (also M1 15W50) 7,000mi. Now that I'm at 53,000mi. it will be interesting to tear it down someday and see what condition everything is." ??????????????????? everything should be fine...ooops- you run it on 5w30 in the "winter"....What were you thinking? no need to run anything under 40w (on the big#) anywhere in the world during the winter.... mine has done many NY winters (daily commuter) with nothibng lighter than Rotella 15w40...keep the runny garbage outta that pup... | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
i still get suckered into reading oil reports sometime but the same still holds true . Synthetic oil rules , does more for any engine than any additive to dino oil could hope to do and the best is stinll mobile 1 with penzoil 2nd and since they dropped that antiwear stuff they had in their oil they are a distant 2nd ow. | ||
| Tramp |
let's look at engine longevity.... | ||
| Iamike |
Tramp- I don't claim to be an oil expert, but since you seem to be would you answer a few questions? 1) Isn't it true that most of the wear in an engine happens during startup? 2) Doesn't a lower weight oil flow and lubricate quicker than a heavy weight one? 3) Why do cycle owner's manuals show a graph with different temperatures and different oil weights if 20W50 is the only one to use? 4) Why do many autos recommend 5W30 only for their engines? p.s. you don't have to copy and paste what I said, I already know. | ||
| Nitsebes |
I run Synth in my Primary /Motorcraft 80/90.If your in the Dearborn/Detroit area lmk .I have about 50 quarts in my shop "FREE" donated from Ford. I run the Royal Purple synth in the crankcase. | ||
| Tramp |
I don't claim to be an oil expert, but since you seem to be would you answer a few questions? Me either, but I play shadetree tech on TV...well...the internet, really.... 1) Isn't it true that most of the wear in an engine happens during startup? A: absolutely not. were that so, then owning a machine that you start up and immediately shut down each day would kill it. the most damage occurs during hot-running and motion-static idle, on AIR-COOLED engines. 2) Doesn't a lower weight oil flow and lubricate quicker than a heavy weight one? A:sure, and laquer thinner flows even better....i'm not about to espouse running THAT in the ol' crankcase... 3) Why do cycle owner's manuals show a graph with different temperatures and different oil weights if 20W50 is the only one to use? A: WHO said 20w50 is the only one to use? I stated above that I use 15w40 in the dead of winter. I think the bigger question is WHY would you imply that I said otherwise, if this is to be an honest and transparent exchange of ideas? 4) Why do many autos (tramp note- auto mfr.s?) recommend 5W30 only for their engines? A: (OH, THIS one is TOO easy....) That's beacuse many Auto Manufacturers build engines with miniscule oil passages (If you haven't done extensive engine work on modern automobiles, please trust me on this one- a modern auto angine and a Harley Davidson Air-cooled are like night and day- That's why I prefer older Vovlvos, BIG oil passages {'cause of the long, cold scandinavian winter} and loose clearances)and clearances in their engines, AND, virtually ALL auto manufacturers are using liquid-cooling in concert with auxiliary electric/electronic systems, thereby reducing running temp range {note i said IN CONCERT w/liquid-cooling. this is worlds away from the XB fans}. What are you going to suggest next...passenger-side airbags for Buells? Trust me, I'll swing at any good pitch you serve me, just PLEASE let's don't put words into each others' virtual mouths.... | ||
| Brucelee |
On the issue of weight, I could clearly see running a quality 5W-40 (say Shell Rotella Syn) in a cold clime. I think 5W-30 is not indicated for any clime save say the Arctic Circle. Actually, there I would run 0W-40. BTW- it is the lower weight that we care about most in cold climes. Hence, if it were way cold, that number needs to be lower indeed. You know, Ford and Honda recommend 0W-20 ............! | ||
| Bomber |
I still miss bean oil -- hey, tramp, know where I can score some? ;-} | ||
| Tramp |
"BTW- it is the lower weight that we care about most in cold climes. Hence, if it were way cold, that number needs to be lower indeed. " whoops- no offense, Dragon, but the high number counts as well. You're probably 75 % correct, being you don't wanna starve that valvetrain, etc., upon cold warmup, by offering it a lump of petro-taffy, BUT- your engine op. temp will STILL climb up upon warm-up, and if you're in stop and go tarffic in the winter, you can still obtain dangerously high engine temp. conditions. winter riding indicates a need for more range and not just a lower overall mean number. Oh, yeah- Bombs: I DO have some nic elines on bean oil for my (actual, as opposed to CMC)Indian customers. Good for some older radial airplane engines, as well. What a smell! Lo-lead av-gas and bean oil..... like riding astride a fullsize Cox racer... | ||
| Bomber |
mmmmmmmmmm --- love that smell -- mix it with hot ruber and small bits o clay, and visions of santefe speedway come bustin in! | ||
| Tramp |
NICE! smelling like a clip-wing J-3 on a grass strip... | ||
| Dsergison |
"owning a machine that you start up and immediately shut down each day would kill it." I believe that to be true. but one advantage. we have roller bearing in the lower end, unlike a car. | ||
| Tramp |
'"owning a machine that you start up and immediately shut down each day would kill it." I believe that to be true. ' hey- some folks believe in "Nessie".... trust me, any moron who wants to owne abuell and coldstart and immediately shut it down all the time will have an engine that lasts MUCH longer than one that warms up to operating temp and then spends some time in stopped traffic each day. guy with coldstart and immediate stop will never warp anything or have rocker box leaks, and those roller bearings love that gob of room temp oil. a bike thus "used" would last forever, as opposedf to the daily traffic rider..... | ||
| Iamike |
Well I'll let my 53,000mi. engine, with the way I run it, do the talking. Virtually no oil consumption, good compression and no other issues either. Oh, out here in the sticks we don't get much chance to buy anything but the basic stuff, none of those exotic oils that you guys keep talking about. | ||
| Iamike |
Oh, I forgot to answer my question about the auto manufacturers recommending 5W30...I have been told that it has much more to do with helping them achieve better gas mileage than the size of the oil passages. Also isn't there more to lubricate in engines than just the crank? | ||
| Blake |
My understanding is that the auto mfrs are designing their engines for and specifying the use of lower viscosity oils like even 0W20 engine oil solely to improve fuel efficiency. More viscous (thicker) oil robs more power from an engine. Using a lower viscosity engine oil requires better/closer tolerances on bearing surfaces and improved lubrication engineering overall, but it improves engine efficiency significantly. Example: Consider very low viscosity melted water underneath an ice skate as the ultimate high efficiency liquid lubricant. In engines using journal bearings, most bearing wear occurs at startup. Why? There is no film of oil to support hydrodynamic lubrication of journal bearings. It is why most IL4 motorcycle engines will wear out their right side crank bearing first as it is the one driving the cams and thus is exposed to more loading upon startup. Roller bearings may avoid the pitfalls of the startup lubrication issue. | ||
| Tramp |
hence the cold startup of buells not being the eventual death-knell.... we all have to bear in mind that the auto manufacturers DO produce engines with MUCH tighter oil passages, likely an effect of the fuel economy cause. sorta a tail-waggin-de-dawg thang. we have GOt to remember, though, that newer cars run at FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more stable temps than ourr Buells do, what with the matrix of electronic sensors and senders to the orchestra of cooling fans. don't believe me? drop a meat thermometer into your oil (or coolant) and let your 21st century car idle for a half-hour on a hot summer day. scary how stable the temp will remain. now try that with your Buell (oil) can you say WHOOOOOOOOOOPS! | ||
| Brucelee |
I think Buell has answered the oil viscosity question for us. It is in the manual. I always assume that I use a different weight at my own peril. Using a quality synthetic adds a dimension of protection in my mind, given all of the advantages of syn over dino. I hope that horse is dead and does not need to be beaten again. | ||
| Tramp |
so, your manual directs you to use synthetic, right? | ||
| Craigster |
I heard Wesson is coming out with a full synth. Supposed to keep the fried chicken from sticking to the pan under racing conditions. |
