| Author | Message | ||
     Littlebuggles |
Supertrapps, Buell pro series supertrapps (pic above by Jramsey), and the White Brothers were all tunable disk pipes. Not only can you tune for the best power, but you can add or remove disks for volume level. I liked the white brothers but didn't like the 360 degree exhaust ventilation, made me dizzy riding in the city, even with their deflector, and it tended to make a mess with the exhaust deposits. I run 19 disks with a closed endcap in my M2 and it makes nice power, definitely an improvement over the (much lighter) V&H. The V&H is pretty much just a straight through muffler, with packing around the perforated core, though it does neck down a bit through the core. I think the disk types give better back pressure so you don't get all wheezy down low, just for that little umph up high. -Mike | ||
| Captainkirk |
Greg, we're not all "douches". I run the Buell race kit (which includes the full race exhaust) in order to utilize the airflow through the CF race air cleaner and the HSR42. Works well in conjunction with the Andrews N8 cams. These cams don't get down to business until upstairs of 3K and effective torque range is 4k-redline (rev limiter). I have repacked the muffler with the American Sport Bike kit and find it too loud to ride any distance without foam ear plugs. My point; stock exhaust would choke this motor. I try to be considerate of others, don't sit in my driveway revving the motor. I prefer to go on solo rides on country roads and avoid towns and traffic when I can, and when I do, I try to pass through quietly. However, if a group of drunkards standing outside a bar want to think of me as an inconsiderate douche, frankly, I don't give a rat's ass. I don't drink and ride on stupid poker runs and I could care less of some dweeb on a 'Wing thinks I'm a douche. I'm sure if the factory gurus had created a quiet power-making system designed for my bike, I would have bought it. They didn't so I didn't. So stop making spot-judgements on riders that don't march to your drum, OK? You do your thing, we'll do ours. (Message edited by Captainkirk on October 08, 2011) | ||
| S1owner |
The only people that are douches are the people who judge others or comment to others in negative ways with out ever meeting them or getting to know them. Loud exhausts annoy me but if Joe down the street likes it good for him as long as I am not paying for his hearing aid! | ||
| Db4570 |
I agree with Greg. I have no need to piss people off. I remember reading in another thread somewhere a guy talking about his exhaust mods to his bike, saying something like, "sounds great, loud as hell, really pisses off the neighbors!" like that's a good thing. Man, I'm glad I don't live next to this guy. That having been said, I do think I'd like a bit more of a rumble than stock. But I'll try the stock one to see how it sounds. I think I need to get hangers and clamps, since there's nothing with the original muffler now. Can someone let me know what I'll need, and a good source for them? The previous owner also put a Mikuni on it, so who knows how it's jetted. I bet I may have to re-jet for the stock muffler. The Supertrapp also seems really cool, especially since it sounds like it's basically the same as the OEM Pro-series piece. But over $400? Ouch . Might wait a bit. Dave | ||
| Two_seasons |
Db: Easy to obtain the needed muffler mounts at your local HD dealer. Most of the bigger ones have dyno's too, so you can have them run it up and get the correct jetting for your "new" bike. | ||
| Ebutch |
Opps posted wrong spot here its. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/476 23/654534.html?1318126236 | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Hey, I'm not calling guys douches, I'm passing on the sentiment of others. And I'm not talking about Gold Wings, and Harley owners. I'm talking about sportbike destinations (Rock Store, Newcomb's Ranch, etc) where Harleys are the exception. I see the looks and hear the comments every time a loud bike (almost always a Harley) starts up and idles a long time or screws it on as they leave. I see people shaking their head at the gas station as a guy starts up and revs his chopper to let me know that he's a badass. The general public doesn't appreciate loud motorcycles any more than boom-cars. I'm just passing on that loud pipes just might not be as cool as some owners think. If people look when you ride by, it doesn't necessarily mean they're admiring your bike. I noticed it with the repacked V&H on my S1W and it was the reason I ditched that thing ASAP. | ||
| Rick_a |
I'm running the Buell race header with a Supertrapp 4" automotive muffler on my S1 (the first race kit exhaust was done this way). It took the stock bike from 78 ft-lbs and 75 hp to 82 ft-lbs and 84 hp and eliminated a huge mid range dip (that's with Lightning heads). With the latest heads, mild headwork, a 1250 kit, and N9 cams it's at 98 hp and 92 ft-lbs with a seat of the pants tune (never been properly dyno tuned). It actually makes 60 ft-lbs from 2500 rpm and pulls to 7000 RPM with a nice, flat torque curve, dispelling the myth that big cams "don't make torque." It's all about how it's set-up. The 'Trapp is versatile in that it is easily tuned for any engine combination. It's currently set up with an open end cap of my own making with an exhaust deflector keeping heat off the rear tire. It's a bit loud, but everyone so far has told me it sounds good, except for one guy I rode past on a group ride years ago. Even the neighbors don't complain. Cams with more duration and especially overlap are more influenced by the exhaust. As has been mentioned, that why the stock muffler is great on the XL cammed bikes, and is terrible with any of the S.E. cammed motors. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
So one guy had the balls to tell you. Nobody else takes the trouble to confront you, and that means it's not annoying them? I don't cut my lawn every week and I know it annoys the hell out of my neighbor but, he's never says anything to me.
The 'tunable' part goes away when you punch a hole in the endcap. All that money, trouble and noise just to make 10 HP more than a bone-stock Thunderstorm engine--stock muffler, stock breadbox? That was the genius of the Buell designs and people still think they know better. Yeah, if you're racing and need that extra 10 HP on top, knock yourself out. This isn't my opinion, it was published in "Harley-Davidson Sportster/Buell Engine Hop-Up Guide." My 1993 Kawasaki ZX11 lays down 126 HP at the rear wheel. It is showroom stock and very quiet. The only mod is 0.5 mm shims under the needles to cure the off-idle lean condition. It makes solid power from 3K to its 11,500 redline. The bike regularly gets mid-40s in spirited riding and often cracks 50 MPG (highway) when I can keep my wrist out of it. Its best was riding from Oakhurst, Ca to Bishop, through Yosemite with three other guys. They all got mid-40s and the ZX got 54 MPG. To match the power-to-weight ratio of that stock, quiet ZX11, a Buell would have to put down 110 HP (at the tire). I know it will mop the floor with any of my four tubers in any kind of engine performance contest. No amount of money will ever change that. To add insult to injury, the ZX11 is a has-been, washed up leftover from the 90s. You can't win this argument with numbers. I ride the Buells because they make pleasant, low-end and midrange power. Both of my Thunderstorms do that with a nice rush on top as well. They do it in a package 100 pounds lighter than the ZX. The Buells out-handle and out-brake the ZX. Is it any wonder the Buells are my first choice out of the garage and the ZX has been out once this summer? I have a stock S1W exhaust (header and muffler) on its way right now for my S2. It will also eventually get the whole rest of the T-storm parts (cams, head, ignition). Quiet, quick, and that gorgeous brushed stainless muffler. The Buell engineers 'got it' and did the best job possible with that engine. | ||
| Rick_a |
The hole in the end cap was part of tuning with the stock XB heads. It eliminated the need to have a huge number of disks on the end of the muffler. The end cap was nearly touching the tire previously. It wasn't done just to increase noise or a haphazard measure. It effectively shortened the muffler while maintaining the same performance. Tell all those dirt track teams out there that they're wrong.
The ten HP is just a start. As I've said the current configuration hasn't been dyno'd save for baseline runs years ago. The stock heads were Lightning heads which had limitations to start with and the front head broke. The engine also needed a rebuild at the time. I was also working at an H-D/Buell dealer which made it all affordable. Plenty of reasons. We've asked the neighbors about the volume of my bike. Non have voiced a complaint. I don't open it up until I'm out of the neighborhood, anyway. Bottom line is that I have improved on the performance of the bike quite a bit (the peak numbers don't even begin tell the whole story), and with some tuning there is a lot of room for improvement, especially on top. It's a completely different animal from where it started. 14 ft-lbs and 24 horsepower with a ton more power under the curve is a lot more than it appears on paper. This bike is only held WOT on long straights, and rarely, if ever on the street. The S1W still had a noticeable torque dip off idle. Do with yours as you please, but I'm not a fan of preachin.' | ||
| Buellistic |
If you(doing your on tuning) can not MAX. tune what you got off the show room floor, throwing big $$$$$.$$ parts at the engine will not make it run that much better ... "i" like PRODUCT IMPROVING OEM Parts and JEWISH tuning as in more bang for what ever is free HP and torque is in the RPM range where the LEGAL SPEED LIMITS are ... NOISE is not more torque/fast .. (Message edited by buellistic on October 09, 2011) | ||
| Rick_a |
For comparison, on the dyno used, XB12's typically made 87-88hp and 70-72 ft-lbs of torque with race modules, mufflers, and de-snorkelled with high flow air filters. Buellistic, I simply have to tell you that you're completely wrong. On the other hand, if you are happy with what you've done...well, then, good for you. Almost any I-4 sportbike, 600cc and up is faster than the Buell, even going years back. That's pretty irrelevant. My aim was to make the most of my 1250cc's in a daily ridden, streetable bike. About the money, about 50% of the funding came from selling the old parts. There really hasn't been much invested. Whether it is worth the expense is a completely personal choice. The bike IS stronger from the bottom to top so there are no negatives. It's not as smooth under 3000 RPM but that's not a concern. Buell had to contend with keeping things street legal. That's a lot of constraint. They definitely did a good job on that point. Personally, the weight of the stock muffler alone was enough for me to can it. It made a solid .50 BMG target. Congrats Greg_cifu on the new acquisition, and thanks to both of you for the great insight. To the OP, the best advice is probably the Supertrapp muffler, as the sound can be kept to mellow levels, and you should use earplugs anytime you're riding at highway speeds as Blake mentioned, regardless. | ||
| Jayvee |
I had the SuperTrapp brand on my M2, took out the disks to the minimum (recommended) disks, still too loud for my commute, and lost noticeable power from 'all the disks'. When I weighed the stock muffler vs. the SuperTrapp muffler (with few disks) the stock was half a pound more. So weight not worth worrying about either. I liked the power, but like my hearing more. I always ride with earplugs already. So far I tried V&H, SuperTrapp, and Drummer, but still use the stock muffler. I have a Race Kit, that's the last one left to try. Ideally I want to adapt a stock muffler to the Race Header, then have it copied in titanium by that guy in England. But you know how it is, money talks and right now I don't hear anything. | ||
| Rick_a |
Wow, didn't know those were that heavy. Was that the internal or external disk? | ||
| Jayvee |
Its called the IDS, so I guess Internal Disk System. Once can really feel the heft, compared to V&H. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
I noticed that, switching to my Supertrapp from the Vance. Quite heavy, smaller and doesn't high center going over the top of the ramp into the truck like my stocker always did. 'Couse all the aftermarket pipes have had better clearance there. I really like the way the pipe polished out, and once heated has a nice golden color that blends well with the stock header.  I also don't like loud pipes, I think they are offensive and impolite. I have a neighbor that used to rumble through the condos blipping the throttle the whole way down the alley. He came from Florida so giving him the benefit of the doubt I advised on proper jets for this elevation for his Sporty. He re-jetted and still rides like a douche. Some people are just that way. I keep my bike at low throttle around the condos, and generally don't jam it unless the road is clear, I'm out in the open, or I'm intentionally trying to draw attention to myself - like when the guy in the truck cuts me off or crowds me out of my lane, then I'm happy to make a lot of noise. My XB has the stock muffler, I have no intention of changing it out. But I've got more reflective striping and lights on it for better visibility too, since it's harder to hear coming or going. | ||
| Jakenok |
Greg, the open end cap is offered by SuperTrapp, look it up, it's not people "punching holes in end caps" . Regarding loud pipes, I hear as many on sport bikes as HDs and Buells. If you are offended by a loud motorcyle, fine, but calling people douchesexposes the real douche: you. | ||
| Ridedualsportcom |
My brother put 30,000 on his 1999 X1, the bike ran perfectly and looked like new when he sold it. The only booger on the bike was the three aftermarket slip-on pipes that were in constant need of maintenance. Cracked mounting tabs, re-packing, sloppy fit, and wear on the header where the pipe slipped on. I drew from his experience, and choose to leave my 2001 S3 muffler completely stock, even then I have to tighten the mounting bolts occasionally. I want to buy another stock muffler, just because I keep my bikes for ever and figure it will rot out or be punctured some day. Long Live Buell. PS: littlebuggles, your polished pipe and muffler are awesome looking! I have considered polishing my pipe as well. Hotjet coatings seem to mess with the fit of the pipe, so polishing is an excellent alternative. http://ridedualsport.com/forum (Message edited by ridedualsportcom on October 16, 2011) (Message edited by ridedualsportcom on October 16, 2011) | ||
| Greg_cifu |
I've seen both types of Supertrapp modification. I've got more bikes than I care to admit, of all brands; six of them have Supertrapps. I'm very aware of the modifications possible--some just punch the endcap out or take it off and just put the screws through the disks. I've even seen the snuff or not endcaps. And again: I didn't call anybody a douche. I was simply pointing out that OTHERS think they are douches. I witness it constantly. I can only gather that you live in a bizzaro world, where a loud bike pulls away and other guys start rubbing their crotches and gyrating. What I see are people shaking their heads in disbelief and waiting for the person to leave or get far enough away that they can resume their lives. Don't belive me? How about Adam Carolla? http://youtu.be/Hi4qVd6E_Ec | ||
| Db4570 |
Hey, Buellistic I PM'ed you twice in response to: "You can PRODUCT IMPROVE the OEM muffler, INFO and pictures, just PM me ..." at the beginning of the post, but didn't receive anything yet. You did send me some battery and jacking info, though. Do you still have the info on how to modify the stock muffler? Just wanted to be sure you got my message. Thanks! David | ||
| Jakenok |
I can only gather that you live in a bizzaro world, where a loud bike pulls away and other guys start rubbing their crotches and gyrating.} How odd... I have three bikes, one has a non stock muffler, the Buell. The V&H can on it is not that loud, compared to some of the Metric sport bikes I hear running around. I don't know of anyone or have seen anyone doing what you described....The thing is though, different strokes for different folks. Some people like quiet, some don't mind loud. If the places you ride are so condeming of personal choice on how to build a bike, maybe you need to hang out at different places. Sounds like groupthink has taken over where you hang. } (Message edited by jakenok on October 17, 2011) | ||
| Rick_a |
IMO, a proper race style exhaust/muffler sounds great. It's the little "GP"-style fart cans and straight pipes that I find to be too much noise.
 As far as the 'Trapp, any of these are an option, it's whatever works best for the application that matters.    | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Yup, they're guilty too.
Either you don't pay enough attention, or you also live in bizzaro world.
This isn't about owners or what they like. It's about other people (non-riders). It's obvious that plenty of riders think the world revolves around them and they're oblivious to their surroundings.
You don't ride to gas stations, stores or neighborhoods? Even if you live in the middle of a corn field, somebody else out there can hear your bike and is voting against all of us because of it ('US' not, 'you'. 'Us' includes me too). Yes, your friends and neighbors are condemning. Admittedly, the V&H isn't the loudest exhaust out there but, it's pretty damn loud. It's obvious that many riders are too self-centered to consider that others might have to hear their creation. I really don't care about your bike but, the people you offend are voting against us. I have actually seen kids put their fingers in their ears. I've actually seen adults shaking their heads and stop conversations while some guy shows off his new fishtails. Loud pipes have created organizations like this: http://noiseoff.org/motorcycles.php Aww, hell, the people smart enough to get it, already do. If anybody wants a 2.5" inlet, aluminum V&H muffler with a fresh end cap and new FMF packing kit, you can have mine for $100 plus shipping. That will pay for the replacement stock muffler I bought on Ebay and it's half the price of a used V&H on there right now. Here it is installed on my S1W. This was the only trip that rattling POS ever took where it didn't annoy people.  | ||
| Guell |
A few of my neighbors have completed my bike on its sound and it is in no way quiet. I have a full kooks race system and it is loud. You run stock exhausts, and everyone else can run what they want. | ||
| Jakenok |
Greg, I think a Zero electric bike is what you need. Your "the sky is falling" mindset is tiring... Since its such a POS, I'll take that V&H off your hands for $50.00. Nice looking bike, BTW. I bet you are against wheelies too..... | ||
| Jakenok |
Oh, and "Noise Off" I thought I recognized that group of nanny state, hand wringers: they are the ones against homeowners using gas powered lawn equipment, motorcycles & car alarms, to mention a few. I dont think I have to tell you what most rationale people think of such buffons. | ||
| Ebutch |
Hey Greg It,s Time To Go Green!!!!You could First to Buy my Gov. Subsidized New Two-Wheeler. It, Quiet till you use Race-Package   | ||
| Db4570 |
Again, I agree with Greg. I keep hearing people talk about their loud bikes, and say things like "If other people want to judge me because of my personal choice, too bad for them." I am very grateful that most people don't have such a completely selfish attitude. It's not about your personal choice- it's about showing the most simple human decency to not go out of your way to disturb other people in a truly obnoxious way. Some people let their loud dogs bark incessantly. Some crank their gross music and don't care who it disturbs. Some think it's cool to have a stupidly loud motorcycle. They all have the same thing in common. They have an FU attitude to everyone else, and they are totally lacking in class. I never could figure out why, given a choice, some people opt to be total white trash. These people feel so insignificant and powerless in the rest of their lives that this is their only way to have any sort of influence over other people. How pathetic. Thank God there are enough moderately considerate people in the world to keep it livable. David | ||
| Jakenok |
Gee Greg, now we have gone from the simple"douche" to calling folks white trash. Some performance exhausts are loud by nature, some maybe too loud for off course use. Calling people names doesn't do anything but put you on the hand wringer list. I don't know you, but I think you'll find motorcyclists are a pretty independant bunch and telling them how f'd up they are and what they should do is going to go over like a turd in a punch bowl... | ||
| Fasted |
loud exhausts are so much like a turd filled punchbowl that there is now a law in california that outlaws aftermarket exhausts on that don't meet the noise code on new bikes. denver, boston, new york city, etc have also passed ordinances.....evidently, they don't like floaters in their libations, either. you guys are gonna do what you are gonna do, but don't delude yourself that the detractors are merely a small group of handwringers......when even south park uses an episode to point out the problem, then it is indeed a problem. think of loud exhausts as the loud party next door that keeps you from sleeping the night before a big test or a hard day of work. that is how annoying moto riders are perceived by the public.... btw, there are several reasons why the race cans say for race use only....one of the biggies is noise...  |
