| Author | Message | ||
     Silas_clone |
Anybody try this thing? http://www.aeincorporated.com/kastar/?page=show_it em_detail&id=35&qs=cGFnZT1jYXJ0 | ||
| Jos51700 |
It's similar in operation to the factory tool. I've been meaning to buy one. The only significant difference is the ratchet handle, which should speed things up considerably. It has to be better than prybars and tow trucks and all the other methods of isolator removal that I've heard about. | ||
| Dfbutler |
I bought one of these to use to replace a broken drive belt on my 99 S3 I spent, with the help of a couple of mechanically inclined friends, several hours trying to pry the frame apart to get the belt through with no success. The instructions are not very comprehensive. Sent it to the dealer to the tune of a couple hundred dollars the new belt was installed. I think they they dropped the swing arm to do it. It may work on some other tubers. If you want to buy mine, PM me and you can have it for half price plus shipping. | ||
| Aaomy |
hey works on the s2 and s2t????? hmmmm,, why not just unbolt the side plate???? oh well.. | ||
| Cyclonemduece |
i dont get it is the tool only needed if you dont want to remove the swingarm to change a belt wtf? | ||
| Mikej |
The service manual mentions using a "frame spreader" when replacing isolators or when replacing a belt, this tool is to accomodate that process for folks who don't have access to or folks who's local dealer won't order service manual specified tools for them. At least I think that is the process mentioned in the service manual, I misplaced my manual several years ago. | ||
| F_skinner |
I sure would like to see how that tool works because for the life of me I cannot visualize how it would allow the removal or replacement of the isolators. Any body have the instructions or a picture to help me out. Frank | ||
| Xldevil |
After 42k kilometers the belt of my M2 Cyclone gave up. While there is no detachable frame part on a M2 or S1,you got to spread the frame to remove the isolator and to get the new belt in. I used the Belt wizard. An excellent tool!I can really recommend it. To change the belt was done within 15 minutes. Ralph http://www.luckyhands.de/tools.html | ||
| Mikej |
How does that work? | ||
| Jos51700 |
The belt wizard is a different method for the same procedure. The rear isolator (Puck, from here on), has a raised ring on the outside flat surface, that fits into a recess on the frame. Spreading the frame lifts the frame away from the engine side, creating a gap so the puck can fall out (it's essentially wedged in place, because of the puck on the other side.) The puck has to come out so the belt can slip out between the frame and the engine assembly. X1's had a removable sideplate, and so do not require frame spreading. The tool is good because it prevents over-spreading of the frame. Up to a point the frame will return to it's original position (memory), but after a certain point it won't. This is bad because this area of the frame is not bolted to the motor assembly. The puck bolts to the swingarm mount (which is bolted to the motor), and the spring tension of the frame is what keeps the raised rings on the pucks in the grooves on the frame. If you look at your bike, you'll see the puck bolt in the frame hole, and the groove around the inside of the puck hole (that sounds pretty bad....) | ||
| Jos51700 |
Belt wizard saves time because the spreader tool obstructs removal of the belt. You use the tool, remove the puck, remove the tool, and remove/install the belt, then install the tool, then install the puck, and remove the tool. Belt wizard allows the tool to be removed very quickly, and the factory tool only uses a wrench to turn it a short amount, so it's a million wrench turns to install/remove it. The factory tool will not mar any surfaces, and I've heard (Not KNOW, but HEARD) that the belt wizard can damage paint and chew up the swingarm block surfaces. I'm interested DfButler's Kastar tool mentioned earlier, if it's not spoken for. (Message edited by jos51700 on January 29, 2008) (Message edited by jos51700 on January 29, 2008) | ||
| F_skinner |
Jos51700, thanks for the explanation, good write up, I understand a lot better now. I would like to try the Belt Wizard but did not see ordering info on the web site and I cannot speak or read German. I wonder if it is available in the US anywhere? I am getting ready to replace the isolators on my 98 S1W. I have an extra swingarm and swingarm mount so I was hoping to do an easy swap out (although I know it will not be easy). The information on the BadWeb and ATC have been invaluable to me. (Message edited by f_skinner on January 29, 2008) | ||
| Silas_clone |
I spoke with Al at American Sport Bike. He suggested the Kastar tool. I ordered one. I was thinking about this operation for a while. Great bike, but working on it is quite an adventure. I hope this tool actually works Full report later. | ||
| Tombo |
The ATC method allows you to change isolators or belts without spreading the frame. I have used this method a few times, in fact, my bike was the original test mule for this and recommend this approach. But if you want to use a spreader be conservative and avoid over spreading. Once you remove one isolator the other can be removed without spreading (remove both sides at once and you will only have to spread the frame one time. The removable plate on the X1 really should have been used on all the frames. | ||
| Guell |
Tombo, whats the atc method? | ||
| Jos51700 |
I believe the ATC method is the method described in the S1 service manual in the Knowledge Vault. Essentially, raise the frame off of the motor/swingarm assembly. It's the easier method if you don't have the spreader, but it does involve alot more disassembly and labor. In order to replace both isolators with a spreader, the rear tie-bar needs to be removed, and a few incidentals, but that's it. It's 6 of one, half dozen of the other, really. The spreader tool was released because the S1 manual method is time consuming and is much easier with more than two hands. The spreader is a one-guy gig. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The ATC method is to separate the swingarm support block from the back of the engine. Done properly, it deforms nothing other than the isolators and doesn't stress the front isolator the way the S1 manual method that lifts the frame does. The tool is NOT a frame spreader. It does NOT bend the frame, or at least not much. Rather, it squishes the isolator on the far side enough to allow the isolator on the close side to drop out. The cross member on the frame will not allow the frame to deflect all that much, and deflecting the frame more than a little is something you DON'T want to do. If someone was using the tool WITHOUT removing the rear heim joint, well, they would get nowhere fast. It would prevent the very compression of the isolator on the far side that is the goal of the tool. Al (Message edited by al_lighton on January 29, 2008) | ||
| Xldevil |
The ATC method is way too much effort just to change a belt or the rear isolators. If you are going to service the swingarm bearings anyway,the ATC method is a good thing. The belt wizard can be ordered here http://www.luckyhands.de/kontakt.html Ralph | ||
| Silas_clone |
Al, do you have to disconnect all of the heim joint links or just the rear one? "...If someone was using the tool WITHOUT removing the rear heim joint, well, they would get nowhere fast. It would prevent the very compression of the isolator on the far side that is the goal of the tool." | ||
| Jos51700 |
The S/M that specifies the frame-spreading tool gives a figure for the frame deflection that is not to be exceeded, I wish I had it handy. I've measured varying frame deflection on them (They were different models, and I don't remember which ones measured more or less). Al is right, there's a significant amount of puck compression (if you look at the recess in the frame for the raised ring on the puck, it's considerably deeper than that raised ring). I've had one with failed rear isolators that were so failed, frame spreading (well, technically on this one, puck compression) for removal was done by hand. Only the rear link is undone with the frame spreader. | ||
| Buellsrule |
Hello all, I'll post pictures later this week of some very inexpensive isolator compression tools that I made using easily obtainable parts(no spreading of the frame required). You simply compress the isolators and slide the swingarm back in place. This makes the job easy but you do have to drop the swingarm to change the belt. I can do the belt change in 2-3 hours. With the right tools, it's an easy job. Frank. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
it's an easy job Easy enough to be a one man job? If not, what exactly do the 2nd set of hands do? I'm hoping to get at least another season out of my isolators/belt but don't really have a set of helping hands nearby... I also do not like the idea of spreading the frame and am willing to put another hour or two into the job to not have to do so (I work cheap so the extra labor doesn't bother me!), but I don't want it to turn into a wrestling match with bloodied hands and a chipped up frame! | ||
| Buellsrule |
Yep, I can do it all by myself. No problem. Here's how it works: 1. Raise bike with centerstand or lift/support from above. 2. Remove rear wheel, muffler, shock and rear fender. 3. Support engine by strapping it to the frame. 4. Remove engine/swingarm block bolts. 5. Remove isolator bolts. 6. Swingarm will slide down and rearward. 7. Remove isolators from frame, put the new isolators on frame with compression "pieces"(homemade). 8. Slide swingarm and attached engine block mount back into place(may need to use a floor jack on engine base to align all holes with isolator bolts). 9. Finish reinstalling all pieces. 10. 2-3 hours max. No bleeding, no cursing, nothing. Ride safe, Frank. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I'm surprised at how many ways can accomplish one job that was fixed, once and for all, buy a couple bolts and slight redesign! Using any of the spreader tools mentioned, I've done the job in MAX, hour and a half. The rear tie-bar is, for me, the most awkward part of it. I'm not afraid to use the frame-spreaders now, but the first dozen or so, I was really sweating the "what if I screw this guys frame up" scenario, until I finally looked at how it all worked. I'm interested to see more ways to do it! Something about necessity and how it begat invention...... | ||
| Hughlysses |
No bleeding, no cursing, nothing. Well, I'd caveat that with "Your results may vary." I changed the ones on my S3 this way a couple of years ago, and it went OK, but there was definitely some bleeding and cursing involved. Someone has mentioned here before that these gizmos are not really "frame spreaders". The tuber frame has a horizontal member near the rear that basically makes it impossible to spread the frame. What they do is compress the rubber isolator on the opposite side, leaving room for the isolator on the tool side to fall out. Once one isolator is out, there's plenty of room for the other one to come out. If/when I get around to changing the belt on my S3, I think I'll invest in one of the tools before using the "drop the swingarm" method again. | ||
| Jos51700 |
"Someone has mentioned here before that these gizmos are not really "frame spreaders". The tuber frame has a horizontal member near the rear that basically makes it impossible to spread the frame. What they do is compress the rubber isolator on the opposite side, leaving room for the isolator on the tool side to fall out. " Measure it and see... Both occur. | ||
| Hughlysses |
John- I believe you. I guess the main thing is these tools spread/compress things enough to get an isolator out without permanently tweaking the frame, which you could easily enough do with a big-ass pry bar, Porta-power or whatever. | ||
| Oldskoolef |
When I replaced the isolators on my M2 I used the new style that have the extended, angled flange on the inside of them. I had no problems at all with them. They basically compress themselves when you push the frame down over the swingarm support block. Be very careful with the threads in the swingarm adjuster bolts. They are so easy to cross thread and much more difficult to fix afterwards. I don't know if it made a difference but all of the heim joint links were disconnected at the time. I had just had the frame freshly powdercoated and was reassembling the bike. | ||
| Tombo |
Al, is correct about the AFC method,it is very different than the method described in the earlier service manuals. You do need to make a set isolator compression tools (just some bolts and large washers basically). As Jos suggests, the frame does indeed spread, although not much. We measured the compression of the isolator and the spread of the frame when testing different methods and most of the movement occurs in the compression of the opposite side isolator, but ultimately the frame does spread a small amount, and "hopefully" returns to its original position. | ||
| Mikej |
Working in an engineering environment most of my working life, can one of you tell me how much the frame spreads in dimensional numbers? Inches or millimeters is fine. I know it ain't much, but how long is a much? 1/4", 1/2", .050", 2mm? |
