| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
Sami, you’ve thoroughly killed that strawman, and are now mutilating the corpse. No one claims space is a perfect vacuum. No one. | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, so you cannot explain what keeps the speed of light constant. There is no reason, apart from drag demons, for C to be constant. Yes, Planck particles. Not angels. Angels are, by the definition of the word, spiritual beings. Particles are not spiritual beings. Conflating the two is a category error. Jeff, I didn't say that. Vacuum, perfect or imperfect, does not exist in nature. What makes you say that space is a vacuum? What is the the energy density of space? | ||
| Hootowl |
Uh, particle density? The definition of a vacuum? | ||
| Hootowl |
If you can’t grasp that, I’m going to step out of this conversation. | ||
| Ebutch |
 | ||
| Sami |
Jeff, I do grasp that. So please answer if you don't mind. | ||
| Hootowl |
I did answer. See previous post. | ||
| Sami |
Yes, what is it? Give us a numerical answer, please. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/what-is-a-vacu um Not numerical, practical. And I don't know why you think an atmospheric phenomena like drag demons has anything to do with vacuums. I told you, they get dizzy and can't grip. Although you can measure the impacts as the poor deeevels bounce off you. Also no idea why you think I think the speed of light is constant. The speed of green is irrelevant to it's color, that's a vibratory energy state. But that energy state is defined. And in finer subdivisions by some than others. I mean Seafoam? My question was in long form, "if light requires a medium, then what is it?" and your answer is an imaginary particle based on the speed of light. So it might as well be angels. Who are common if archaic metaphorical allusions to often recursive phenomena. Pin head dancing. Based on the speed of light, Planck particles are. IF the speed is constant, then so is their size. I don't know how to measure that, off the top of my head. Have to ponder it. Time was once defined by, and still commonly measured with, gravitational power. Pendulum and water clocks. We now can determine the difference in pendulum swings between Death Valley and the Eiger. Shadows from the relative motions of the sun, also gravitational, aren't accurate enough. So we now use color. Based on the vibratory frequency of a very specific color of light, created in many watches by an excited crystal. Insert excited crystal jokes here.  You can see how self referential this all is. You determine speed by using color. But color isn't what Determines speed, it's a reference for time which is half the speed equation. In fact I'm on record here as commenting we have not yet established How Local the speed of light is, yet. Too small a sample. Personally, my definitions of vacuum are usually very much grosser than quantum stuff. I go with industrial definitions in the lab, ( when I worked in one ) which are soft to hard. When in flight, I just care about Death Pressure, often "rule of thumb" at about 45,000 feet ASL. That's where breathing pure oxygen from a mask no longer can pass the membranes in the lungs. Some place it a bit higher,where blood boils at body temperature. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_limit In mountain climbing they have the Death Zone at about 8000 meters/26,000 feet, or twice as high as the Eiger, where pampered lowlanders can no longer get enough oxygen for long term survival. Highlander Tibetans, have adapted but even they don't Live on K2. In medicine, death pressure is a cardiac or hypertension term. Different subject. I don't normally have to worry much about Death Pressure altitudes, I'm in Eastern N. America where local cloud base is seldom much more than a mile up. I've never needed supplemental oxygen when soaring. I have had to wear oxygen gear at higher altitude in a balloon, took the USAF course and training. In their vacuum chamber. My bucket list includes high mountain Wave soaring, where 5000+ meters is possible, but I'm probably going to settle for memories of "getting kicked out of" a balloon when we couldn't get over 6400 meters with our load and as the heaviest one, was The normal choice for dropping ballast. Fell like an Anvil. But I'm just increasing Entropy. You're concerned with vacuum at the scale of spontaneous creation of particle pairs. Tiny Vacuum. Not practical, navigate spaceships vacuum. I'll agree that nothing doesn't properly describe stuff or lack therof, at that level. But in between? That's vacuum at improbability levels. My vocabulary is inadequate. | ||
| Hootowl |
“Yes, what is it? Give us a numerical answer, please” I’m sorry, I thought you meant the first question, the one I wouldn't have to google an answer for. You’re perfectly capable of doing so, so I figured it was the first question you wanted an answer to. If you want to know the energy content of space, look it up. I suspect you’ll find many answers, and a lot of guesses. It’s the answer to that question that brought about the idea of ‘dark matter’ because they detect more energy than the visible matter could account for. The math didn’t work so they invented compensating material. Some folks took them literally and believed in a dark matter particle. Some still do. | ||
| Sami |
Jeff, if the math didn't work, then throw out the math. It's garbage math. They didn't detect more "energy". They're lying to you. | ||
| Hootowl |
LOL OK. Motivation for lying? I know why the AGW crowd is lying, and I understand their motives. Beats me why a cosmologist would lie. All of them. What could they possibly stand to gain? Now, are they wrong? Maybe. The math doesn’t work, but that just means they aren’t using the right equation. The missing matter was their way of balancing it. It was a theory, they labeled the missing matter ‘dark’ because they couldn’t see it and set about trying to find it. They didn’t. Many have given up and decided the theory was bunk. That’s how science is supposed to work. Theories aren’t lies. | ||
| Hootowl |
Just noticed “energy” in quotes. You don’t believe in energy? Where are you from, Sami? Your “ancient wisdom” reference might make more sense if I knew your cultural background. Which culture’s ancient knowledge are we referring to? | ||
| Sami |
Jeff, who cares about theories. Burn them all down with fire for all I care. By now, you should understand that I don't care about theories. They're a dime a dozen, motivated by politics. The Chinavirus Plandemic is political. WHO is political. NASA is political. Theories are lies, sweet lies. Don't fall for sweet lies, Jeff. The world is full of sweet lies. | ||
| Sami |
Jef: "Just noticed “energy” in quotes. You don’t believe in energy? Where are you from, Sami? Your “ancient wisdom” reference might make more sense if I knew your cultural background. Which culture’s ancient knowledge are we referring to?" Correct, I don't believe in "energy". Truth is not bound by culture, truth transcends culture. That is why it's silly to say that math is racist, or music is racist. Math and music are universal, they transcend cultural boundaries. | ||
| Hootowl |
“Theories are lies, sweet lies” Theories are how scientists seek truth. Experimentation determines whether the theory is true. It’s part and parcel of the scientific method. I’m amazed you believe what you believe. I’m going to step away from this thread. I cannot have a meaningful discussion under that condition. | ||
| Sami |
Jeff, theories obscure truth. Experimentation determines nothing. Practice determines everything. | ||
| Aesquire |
Leeches were practice. Germs were theory. So I vehemently disagree. https://xkcd.com/2443/ | ||
| Aesquire |
Experimentation determines Practice. I just got back from a discussion on airplane wing design using foam. I'll skip all the irrelevant details to this thread, but after one wing panel is structurally done, but not painted, the builder plans to test the strength before his next step. Load Testing an aircraft wing of a new design is incredibly important. There are videos on Boeing & Airbus wing tests. Giant hydraulic cylinders and fixtures with the wing bending to a terrifying degree before it explodes/fails. He's doing it old school, and since I've done it 3 times on 3 different craft, I offered advice. Basically you lay sandbags out in a carefully calculated pattern and observe the results. Slowly. Carefully. Seriously, Sh#$ under thousands of pounds of stress can kill you. Cables become death whips. Rivets, bullets. on one test, To make measured weight sand bags, we used zip lock plastic bags, and ran out at 3am. You can just imagine the clerk's face when I run in to the 24 hour store at that hour and buy him out of gallon & quart plastic bags. Also imagine an airplane hanging upside down from a tripod of steel pipe with sandbags piled over a foot deep on the wings. Hail! Experiments! Btw, we got over 6G loading and it gets a bit exciting. Boeing evacuates the room. We just wore leather jackets and helmets. | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, leeches are still used today, they are often good practice, at least better than some of the other alternatives. Germ theory is not without its faults. Practical experiments are good. I have no issue with what you described, nothing wrong with that. Theoretical experimentation known as "thought experiments" is what I object to. Dark Matter, for example, is a thought experiment lacking practical application. | ||
| Aesquire |
I generally agree on Dark Matter. But it could be, a key to unlock the next level of reality, or an unnecessary complication like the epicyclic astronomy orbits. On a practical and philosophical view, I'm not going to reject an idea, just because it's Establishment Dogma, or just because it's heretical. That said, you show me a working gravity generator or reactionless drive, and I'm a convert! Or 6G, that's ok too. | ||
| Sami |
Blake, I watched the Veritasium video, and I agree with their conclusion that C is not a constant, it is a convention. The speed of light is simply defined as a constant, but we know from measurements that it is variable. One thing I noticed that the video got wrong (at 10:20 minutes) is claiming that: "The whole GPS system is based on the assumption that the speed of light is the same in all directions. If the speed of light is different in different directions, the light pulses from satellites will travel at different speeds so the clocks won't be properly synced." The first sentence is false, but the second sentence is true. That is, the whole GPS system is NOT based on the assumption that the speed of light is the same in all directions. The speed of light is different in different directions. The algorithms used to program the GPS satellite system make use of a variable speed of light, not a constant speed of light. Not many people know this, because not many people have studied the GPS system. One man who studied the GPS system for a living was Ronald Hatch: https://www.gps.gov/governance/advisory/members/ha tch/ This man basically spilled the beans on how the GPS satellite system is programmed with a variable speed of light. | ||
| Sami |
Patrick: "Also no idea why you think I think the speed of light is constant." Because you generally agree with Dark Matter. Dark Matter presumes the speed of light as constant. But the speed of light is not constant. So there is no reason to agree with Dark Matter. Planck particles fill in the "vacuum of space". Therefore, space is not a "vacuum". This is physics 101. You have drag demons holding light at a constant speed with a tight grip. But we know that is not the case, see the GPS satellite system that has been programmed with a variable speed of light, not with a constant speed of light. Practical experimentation, not thought experimentation, determines everything. | ||
| Aesquire |
Bullsh$+. That's in most cases the opposite of what I wrote. Your post is fundamentally dishonest. Bite my shiny metal ass. I'll give you the benefit of doubt on poor reading skills, and the ambiguity in the statement I made. "I generally agree on Dark Matter" meaning I generally agree with You on Dark Matter, Vs. Your statement "Because you generally agree with Dark Matter." Which is the Opposite statement by changing One Word. Every other attribution to me is false. It's there for all to read. There appears to be a fundamental principles difference here. I would rather be correct than win an argument. You appear to want to win so much the truth doesn't matter. I am willing to accept a sincere apology & the excuse you weren't paying attention or have language issues. | ||
| Court |
This thread, from the outset, has been akin to a Coney Island game of 3 Card Monte . . . the game has been words, not facts . . . which have been carefully manipulated. The load testing and plastic bag story is priceless. Right up there with buying an unlubricated condom for your Buell at 3am in a remote gas station in Pennsylvania. I actually had the opportunity, just last night, to engage in some of the most spirited and vibrant dialogue I have in a good long while. We had a couple over for dinner on the spur of the moment. He's a familiar name to many and a billionaire developer and the topic eventually turned to, you guessed it, politics and we had an absolutely hoot listening and responding to each others positions. Conversation and dialogue are more threatened, in the current day, that Dr. Seuss. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_particle Up front, Wikipedia is Absolutely Not the definitive Source of Man's Knowledge. ( I'm using the "modern English" term Man's as Mankind, not in an imagined Sexist way ) I throw in that disclaimer, since the tide of logical fallacies in this thread seem to be washing politeness into ad hominem attack levels, and while few here are feminazi language scolds, why not short circuit that lightning? Excuse my mangled metaphors.  Because the Wiki article is so limited, not covering the "theories" that Planck particles are the light transfer medium, or mentioning proof of their existence, I request clarification on those 2 points. Are Planck particles any more "real" than Dark Matter? How do we know? & What evidence is there that hypothetical particles are the medium light requires to move. ...... The duality of waves & particles is confusing to many. Quantum mechanics is bizarre. Sound requires a medium to travel through. Air, water, rock, fire, all carry sound waves. ( the Classical Elements ) Sound is a wave phenomena that exists at the molecular level, where movement is transferred from particle to particle by electron shell repulsion, like the Newton's Cradle toy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_cradle Sound is Not a particle phenomena. There is no "noise" particle. It's vibration on a gross physical level. You can feel it if loud enough. Sound is a Pressure phenomena. Light is not the same. IF light needs a medium to exist in and travel through, as ancient Aether theory said, then, sure, lots of assumptions need to be revised. Planck particles are not the electron/positron spontaneous creation/destruction phenomena that seems to exist in a vacuum, ( making it, temporarily, not a vacuum, or absence of matter, then "restoring" that absence on a Very Local & Very Short Time scale ) because Electrons are too big. Re: Dark Matter. Dark Matter is a hypothetical substance and force invented to try to reconcile the guesses on how much stuff is in the Universe, and the motions of Galaxies, shoved about by gravity. you may make a case that there is a sea of Planck particles everywhere and the mass of a near infinite number of quantum black holes in quantum time scales is responsible for the calculated mass of the Universe. That Substitutes one hypothetical for another... PP for Dark Matter. Or you could point to the observation by deep space probes crawling away from Sol, that there is more stuff out there than we thought, and speculate that our guesses for the mass of the Universe are therefore inaccurate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_mediu m In October 2020, astronomers reported a significant unexpected increase in density in the space beyond the Solar System as detected by the Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 space probes. According to the researchers, this implies that "the density gradient is a large-scale feature of the VLISM (very local interstellar medium) in the general direction of the heliospheric nose".[6][7] ..... Thorndike (1930) noted that "it could scarcely have been believed that the enormous gaps between the stars are completely void. Terrestrial aurorae are not improbably excited by charged particles emitted by the Sun. If the millions of other stars are also ejecting ions, as is undoubtedly true, no absolute vacuum can exist within the galaxy." | ||
| Aesquire |
Right up there with buying an unlubricated condom for your Buell at 3am in a remote gas station in Pennsylvania. A Navy Seal I know tells a story... The Seals are very well equipped. But often are out beyond any logistics resupply, and have adopted several field expedient substitutes for Issue equipment. Swimming in warm waters makes traditional wetsuits too warm and confining. But naked pale skinned legs are very visible in shallow waters. So black panty hose may be used as camo. The standard issue detonator control is supposed to be waterproof. But sometimes isn't. So an unlubricated condom is used to ensure function. Medical supplies run out quickly, and reasonably sterile substitutes are commonly available as feminine hygiene products. This last is of special interest to Me, since I too often find myself as First Responder to an accident. Knowing that Seals successfully use self adhesive Pads as bandages, and tampons to temporarily plug bullet holes, is practical knowledge for me. Further, it can be a Tell that a special forces team is in your area, when someone buys a bunch of bandages. So... If a Seal team is in some 3rd world port, and gets a mission to plant explosives or commit some other unfriendly act, & requires "discrete resupply", a visit to the local pharmacy may be needed. Imagine a clerk... A male, muscular stranger comes in, and buys a dozen Queen size panty hose, a large pile of tampons and maxi-pads, and a case of Condoms, unlubricated, large. | ||
| Aesquire |
Court, when near the end of my 27 years on the job, I found myself too crippled to work and do the physical activity I was accustomed to, I felt rather depressed. So I got counselling. Nice young lady, starting her own business after working in the prison system. Before my first appointment, the local Union President pointed out to me that I had enough years to retire, and did. I felt ever so much better. But I had committed to counseling, and went. First, this very nice young lady was operating on the false impression that I was depressed, because I was retired. While actually I was depressed because of work pressure and lack of accustomed activity. Second, she really couldn't comprehend that I was unhappy because I couldn't do full contact martial arts, couldn't go out every week and beat my friends with sticks. I suspect the concept of self importance and risk sports, physical violence and pushing the envelope, was foreign to her upbringing. Finally, she told me I needed a hobby, or job, to occupy my time. Very true! "So, what are you going to do?" She asked. "I think I'll build an airplane" I replied. "Oh, you can't do that!" She exclaimed. " why not? I've built 3. " stunned silence. Nice lady, I wish her luck. Just the wrong person to help me. | ||
| H0gwash |
The entropy of language and meaning and deconstructivism can be interesting, it's just that in this case it's not. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://web.archive.org/web/20150511234144/http:// www.joke-archives.com/poetry/deteriorata.html I do humbly apologize for intemperate language. I was too easily irritated by perceived whatever. I've always found the Deteriorata inspirational. It's view of Entropy... |
