| Author | Message | ||
     Sifo |
All life on Earth is still related. It's all based on a very similar double helix of DNA composed of the same 4 components. If you ever study all that is required for a simple cell to replicate the DNA helix, it's really incredible that something so complicated came into being. As Torquehd stated, "Life from inorganic matter by accident is mathematically improbable to the point of impossibility." Many scientists have come to this realization. It's one thing to imagine a strand of DNA randomly assembling itself and something happens that sparks life. That is a greatly simplified version of it, but it is the 10,000 foot view, so to speak. But what happens to that new living cell when all of the organic material needed for a cell to replicate, simply doesn't exist yet? Those things don't exist yet because they are a product of life. That's one of the miracles of life. Without life, all of the supporting organic material isn't yet produced. How did the first living cell survive and multiply without all of that? It's a riddle we haven't solved yet. We also haven't solved the "spark" that brought inanimate organic material to become living cells. For all that science has provided, science has a lot of "and then something happened" moments. The moment when "something happened to nothing" to create the universe is another glaring example of this. | ||
| Ourdee |
The moment when "something happened to nothing" to create the universe is another glaring example of this. And it becomes easy to explain those moments with God Did It. My question is, "Where did God come from?" I know, Always existed. But still..... | ||
| Big_island_rider |
1 - Not enough information but believe in the possibility. 2 - "When we die, our bodies become the grass" -Mufasa 3 - Not enough information but believe in the possibility. Two of these questions are about concepts outside ourselves. Always preferred introspective questions. My favorite set from a TV show are: Who are you? What do you want? Why are you here? Where are you going? Do you have anything worth living for? | ||
| 86129squids |
Fun thread! I like Vern's questions too.  Per question #2... I listened to a radio show earlier today about the advent and early efforts of those who conceived of cryogenics. They thought of death itself as possibly just another "disease" that could be cured, potentially by the future's medicine. So, several folks went ahead and had themselves frozen in liquid nitrogen upon their death. The whole thing kinda creeped me out. Fact is, we're working on similar fixes already with stem cell tech and CRISPR, sure would like to grow me a new pancreas. Having been an avid science fiction fan for years, if cryogenics actually became viable and worked, methinks we'd all be screwed. The implications are staggering. | ||
| Aesquire |
Larry Niven's "A World Out Of Time" in his State series covers a scary possibility for cryogenic patients. Skipping details & spoilers, the core concept relevant here is.... What will A future government do with a bunch of corpsicles? People with no rights, who are asking for healthcare from future generations? Any taxes they paid are long spent. Any fortunes stashed for a future life would be claimed by relatives. "Why shouldn't I have dead Uncle Pete's millions? Selfish jerk is stealing our wealth because he's crazy." Illegal immigrants today, frozen dead tomorrow, neither worked for the taxes to pay for healthcare or welfare or other benefits the current generation pays for. They are trusting in both advances in technology and a nigh unlimited utopian economy to save them. The Novels are great Hard SF, and highly recommended. The ethical issues are meant to be warnings. Niven's Known Space series raises questions about transplants. If a murderer can be disassembled for parts, saving more people than he harmed, isn't that an ethical form of Justice? Extrapolate that to lesser crimes getting capital punishment sentences to feed the healthcare system. Obama care just had killing off the old folk to save money as a hidden ethical choice. Breaking people up for parts is only logical. And in fact..... Is done today in China, Iran, and the U.S. Underground organ black markets exist, now. "Organlegging" in Niven's books. See also buying kidneys and Planned Parenthood sales of baby parts. | ||
| Torquehd |
My question is, "Where did God come from?" I know, Always existed. But still..... I think that's a great, worthwhile question. I'm intrigued by prehistory. By prehistory, I mean before, "In the beginning, God...." I think it's fascinating. I think time didn't exist until "the beginning". But what about "before" that? If time as a concept didn't exist, how would that look? Did everything that has and will occur, occur indefinitely with no fixed duration or limits? Or had nothing truly "happened" "yet"? Had God already created heavenly beings? Someday, I suppose I will find out. I have a Chinese bible, I like the way it translates from Chinese to English. Genesis 1:1 would say roughly, Originally, God created Heaven and Earth. The earth was empty(or meaningless) primordial chaos. The depth was dark, the spirit of God moved on the water. | ||
| Ourdee |
Or.... Does God move from our ending to beginning. Do we actually live in reverse of what we perceive or think? He knows our beginning from the end. | ||
| Ourdee |
It would explain the back history in quantum physics being changed based on the presence of an observer. | ||
| Ourdee |
Or simpler and faster: | ||
| Ourdee |
The knower..... | ||
| Torquehd |
Do we actually live in reverse of what we perceive or think? Reminds me of, "Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58 Or, My existence and presence here today occured before something that happened a long long time ago. After doing some more research, I believe God had already... created? differentiated? established separation from? Jesus. There are a good few verses saying things like all things were created through Him, and that He is the firstborn of creation, and that Jesus had glory before the world began. However, "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". So I'm assuming Jesus was already in existence in some form before time began, as in natural law nothing can occur before the beginning. | ||
| Ourdee |
Jesus and God are one. | ||
| Zac4mac |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnxkfLe4G74 <edit> Youtube is playing the whole album.... Moving Pictures IIRC... :0 (Message edited by zac4mac on June 29, 2019) | ||
| Ratbuell |
That link brought up Freewill for me. God gave us free will, so we can choose - light or dark, good or evil. Forcing Man into an option, isn't a choice and it doesn't create any case for reward versus punishment. Giving us the choice - giving us the option - is what allows and enables the reward. Heaven is not a Participation Trophy - it must be chosen, and it must be earned. The value lies within the choice. The Participation Trophy...is our life here on earth. THAT is what we all get, just for being us, just for being Man. What we do with our life, is what earns us our true rewards. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Heaven is not a Participation Trophy - it must be chosen, and it must be earned. Joe- I realize it's impossible to encapsulate one's beliefs in a brief statement, but the above goes against everything I've been taught and believe as a Christian. We CAN'T earn it. It's a gift you have to accept. Back to the more fundamental points raised in the initial questions- Here's the thing that really convinced me of the existence of a Creator. ~25 years ago I participated in a compressed curriculum in Environmental Engineering over an ~8 week period. One of the classes was on toxicology as it relates to the effect of environmental pollutants on living things. We spent a day going over the processes in living cells. I'd been through high school biology and knew the basic structure of a cell- nucleus, membrane, protoplasm, etc. On that day we really dug into what goes on in cells, and it was completely mind-boggling. Every cell in an animal's body is of the level of complexity of the largest chemical plant you've ever driven past. They had a 3-D illustration that really drove this home. Now, as an engineer, that really made me see that it was beyond belief that something of such complexity, which is capable of self-replication, happened by random chance. Even if you accept a pure physics explanation for the Big Bang, formation of stars, coalescence of solar systems, and formation of planets, there are so many infinitely unlikely steps required between "primordial soup" and even a single-celled organism, much less us, there HAD to be an Outside Agent involved. Now that doesn't establish the existence of a benevolent God, but it sure as hell strengthened my belief in Him. | ||
| Ourdee |
When I read "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution", by: Michael Behe. There was a thought put forward about evolution. For some of the evolution that some people want to believe in it would be like a bicycle evolving into a motorcycle. Were did the engine come from. Or the fuel tank, or the carb., or headlight, or shocks, or forks, or ..... | ||
| Sifo |
Now, as an engineer, that really made me see that it was beyond belief that something of such complexity, which is capable of self-replication, happened by random chance. Even if you accept a pure physics explanation for the Big Bang, formation of stars, coalescence of solar systems, and formation of planets, there are so many infinitely unlikely steps required between "primordial soup" and even a single-celled organism, much less us, there HAD to be an Outside Agent involved. Now that doesn't establish the existence of a benevolent God, but it sure as hell strengthened my belief in Him. This gets into the ideas behind the Intelligent Design theory. The theory doesn't get into who the designer is, but it's about the incredibly unlikely things that needed to happen for the simplest life forms to develop. Many acids and proteins that are needed that without life are too fragile to last for any significant length of time. So we have these very fragile organic proteins, that came from a process we don't understand, that would quickly breakdown if not protected in a living cell, that sit around long enough for a double helix to randomly assemble itself with the information needed for simple life, at which time something unknown sparks it to life. You are left with two choices. One is that the universe is set up where all these things just naturally happen, kind of like how gravity forms planets and stars from simple gases and dust. So far, science tells us that the universe is actually very hostile to the things needed to assemble life. This leaves the other choice, that there was an intelligence and design behind it all. Who the designer is isn't meant to be answered by the ID theory. Oddly, ID theory meshes quite nicely with the theory that we are living in a simulation. I keep wondering how simulation theory and Christianity mesh to those who have really studied both. | ||
| Ourdee |
I don't know Jack. The more I learn the more I know that I don't know Jack. I do have an inkling that the odds are too high that this living stuff didn't just put itself together. | ||
| Pwnzor |
OK.. you want proof. Is there a God? Yes. Go to Yosemite Valley and stand there between El Capitan and Half Dome. What happens when we die? Our bodies rot or burn. Our spirit, or what we think of as the spirit, goes back to where it came from - as One with the Maker. Prove me wrong. Are we alone in the Universe? - The only proof I can offer is the reasoned argument that it is folly to believe that God, having created EVERYTHING, created only US. God is definitely smart enough to keep us separated. | ||
| 86129squids |
"Now that doesn't establish the existence of a benevolent God, but it sure as hell strengthened my belief in Him." Well, sure as Hell. | ||
| 86129squids |
When I drive to work I repeatedly say Goddammit, You F#ckin Idiot. I hope I'm not judged by my words. They've kept me alive in the truck and on the bike. | ||
| Gregtonn |
For me it all goes back to this. "The more you know the more you know there is more you don't know."_Greg Tonn | ||
| 86129squids |
I was raised not to slander God's name. But it's too easy. Every now and then, I remember to say "God Bless it." It's a lot easier to curse than to bless. I keep trying to do better. | ||
| Ourdee |
The spoken word is powerful. At one point in time I used a grease pencil to write on my windshield in front of the driver's seat. "God's children, God's image" It slowed my roll. It put into perspective what I was looking at. Maybe I need to write on my current car's windshield? I keep a camera rolling with a microphone on me in the car. When I want to complain I see myself on screen and shut up. | ||
| 86129squids |
   That's awesome, RD! | ||
| Pwnzor |
I need to do that. | ||
| Aesquire |
"God's children, God's image" A "people at Walmart" picture website would then be a major recruiter for atheists. You can argue that the ugliness is entirely human caused, and extrapolate that to the Universe as a whole. Which is not a bad argument, despite the fact that raw nature is "red of tooth and claw".  | ||
| Whisperstealth |
1. I believe so. 2. I want my body ground up and fed to my dogs. A Last Supper for dogs if you will. 3. I believe life on other planets is certainly possible, and am open to the idea. (Message edited by Whisperstealth on July 01, 2019) | ||
| Pwnzor |
We are often caught up in - and indeed we are misled by our perceptions of how things look. We're wrong. We're all f**king wrong. We cannot judge people or things by their appearance. This is the work of Satan - Father of Lies, Destroyer of the world. He truly is the Lord of this world. We are only here for a moment, it is in fact HIM that is doomed to remain. | ||
| Gusm2 |
Isn't it such a shame that all of your organised religions are so incapable of doing the things that they are supposed to represent ie peace and love, I find it abhorrent the hatered and intolerance that survives to this day in our supposedly civilised world, it's all lies to feed greedy megalomaniacs and give weak minded people something to cling on to, I was brought up in a Christian family but by the age of about 14 was able to see through the web of deception and made up my own mind to turn my back on the whole charade, I'm not sorry (Message edited by gusm2 on July 19, 2019) |
