| Author | Message | ||
     Buell_m2_s3 |
So my question is I have a 1998 Buell S3 S3T Thunderbolt and 2000 M2 Cyclone. My 2000 Cyclone seems to be the hot rod wheelie machine where as the S3's have power but not the same. Reminds me of my 96 S1 I had after some engine mods I did I have not had a chance to dyno any of them but all have vance and hinse muffers the Cyclone has a Mukuni 42-11 with race air cleaner my S3T has a stock carb jetted and Kyryakin air filter setup. The other S3 has a modified bread box on it stock carb and jetted. | ||
| Phelan |
M2s have a milder cam for more low end torque (D grind or W grind, can't remember), whereas the Thunderstorm motor in the S3T has .497 cams, which have more top end. | ||
| Reepicheep |
There was also a different second gear ratio between years in the tubers, but I don't recall which was where and when it switched. Though I think the "wheelie" version of second gear preceeded the 2000 M2. | ||
| Buellistic |
OLD SCHOOL bottom line: Do you want LOW END TORQUE where we all ride every day or TOP END where the SPEED COPS are ??? | ||
| Tombo |
A 98 S3 has the same motor as a 98 S1W. The 2000 M2 has the same heads but milder cams and slightly lighter flywheel. Never saw an S3 that could not easily walk away from an M2 with stock cams. If you are staying low in the rev range then the M2 might feel faster, but if it actually is faster then your S3 may have a problem. Not that I advocate this, or even practice this anymore myself and do not advise anyone to try the comparison, but for me an S3 was much easier to hold a wheelie on in either 1st or 2nd than an M2. The M2 would pop up then run out of steam. The S3 could stand up with throttle only around 15mph and stay up until around 65 (which required you to shift into second along the way). | ||
| Buell_m2_s3 |
Thanks for the info it has been a few years since I had a Buell but had a 06 sportster in between. My old 96 S1 was something else for performance and kind going from that when I got my M2 in earley July and was suprised with the power and twist of the wick 1st 2nd and 3rd wheelies. Then my S3 mid July and my S3T last weekend. Love me some Buell  | ||
| Tombo |
Nice little collection, wonder how many on this board own multiple Buells. I have an S1 as well as an S3. | ||
| Hootowl |
I have two tubers and an xb | ||
| Phelan |
I have an S2 and a Ulysses. | ||
| Jolly |
Nice collection!! I've got 5 tubers!! 1995 S2 1996 S1 1998 S1W 1999 X1 2002 S3T They all run just a little differently from each other but they are all great rides! Love them all!!! | ||
| 1313 |
I dig the air cleaner on the black S3! Do you have any details on it? 1313 | ||
| Dannybuell |
this is a mikuni v.s. stock carb tuning issue. tuning a keihin and a mikuni is like night and day. I have did the thunder slide and jetted the keihin. i eventually put a mikuni on and had it dyno tuned. i now use less choke. the bottom end is so connected to the pipe. the fuel delivery is so clean and precise. it revs more like my 1125CR. | ||
| Buell_m2_s3 |
The air clear on the black S3T is a kuryakyn skull https://m.denniskirk.com/185553.sku?utm_source=goo gle&utm_medium=cse&gclid=CJPsmLKjl8cCFQSUfgodzdsHc w&ad=45713334757 | ||
| Lakes |
Dannybuell no advantage 42 mikuni over a correctly tuned keihin 40cv a friend & i flow tested both on there manifold, both flowed same amount of air. never used a thunder slide as we got the stock cv 40 tuned & performing great. two of my friends raced in the Roaring Sporty's back in the mid to late 90's on 883's with Thunderstorm heads Australian made headers SE cam's runing a lot of piston to bore clearance, used to rev them to 8,000, & they just had the Keihin carb no thunderslide just smoothed out stock slide edge & tuned left stock hole in stock slide too & stock slide spring 140mph down main straight at Sydney Australia Eastern Creek raceway. also in about 1996 one friend went as wrench for dealer to Daytona roaring sporty class all the carb does is give motor air & fuel, as they come stock too lean just have to jet them right, & getting slide to rise faster kill's the design, as motor can not use a full bore of air at lower rev, uses the full bore at higher rev's. if you put a bike tuned right with a CV40 & another bike tuned right with a Mik 42 side by side same gear same weight & gave them fast full WOT the cv40 would ecellerate away as the carb design is to keep velocity constant the Mik the slide would go straight up the excellerator pump would help for a fraction, but at lower rev 3,000rpm the full bore would be more than motor could use for best execration just how i see it. | ||
| Phelan |
I just keep the bike over 4,000 and then I always have power XD. | ||
| The4ork |
ive only ever ridden a S-1 and an xb12... S1 way more fun, feels much more powerful, xb12 felt... boring. how does the muscle of the S-1 compare to the other tubes? | ||
| Buelliedan |
How much more power a Mikuni can make vs a CV 40 depends a lot on what has been done to the bike. On a stock Buell there is not a whole lot of difference but as you put on more go fast parts the Mikuni can make a lot more power. NRHS did testing on this several years ago and you can go here to see the results: http://nrhsperformance.com/tech_mikunivscv.shtml (Message edited by buelliedan on August 07, 2015) | ||
| Wesbuell |
My '98 M2 pulls a lot harder now that it has a good tune on the cv40, thanks to the advice on this site. It seems happy to lift the front wheel a little when the revs are up whilst smashing the twisties, but power wheelies unassisted just don't seem to happen. Makes me wonder if a few horses have gotten out of the paddock over the years? I don't have a comparison though, as I have yet to see a 97 or 98 locally. Still by far the maddest ride I have had.  | ||
| Kalali |
'how does the muscle of the S-1 compare to the other tubes?" I have no objective data but I rode a friends' S1 and I felt my X1 pulls stronger and can hold its breath longer... one seat of the pants data point. | ||
| Lakes |
Ross very true , just with a carb like a Mik or s&s you need to control how you operate throttle for best excelleration. i road an old shovel kick start only ( much lighter no battery problems ) was 98 cubic inch with Andrews M grind & S&S D carb, that bike still runing strong too. a friend had a 98 cubic in Shovel with a 2" SU we road everywhere & raced at track, there was no way i could beat him out the hole but 5,000 up i ruled, if i gave it 5,000 on the line i could not get traction. the only reason i ruled at high rev was the S&S D flowed a lot more air than the 2" SU & my motor could use the air. but with the CV40 & the Mik 42 flowing same amount of air ( when mounted to there manifolds ) i can't see any advantage. but Mikuni & Kiehnin both make some great Carb just the 42HSR not one of them but a lot of people have them & love them so if they are happy thats most important part. | ||
| Buellistic |
OLD SCHOOL PERFORMANCE: TORQUE gets you out CORNERS(turns/off the line) ... HORSE POWER(HP) gets you to the end of the straight away !!! | ||
| Lakes |
Buelliedan Dyno tests don't impress me at all. put the two bikes side by side on a drag strip. don't worry at all who wins the race as that is just rider skill. look at the trap speed of both bikes thats how i measure HP a bike with more HP will have a higher trap speed. if you see a bike do a slow ET but a high trap Speed then you look at the sixty foot time, a slow sixty foot just tell's you the rider had more HP than they knew how to use but high trap speed shows they have a lot of HP. Dyno's are a good tool when used the way they were meant . but most people don't know how to use them to get results like i see people go to the drag strip saying how much HP they have but they do a slow ET & a slow trap speed and they pull out a dyno print out to show me the dyne HP & TQ very impressive but there drag strip print out does not match the Dyno print out. so i just think that most Dyno print outs must have taken too long in time to get to the RPM like all the dyne print outs we see just show correction factor and HP & TQ @ rpm but they do not show how long it took to get to that RPM. when i watch my friend on his DJ 250i custom mapping customers EFI bikes when he does the average HP & TQ all out test i think it would take say 4 second's or 5 seconds to get the full dyno print out sometimes longer. so when i Dynoed my own bike i said i want to find the tune that gives me the most HP & TQ the quickest under full load, i'm not worried about all out numbers as they seem to take too long WOT to get the big numbers & i will never get to use them. as when i ride on street or when i drag race i'm never WOT longer than say 3 or 4 seconds MAX so we will tun for the most HP & TQ under load in 3 seconds as i'll never get to use the others. so have you got any dyno print out's to show that are telling us HP & TQ in seconds not RPM? reson i wanted the most HP & TQ in three seconds is at track i'm in 4th gear when i go through speed trap WOT on my little 74cid M2 best time stock frame stock wheelbase no wheelie bar as i ride it to track 11.2 118mph so i think three seconds x 4= 12seconds but i only took 11.2 seconds so in reality i did not use any HP or TQ that took longer than 3 seconds WOT. | ||
| Phelan |
On the dyno here, the rate it reaches speed IS how it factors the horsepower. Besides, we are at 5,500 ft above sea level, so the actual power numbers are over 15% down from sea level results. That's why the machine does corrected numbers. | ||
| Buellistic |
OLD SCHOOL: A DYNO is a "BALL PARK TOOL" ... A "FUEL/AIR GAUGE" is a REAL WORLD TOOL ... | ||
| Lakes |
Ross that's what SAE correction factor is for. my friend has an Engine Dyno at about same altitude. if you always use SAE you can compare dyno, but too many use them as marketing tool's. but for me the black dyno the best. that cv40 mik hsr42 dyno did not show any weather settings or correction factor just HP & afr so not much info. the afr looked to be only reason the Mik 42 could bear the cv40 so better tune on cv40 would be fairer. & show the TQ too as it's Torque that thrusts you forward not Horsepower. torque quick, horsepower fast. my friends Dyno goes off weight , the motor bolted too it he controls the amount of load the computer works out how fast a motor can move an amour of weight how quick. he has a lot of equipment for testing & tuning. does a lot of custom maps for EFI race cars. it's interesting to me. he is the only one i've ever seen that has done a direct test on same motor same set up just used a carb & manifold then EFI. was interesting to see difference. | ||
| Dannybuell |
from idle to red line a Mikuni is a better carb. I used polishing compound on the kihein slide and the rails polished nice and shiney, the carb was great for a while and then it gummed up... A lighter spring all the usual stuff... flow at wide open a 42 v.s. 40 meh. from idle to redline and anywhere in between mikuni. with 105 on my S1 the engine starts better, plugs are cleaner at 10Kmi interval, and revs faster... the kihein is a nice old well proven CV design. the mikuni is more of a race proven design... | ||
| Lakes |
Dannybuell, good you are happy, i'm very happy with my Bob Wood 43.5 Rebel ( cv44 ) gets really good gas economy & performs great. i have had it since 2003 a friend in USA got it used for me. had the heads off motor after using it for a while & looks to be jetted perfect. i can go up in 1 thou increasements on main jet as Bob converts to Holly carb jets it has a stepped needle, i don't like light spring eather does Bob Wood it also has larger than stock float bowl. i used it on my twin cam Dyna 95 for many years then went to a CV51 with the Dyna. so had the carb doing nothing, my M2 i got it still with stock CV40 jetted lean , so i left it as it was got a manifold from HD dealer put the wood Rebel 43.5 on had it on now 4 about three years ride all year round. think we have different gas here? no gumming up. some people like the Mikuni some like the CV's i like the CV , i have raced against other Buells and harleys that used Mikuni and i got higher trap speed than they did, but was not the carb was my motor set up . enjoy your riding | ||
| Tombo |
Kalali, a standard X1 vs. a standard S1 should have the X1 walking away. They use the same cams, but the X1 has T-Storm heads (same as an S1W as opposed to an S1). It also has the larger exhaust outlet and has lighter flywheels. Whether the EFI adds another edge depends on how well setup either the carb or EFI are, either can make the difference. | ||
| Truckedup |
"OLD SCHOOL: A DYNO is a "BALL PARK TOOL" ... A "FUEL/AIR GAUGE" is a REAL WORLD TOOL .." Not necessarily because it depends on the how the machine is used. Not Buell but I race a 650 Triumph in LSR. It's currently the 650 cc pushrod modified production record holder in several racing venues. LSR is wide open throttle, in my case a mile or mile and a half standing start. The bike is tuned on the dyno for best power, I learned to pay no attention to the A/F meter readings. The reason being is what is the best A/F ratio for a modified engine. I varies depending on the modifications and other factors... You experience may be different... (Message edited by truckedup on August 28, 2015) | ||
| Buellistic |
Truckedop: My 97S3T is set to 12 to 1 ... Now tell me what the DYNO says you 650 TRIUMPH is ??? |
