| Author | Message | ||
     Buellisticx1 |
Has anyone installed a 1250 Kit With Iron Lined Aluminum Cylinders in their X1. I'm thinking to install it on my 99 X1, but I don't sure if it will works fine. Any suggestions?......... Thanks in advance | ||
| Phat_j |
i have the older version in my s2 with xb heads, and 536 cams...... and i love it..... only diff is no iron in my cyls, but axtel makes some good stuff, so i bet its all good. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Thanks for you reply, I wondering With Iron Lined Aluminum Cylinders is cheaper (780)than all-aluminum nik-a-sil plated Axtell cylinders ($1270.00)and if I will run with too heat(Iron Lined Aluminum Cylinders) and stronger and straighter than stock cylinders, I don't sure....... Do you Know if the stock cylinders are all aluminum?........, because I'm asking myself if I just rebore my stock cylinders and go with the next oversize or should I try the 1250 Kit With Iron Lined Aluminum Cylinders?........ Regarding 536 cams, I wanna also install them, but I'm wondering will I get problems with valve overlapping?...... Do I need to upgrade my valve springs?....... Can I expect any gains in torque or hp superior to stock size Hurricane pistons combined with 536 cams?........ Thanks for your tips. Regards. | ||
| Chasespeed |
I have the Iron Lined ones... been abused since the rings were seated. Extremely happy with mine.. 536s, you would be fine, need to upgrade springs. Chase | ||
| Grancuda |
I have the Millennium 1250 Cylinders and they seem to be doing fine. I have not read anything about the Millennium Cylinders, has anyone had bad luck with them? I have noticed that they are not advertised anywhere. | ||
| Phat_j |
stock cyls have iron sleves | ||
| Blake |
"I have not read anything about the Millennium Cylinders, has anyone had bad luck with them? I have noticed that they are not advertised anywhere." They are warranted for life and are a sponsor of this site via Revolution Performance. These are the same folks that Buell trusts to put the plating on the XBRR cylinders. They know their stuff. Their lifetime warranty speaks for itself. The subject iron lined cylinders are made in China and are NOT an Axtell product. Axtell recommends all aluminum cylinders with plated bores for use on Buell motorcycles. Best thing you can do is to talk to the folks at Trojan/Adrenalin Moto or Hillbilly Motors, more of our excellent sponsors. They are in Britain and Germany. respectively and would be thrilled to help you. They too are very knowledgeable with much racing experience. They know what works and what is durable. | ||
| Blake |
In the mean time, be sure to check out the 1250 Kit from Revolution Performance; it includes aerospace grade all-aluminum alloy cylinders with nickle-silicon-carbide plating complete with lifetime warranty, just $900. For me the extra $120 for the above lifetime warranted kit versus Chinese made iron lined cylinders is not even a contest. | ||
| Xldevil |
@Blake: HillBilly does not exist anymore as a Dealer.Didn´t they let you know? No major loss anyway. | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Translation, if it's not a from a sponsor it's crap. Blake, did you change the subject line of the thread? I don't remember the "chinese made" part being in there before. Buellisticx1, If you trust the iron sleeves more than the plated aluminum, then just stick with your stock cylinders. The extra 50cc isn't going to give you that much of a hp increase. The real advantage of the all aluminum cylinders is lighter weight and better heat transfer. IIRC there were some issues way back when with the plating systems but they now claim to have equal or better durability. I think all the bugs have been worked out. Bottom line, the extra 50cc is all you get with the iron lined cylinders so they're not really worth the money. However the additional benefits of the all aluminum jugs make could make them worth it as long as the durability is really on par or better than the stock units. From the numerous accounts of others on the board I think they are. (Message edited by not_purple_s2 on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Sloppy |
My understanding of the benefit of iron lined cylinders is they can be made to run at a tighter tolerance than aluminum due to lower thermal expansion and hence have less blowby -- especially when the jugs are not at full temp. Another advantage was the iron has greater stiffness so it will bend / twist less than aluminum and hence give better sealing. The downside is that iron is heavier and doesn't transport heat as well but heat transfer is "typically" not an issue on the barrel. So, those are the theoretical differences (to my understanding), not sure what actual testing has come up with. My theory would be that for road racing you'd want aluminum, but for drags you'd want iron barrels. Bottom line: ONLY work with a retailer that has EXTENSIVE experience with Buells. Also have well defined goals as to what you want and be ready to finance those goals. | ||
| Blake |
Xldevil, Names may change, but the good people and products will hopefully endure. I am aware of the situation at Hillbilly Motors. Curtis (Not Purple S2) "Translation, if it's not a from a sponsor it's crap." Please don't put words into my mouth. I usually say exactly what I mean. If I think that any product, sponsor or no, is "crap", I will state exactly that in plain simple words for all to understand. For instance, I think your post is crap in that it is unhelpful and insulting, implying that my integrity and that of BadWeB is for sale; it detracts from and harms the thread. See like that. So please remember that if we don't have something thoughtful to add to a discussion, it is best for all and the board in general that we simply avoid posting. Back on topic: A lifetime warranty speaks for itself. I'd think that using the same type of all aluminum alloy cylinder and bore plating system as virtually all the advanced high performance motorcycles on the markt would also speak well of the use of the plated cylinders versus old tech two-piece iron sleeved versions. Sloppy, I think that you have it backwards wrt tolerances. If the piston and cylinder are both 100% aluminum alloy, then it follows that they would expand at roughly the same rate and thus require less sloppiness in tolerancing, especially when the cylinder is not yet fully warmed. No matter what metal/alloy they are composed of, if the cylinders are well-engineered, they will be plenty stiff and provide excellent sealing. Heat transfer is a huge issue in the combustion chamber and therefore in the cylinder or }barrel} as you say. Note the cooling fins on all air-cooled H-D/Buell cylinders. Axtell themselves recommend the plated bore all-aluminum alloy cylinders for use in Buell motorcycles specifically because of the heat related issues. I cannot agree more with Sloppy's last recommendation. Please be sure the folks you listen to are folks with a lot of good experience in the high performance Buell engine arena. Ask them how many engines they personally specified and built and how many heads they've ported and cam profiles they've personally designed. Ask them for their qualifications, and how long they have been in the business. There are some ambitious folks out there who like to pretend they are experts with tons of experience, but are far from it. I have little such experience and I'm no expert. I'm fortunate to know a number of folks who are. (Message edited by Blake on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Sorry, let me correct that post. "Translation, if it's from China it's crap." Actually that often holds true. But there's at least one post here from a rider who's had a good experience with them. Blake, If you read the bottom half of my post you'll see that, in response to the opening question, we're both suggesting the same thing. We just have different reasons. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Translation, if it's from China it's crap." Some friends of mine visited China and said the same thing about 'Chinese' Chinese food. Apparently the best Chinese food in the world is in San Franscisco, not China. I heard some people say the same thing about Mexican food and San Antonio. | ||
| Sloppy |
Blake: The thought was that since aluminum expands at ~ twice the rate of iron that the piston would close the clearance faster between the piston and barrel than if the barrel were also made of aluminum. That, of course, would lead to other issues like the separation of the iron liner with the aluminum barrel... But the clearance is all temperature dependent anyways and who knows what the actual temperature is of the piston and barrel. And the expansion will be different if the piston is cast vs. forged, or if the piston is oil cooled (XB vs. XL), etc. I guess this is all mental masturbation at this point.  Hence, there are many variables that only extensive experience can find the right combination to get the package that you want... that is, as long as you know what you want... | ||
| Xldevil |
Names may change, but the good people and products will hopefully endureWho ever that has been at HillBillys.... From my point of view,only because someone was/is sponsoring BadWeb he does not self-evident or automatically belong to the good people. | ||
| Blake |
"Sorry, let me correct that post. "Translation, if it's from China it's crap." I didn't say that either. Here's an accurate translation if you must have one: The topical iron-lined cylinders are made in China. I prefer all-aluminum alloy cylinders with the nickle-silicon-carbide bore plating over any others, especially if they are made in America and come with a lifetime warranty. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
I have seen the trouble on my thread, but I just wanted to know what kit 1250 is better. I don't like to see buellers fighting among themselves. All seek what is best for his bike. My doubt remains unresolved, even though, I agree with Blake. Thanks for all your help. Regards. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Jstfrfun |
In all of this there were a couple of snipets of logic...aluminum is lighter than iron...50cc is not much better. It seems that the weight off the top end would be a good thing. not too sure of the 50cc gain. My 1200 w Andrews cams and a race ECM straight kicks ass!!! | ||
| Jstfrfun |
BTW I hear the chinese can cook up a real good DOG barbeque!  | ||
| Djkaplan |
...50cc is not much better. It's not just a displacement boost. A larger bore also give gives astute tuners room to unshroud valves and promote smoother (and somethimes more) flow. Those 50cc's aren't going to hurt, either. | ||
| Jeffreyh |
Anybody thinking of buying revperf cylinders REALLY ought to go over to the vtwin forum and spend some time reading about them. Revperf cam on their selling them a few years ago through their dealer gmr. People we all exited and lots of kits were bought. Then people started having failures of the plating left and right. Gmr quite selling them. Some people changed their cyls 1, 2, 3 times then finally changed to AXTELL or HYPERFORMANCE. Just go over there and read some of the threads on those cyls and see how people got so frustrated or better yet post that you'd like info on revperf cylinders and watch what happens. http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-engine-mo ds/ I posted this on the blast board once but now it's gone. You going to delete it this time too? The management here seems very biased to me. Would you be slamming these other cyls and making them out to be inferior if they were a sponsor too? Somehow I don't think so. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
How big can you bore out the stock jugs? How thick is the iron? | ||
| Phat_j |
my momma taught me to not say anything if you dont have something nice to say.. so, i'll remain silent unless you really wanna know, feel free to pm me. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
My take on this is , the chinese industrial system is what the japanese was back in the 60s, very inexpensive and disposable. At my age I remember the phrase "Jap Crap", they have since become a very respectable industrial power. The chinese industry simply needs more time to elevate it's quality level... with many products, not just the ones being discussed, but across the board with alot of products being offered here. On the other hand we all enjoy the liberty to spend our money and investigate on our own. | ||
| Madduck |
My take on this is that the wheels on the new 1125R are also made in China. If they weren't blue I would have bought it anyway. Sad to discover I am not the sort of person who rides around on a mototcycle with blue wheels. Too many years of watching those Smurf shows with nephews and their kids. | ||
| Chasespeed |
Regardless, I have these jugs, and have for a year and a half... NO PROBLEMS.. and I am NOT gentle with my stuff. 18 months, and probably 12-14k on them... no worries..... Chase | ||
| Jeffreyh |
Read these threads before buying revperf cyls!!! http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-engine-mo ds/124649-knocking-rev-perf-98-a.html http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-engine-mo ds/121283-another-98-thread.html http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-engine-mo ds/122616-124-revolution-performance-kit.html http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/v-twin-engine-mo ds/122571-no-more-4-25-bores-stock-cases.html Hear's some of the things their saying: "I bought a 124" from GMR and it went to hell in a hand basket 3 times... YES 3TIMES... On the bright side I got a total of 2,300 miles from 3 different RP 124" kits... Oh did I forget to mention I know of 6 others with the 124" kit that didn't last much longer than mine..." "You bought into one of the biggest flops in recent history..." "Do a search on REV Performance. Sadly, a cople of the threads have been deleted. But the basic "Jist" is that there are some serious issues with the Cylinders." "Yes give Andrew a call he'll exchange them for a new set LIKE HE DID FOR ME 3 DIFFERENT TIMES One time Revolution Performance sent the wrong pistons and another time they sent pistons to small for the bore? What's up with that $hit? Question is who's paying for the rest of the parts and labor if your not doing the labor yourself. There are numerous posts on the problems Revolution Performance has had and is still having with there kits, move on." Read fast, they'll probably delete this post too! | ||
| Hurricaneleah |
Buellistic, another option I have used is Advanced Sleeve out of Mentor Ohio. They have sleeved stock cylinders for me with a forged aluminum alloy sleeve (can't remember the alloy at the moment), which I then send to millennium to get plated. I have had great success with them. I run them in my drag bike X1 as well as my XB road racer as true 3.5000 bore 1204cc engines. I'm sure you could easily punch it out to 1250cc. to me, its worth sticking with the stock bore so i can use stock XB9 pistons (in a 1200). The bores have remained perfectly straight after 3 seasons road racing, with absolutely none of the 4 finger light scoring you see with a steel liner. The only issue i have had is probably a bit of my own doing. I had them bore my sleeved cylinders to 3.5000". in hindsight, all the stock cylinders i have measured have come in at 3.4991-3.4996. No problems at all when running stock XB9 pistons, but when i ran Wiseco forged pistons, I had a little bit of piston slap noise (about 0.0042 piston to cylinder clearance). A stock piston running a loose clearance like this is quiet. I'm on my second season of drag racing with that particular engine, and its still noisy but still making good power. I have run wiseco's in stock cylinders with no noise present, so my guess is the Wiseco piston was probably developed around the slightly smaller stock cylinder and the expansion rates associated with the dissimilar piston/liner material. I have been very happy with Advanced Sleeve, might be worth checking out...I'm not familiar with the 1250 pistons you are going to use, but in hindsight i would run a tighter clearance (maybe .0035 or so) on a forged 1200 Wiseco piston with aluminum Advanced Sleeves. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
I've been seeing a few posts on Vtwin forum like said Jeffreyh and there is too many negative experiences out there from Revolution Performance, I would not like that it happen to me, but don’t know if the issues they’ll be similar on 1250 kit for Buell, the incidents give people food for thought, In any case Chasespeed have the Iron Lined ones and he is Extremely happy with them, 18 months, and probably 12-14k on them... no worries....., I'm not sure yet. Perhaps the best option is rebore my stock cylinders and go with the next oversize (with Hurricane forged pistons) Thanks to all for your ideas. Regards. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on June 03, 2008) |
