| Author | Message | ||
     Sambodean |
roger, thanks natexlh1000 for the quick response. Is there any other special tools i need to make? and will the jugs come off easier than i think they will? My bike is an hour away, so when i hit snags like that, its the end of the work day, plus bay area traffic is horrible. | ||
| Sambodean |
Another question as well. With thunderstorm heads, are the stock jugs with stock pushrods from the evo okay? So basically install new pistons and the thunderstorm heads with the stock jugs, and pushrods? my friend will give me a deal on his heads...more power is always welcome in my book. | ||
| V74 |
I've had the rear cylinder off twice with engine in the frame. apart from hacksawing an Allen key for the rocked cover and the manifold Allen bolt I did not need any special tools.the base gasket is a pain to get off. just read and follow the workshop manual. do not buy any new parts until you have disassembled and assessed whats damaged. most parts from an XL evo engine will fit depending on year but wait till you know whats wrong before researching and locating exact parts. | ||
| V74 |
thinking about it you might need a wrist pin remover tool as I didn't need to remove the piston .I didn't use a piston ring tool when I replaced cylinder since ive done this before but when you slowly remove the cylinder make sure you have rags to hand to stop any damaged parts falling into the crankcase.been there done that(not with the buell)luckily got part out without having to split the cases.these engines for the most part are really easy to work on just take it slow and read and re read the workshop manual. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You need that cut off allen wrench to get the intake bolts out anyway. Get out the hacksaw!  | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Better to use a dremel with a cut-off wheel. Those little wrenches are hardened. | ||
| V74 |
going back to the start smoke out of the carb/air cleaner then oil on the right hand side of the engine. has an intake valve oil seal failed causing first the smoke then a fouled spark plug resulting in loss of power and now unable to idle and the oil on the right side. have you checked the spark plug? | ||
| Sambodean |
i already have various sizes cut with the chop saw at work for the allens  , so I'm prepared today. I also do work on my sailboat, and when you remove the big winches, they have bearings ect that will fall out into the water if you're not careful. Ill use a little trick i learned from that, and get a flat piece of a cardboard box, cut it to the size of the rod, and then when i get enough clearance, slide it in. thank you guys for all the helpful information. On my way to do some work, so hopefully tonight, you'll see some pictures! | ||
| Sambodean |
ps. I got the intake off without cutting an allen? must have just gotten lucky with a defective stubby allen in my tool kit. | ||
| Sambodean |
Got it all off, head is fine, piston and jug is a different story. Anyone have any idea what happened? the valves are fine on the head. The guy that had the bike before me replaced the head gasket on the same cylinder..  | ||
| Sambodean |
and the jug  | ||
| Lynrd |
Intake leak. | ||
| Sambodean |
thanks for the quick reply Lynrd. how would a intake leak cause this much damage? | ||
| V74 |
ouch thats my theory out the window hope its just a re-bore and piston kit needed. I'm sure the two greatest mechanical engineers on the planet (you know who I mean) will be able to tell you why and how and what's needed. | ||
| Lynrd |
Intake leak = lean condition - too much air, making the fuel air charge burn hotter. Hot enough in this case to start melting things. Doesn't look like the cyl wall scored deeply - i also think a rebore and some new pistons should work out fine. It actually COULD also be a small head gasket leak - wondering if the former owner decked the head flat when he did that change. I was going to ask the question on your earlier post, when you said the former owner had changed the head gasket on one cylinder...Am I the only one that changes BOTH head gaskets, whenever I have to do one? (Not just on HDs...I do the same on V8s). I figure whatever was going on on one cylinder probably was going on in the other, and if one has failed, the other is about to. In this case, that may not be strictly necessary, but if you have to go oversize pistons, there's balance to think about. Good news is - a top end gasket set always has all the gaskets for both jugs. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'm sure the two greatest mechanical engineers on the planet (you know who I mean) will be able to tell you why and how and what's needed. How very polite of you! You do know it's not a competition don't you? No one's asking you to take my observations as gospel. Make your own judgement at your peril. I'm no expert after all  Sam, your engine has suffered component failure due to mileage, use, component quality. Sustained high speed being it's final outcome from what has been an overheating rear cylinder. A somewhat common occurrence on some tube Buells when ridden hard and often. The piston crown under the exhaust valve, the weakest area in this instance, appears to have been subject to a hotspot leading to detonation. I doubt very much that's an intake or ignition issue. I will explain why for those that no doubt will doubt. Typically in this design and shape of head an intake issue would cause a hotspot on the intake side of the piston. Two reasons why. It's where the fuel is introduced, and an increase of air will likely cause the flame path to wonder closer to the intake side where it will burn hottest where the fuel is first, leading to detonation on the intake side. Typically an ignition issue will concentrate around the spark plug. The plug location being central to the piston, the piston centre will suffer heat situations most in such a design. Thus the centre is where detonation will most likely occur. Neither of the these are absolutes, and nor is your engine issue Sam, but your engine looks like it has suffered from piston/cylinder overheating leading to detonation on the crown edge under the exhaust valve - it being the rear of the rear cylinder, thus the exhaust side, therefore the hottest place and suffering from less cooling. Looking at your cylinder it looks like it might hone. Check for debris and crap in the crankcase area. Check crank / rod for no play. Install new piston kit, new plugs, new gaskets, oil and filter. Check ignition and intake (matter of course). You're good to go. Easily fixed in a working day for not a lot of wonga me thinks. Happy Buelling then. Rocket in England | ||
| Blu1hockey |
I disagree rocket. I don't know why but I wanted to be the first to do it. | ||
| Sambodean |
Lol you guys are hilarious. Honestly, I spoke with another fellow who thinks it's a pre detonation failure, Which makes sense, considering there's "screaming eagle" computer on the bike that I'm assuming leans it out. And considering the guy I bought it from, I doubt he had it tuned properly. | ||
| Lynrd |
He meant "Pre-ignition" or "Detonation". "Pre-detonation" is a not a thing. Could be. Things that cause Pre-ignition are : too low octane fuel, too high compression, too much advance on the timing. Honestly, with modern ignition systems, I have trouble understanding how you can set the ignition that far out of adjustment, but I guess it is possible. a bad or disconnected VOES could contribute to that. At first, I honestly could not figure out how Rocket put together that was on the exhaust side - then I noticed the starter motor in the edge of the picture. Yup - that was exhaust side. His explanation does make sense, and, if you were detonating in there, you got out cheap. Whatever the cause, just put it back together with care and you should not see a repeat. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Those are some nasty pics.. to bad I've seen this before on my own M2. I'll give you the scenario. Rode the bike to work one day and got stuck in traffic, bike got pretty hot and in stop & go traffic, it started to ping. I could hardly hear it. I didn't think it was pre-ignition but it was. The cause a small chunk is piston to basically come off the very edge of the piston and then proceeded to beat the hell out of the piston and cylinder. The head was fine and so were the valves but it only smoked on deceleration oddly. It looked exactly the same as your photo for both the piston and cylinder. when the engine was torn down, the broken piece was never found. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I disagree rocket. I don't know why but I wanted to be the first to do it. Bloody brilliant. Let's hope you're not the last otherwise it would be too easy to keep up my act as one of the two greatest mechanical engineers on the planet  Does anyone know who the other is by the way? I'm confused  Rocket in England | ||
| Sambodean |
M2typhoon, did you split the case ? My worries are that I won't be able to find anything by looking, and then it will just be stuck in the back of my head, that some metal piece is tearing it's way around the engine. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Honestly, I spoke with another fellow who thinks it's a pre detonation failure, Which makes sense, considering there's "screaming eagle" computer on the bike that I'm assuming leans it out. And considering the guy I bought it from, I doubt he had it tuned properly. Nope this is utterly wrong. The proof is in your engine and not in assumption based on such a stupid diagnosis from a conversation. Especially one which has that stupid broad sweeping sword comment "pre detonation". I'll get back to you in a mo...... Rocket in England | ||
| Sambodean |
Lynrd, where is the voes actually located. I saw some pictures of what it looks like, but have no clue where it's at. | ||
| Sambodean |
And rocket_in_uk. He was just going off of what I told him. "He" being Aaron Wilson from hammer performance. Sorry for saying pre-detonation, if I had known I would be crucified for it, I would have spared you. One thing that needs to stop on here is dissecting and nit picking every stupid thing. I'm in here to learn, not to be judged and ridiculed. At any rate thanks mostly for your advice, it's mostly informative and doesn't make you sound like a total jerk. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I've seen this before on my own M2. I'll give you the scenario. Rode the bike to work one day and got stuck in traffic, bike got pretty hot and in stop & go traffic, it started to ping. I could hardly hear it. I didn't think it was pre-ignition but it was. The cause a small chunk is piston to basically come off the very edge of the piston and then proceeded to beat the hell out of the piston and cylinder. The head was fine and so were the valves but it only smoked on deceleration oddly. It looked exactly the same as your photo for both the piston and cylinder. when the engine was torn down, the broken piece was never found. He meant "Pre-ignition" or "Detonation". "Pre-detonation" is a not a thing. I'm familiar with the term and what it means, but both conditions can be incredibly difficult to diagnose or confirm because the end result can look the same. This makes it necessary to distinguish both conditions and not lump them together as one. M2's scenario is a good example where both conditions can be explored and how they appear to work together. The engine got hot as described. Pinking indicated pre ignition, but why pre ignition. It sounds to me like this engine appears to have suffered the same fate as Sam's. The piston and cylinder overheated whilst sat in traffic with little to no cooling over the cylinder. As the hot spot developed, detonation occurred. Detonation causes the pinking effect as the explosion becomes erratic likely because the piston is melting and causing the mixture to burn. This is a pre ignition condition, but it is one born in detonation. It's highly unlikely the temperatures reached in the combustion chamber whilst sat in traffic would ignite a pre ignition condition unless the engine was in gross need of a decoke. It's ever so likely the piston picked up, leading to the crown edge on the exhaust side melting. The detonation process well at work - and the reason no bits of piston were found. Both these engines I would suggest, suffered identical failures. Knowing the difference between pre ignition and detonation, using the evidence present, is key to understanding the cause and how to rectify the damage done. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
And rocket_in_uk. He was just going off of what I told him. "He" being Aaron Wilson from hammer performance. Sorry for saying pre-detonation, if I had known I would be crucified for it, I would have spared you. Sam, I might have crucified the use of the terminology, but certainly not you for using it. Here's me and your Hammer guy "He" discussing a problem with the record breaker.  Please can I be worthy too now? Rocket in England | ||
| Sambodean |
The proof is in your engine and not in assumption based on such a stupid diagnosis from a conversation. Especially one which has that stupid broad sweeping sword comment "pre detonation". Crucified may have been a bit too much, but nevertheless, rude. And "stupid" isn't the correct terminology, especially for someone who is critical with everything that is said. Anyways, me seeing you with the guy whom you said made a "stupid" diagnosis means nothing. It is in no way, improving my knowledge, or understanding of the situation, and like I said, not necessary. All helpful information is welcomed, as are corrections, like m2typhoon did. Other than that, I appreciate all the helpful information, and thanks for that.} (Message edited by Sambodean on June 06, 2014) | ||
| Sambodean |
Back to the problem at hand, where is the actual voes located? I certainly didn't see very many if any, vaccum lines on that bad boy when I was tearing it apart. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Well there's no pleasing you is there. I wouldn't mind, but what did I do to rattle your cage? To be clear. The terminology is stupid. The condition doesn't exist. It's like putting tea and coffee in the same mug and asking which one should be the one you're drinking. Thus, stupid terminology means stupid diagnosis. Rocket in England |
