| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2018/december/ zero-electric-bikes-about-to-take-off/ | ||
| Ourdee |
I wish they had taken off about 10 years ago. I need parts to harvest now. | ||
| Airbozo |
I've been watching them for a while and have ridden all of the models. Years ago someone from Badweb setup a tour and we got the private version of that tour from Abe himself. After the tour, they basically let us loose on the bikes, so most of us got to ride any model we wanted. Whoever setup that tour, a grateful thank you and can we do it again? | ||
| Jaimec |
Zero's bikes from ten years ago share very little in common with the bikes they're producing now. Back then they were glorified motorized bicycles. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Expect car vs. electric bikes collisions to surge as well. No way in hell would I cruise around on a silent motorcycle. That's just asking for trouble with the distracted driving epidemic and general lack of common sense and driving skills of today's drivers (which will only get worse as the electronic driving band aids become more relied upon). | ||
| Ourdee |
I would love to take a factory tour of Zero! And then have a candy store experience with the goods. WOW  Dream job: Making house calls to service electric bikes. | ||
| Jaimec |
That whole "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" is BULLSHIT and in 2018 everyone should realize that by now. If you think a driver is LISTENING for you, you are going to hit someone real soon. He/she has his/her windows rolled up and is blasting their favorite rock/rap station while twiddling away on their cell phone. A BOMB could go off near them and they'd be completely unaware. Not only that, but every single State in the Union will grant a driver's license to the DEAF. Wear bright colors and PAY ATTENTION to the brain dead zombies around you and you'll live to ride another day. Loud exhausts have absolutely NOTHING to do with your safety and only piss off the law enforcement types who already make things difficult enough for us in many communities. | ||
| Ratbuell |
 Pay attention, and rely on YOURSELF. I refuse to rely on the other zombies on the road, to pay attention and notice me. And, physics - you don't hear a motorcycle until it passes you. Try it. In your car, if you see a motorcycle coming towards you, notice when you actually HEAR it. | ||
| Airbozo |
Jamiec: My father in law has mentioned to me several times that if it were not for the loud pipes on a couple of motorcycles, he would have hit them when changing lanes since they were riding in his blind spot. I personally have experienced the same thing several times as well, but I was almost hit until I blipped my throttle. My loud pipes have at least saved me a long vacation in a wheelchair, if not death. Do I think it always helps? No. Nothing is 100%. I do not depend on the noise coming from my bike to make sure people know I am there. I stay out of blind spots and as visible as possible, even if I have to change lane positions frequently to catch someones attention. Does it affect my intention to buy an electric motorcycle? No. Electric WILL be my next 2 wheel ride. I was seriously considering the Brammo Empulse until I bought my XB, but that option is gone for now. | ||
| 1313 |
Oh the irony... Abe was the first person to introduce me to Chicken Quesadillas, or Quesadillas of any kind for that matter. During a Buell employee/engineer movie night, Abe made the first Quesadilla I ever had. I found the notification of this thread while at my favorite lunchtime Mexican restaurant in New Bern, where my go to is always a Chicken Quesadilla. I now return you - unharmed - to your normal thread... | ||
| Rick_a |
People tend to ignore my loud pipes...and horn for that matter. A lot of people rev out their engines instead of using a horn with mixed success. My main problem with electric bike is that they'd have to be as good or better than their internal combustion counterparts and offer a similar value. I've been hearing about how the I.C.E. days are numbered for many years now. I see no sign of that, yet. | ||
| Blake |
Yeah, it took multiple large external combustion engines to draw significant world attention the latest Tesla. It will happen though, sooner or later. Recharging on the road is one current hurdle. It'll be a good thing. In a hundred years, it may be difficult to find a petroleum filling station. | ||
| Jaimec |
My Zero is my "Everyday bike" because I rarely do over 100 miles in a day. My round trip commute is 34 miles (all highway) and the range is more than adequate to allow me to ride back and forth to work (using the HOV lane since I'm on two wheels), go out for a lunchtime ride, and (if the weather is really nice) take the scenic route home. Once home, I plug it in the garage and it's ready to go the next morning. Even my weekend jaunts are usually within 100 miles, plus you can't beat it for the REALLY short rides (like to get some last minute groceries) because you don't have to worry about warming it up, or worrying about the engine running long enough to avoid exhaust system corrosion. Electrics are a long way from being the ONLY motorcycle most people would want to own... but realistically they are the best SECOND bike anyone could own. They may be expensive to initially purchase, but in the long run they are a lot cheaper to operate. Even better for me, since the electricity I use in the summer is 100% provided by the solar panels on my roof. In the winter I run out the electricity I have stored in "the bank" and pay a nominal charge but it's still a lot cheaper than it used to be. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Riding around on a silent motorcycle is nuts. Again, no one is advocating to rely on loud pipes to be the first line of "defense," but anything to make the cagers aware of our presence is GOOD. Noise also has the advantage of NOT being reliant of line of sight. Defensive riding, proper attire and a bike that makes some noise (in that order) is the best combo to keep you alive. I don't care how well you know the roads/danger spots and how defensive you ride, you are not in full control and there is an element of randomness, risk & chance whenever you go for a ride. IMHO, noise can help mitigate the risk. JamieC got nailed on his eBike. Perhaps if he was riding a bike with an exhaust note, the offending car might have not run into him. Of course no one can say for sure, but riding around in stealth mode certainly didn't help the situation. | ||
| Jaimec |
Fresno: THere is no way an exhaust note would've made any difference. This was at night. My headlight was on. I had on a reflective vest. The bike was bright yellow and I had a fluorescent yellow helmet on. This jackass was just flat out BLIND. They give licenses to deaf people but this wanker somehow managed to get one while being blind as a bat. This knucklehead just saw a gas station and there could've been a marching band and it wouldn't've made a difference; he would've plowed right into them as well. Before I got into motorcycles, I rode a bicycle for decades in our typical traffic and never had a problem because I learned to watch for the other guy and anticipate what he/she was going to do before they did it. This clown caught me unaware because he was driving and looking straight ahead, and at the intersection the only way he could've turned was RIGHT. He saw the gas station on his left and just swerved without looking at anything else. | ||
| Hootowl |
I hate chicken quesadillas. They’re the reason I gained 30 pounds.  | ||
| Jaimec |
Sound is omindirectional, by the way. Just because you hear something doesn't mean you know where it is. Next time you're in traffic and hear a siren, see if you can spot it immediately. You can't. In fact, I wonder how many rear end accidents happened because the driver was so busy looking around for the source of the noise that he plowed right into the vehicle in front of him. Exhaust sound is directed towards the rear of the bike. When approaching another vehicle, you will be seen LONG before you are heard. When approaching from behind, you will be heard when you are right next to the vehicle, or passing it. The only way the vehicle in front will hear you is if the sound has reflected off of something behind it, and then the source of the sound gets obscured and you become like that siren. Using a loud exhaust as a "safety device" gets you nowhere other than pissing off the non-riding public who, incidentally, outnumbers us politically and financially. It is a losing battle. Loud pipes cost rights. New York City is very motorcycle-hostile because they assume everybody riding a bike is going to make noise revving their engines to hear the sound reverbing off the buildings. The public doesn't "see" us lawful riders; they judge us all on the assholes with loud pipes, or running around like maniacs shutting down the highways to go stunting. Despite Federal Law, NYC will ticket a motorcyclist in an HOV lane because they just flat out don't like them. Someone finally fought them on the ticket and won, so now NYC says their HOV lanes aren't REALLY "HOV Lanes," they're "3+" lanes and therefore aren't covered. That's just bullshit and they're leaving themselves open for another judgment if/when they ticket the wrong person. https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freewaymgmt/hovguidance/c hapter3.htm | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Your ears are incredibly good at figuring out where sounds are coming from, so sound maybe omni-directional but humans can usually figure out where it's coming from. And if someone can't identify exactly where it's coming from, they are put on alert that there's a motorcycle nearby (just like you know from hearing a siren that there is an emergency vehicle is close.) Typically, cagers will act appropriately as most do not consciously want to kill us. I know when I am driving and hear a bike the first thing I do is figure out where it is for the rider's protection. I am guessing (hoping) most drivers do this as well. Of course it doesn't work in all circumstances, but if it slightly stacks the deck a bit more in my favor, I am going to take advantage. I really like the eBike idea, but I feel it's more dangerous riding around silently (relatively). | ||
| Ratbuell |
It doesn’t work in all situations. Not all drivers understand “motorcycle”. Most don’t, actually. Just like I don’t understand quantum physics, most peoples brains don’t process what a motorcycle really is. Ever buy a car, and once you do you see the same car all the time? Same thing. We see what we know, and we don’t see what we don’t understand. Cagers don’t see bikes. Period. It’s up to US to pay attention, and it can be done for hundreds of thousands of miles without pissing off the neighbors or behaving like a dick. Noise is NOT omnidirectional, by the way. Bass frequencies are, but anything above about 200Hz is directional. What you hear of an exhaust is a REFLECTION of the source - off a building, off a canyon wall, off the side of a semi trailer. You only hear the SOURCE when you’re behind it. But...loud pipes are the go-to cop-out for lazy riders who don’t want to pay attention, and want to put the responsibility on someone else’s shoulders. Lots of cagers don’t see me. But - *I* see *THEM*, and I have yet to have a panic situation involving another driver. Ever. Because I see it coming and avoid it before it goes critical. | ||
| Aesquire |
There is little directional hearing ability in a car with the Windows up. If you aimed your pipes forward, then you'd get some sound warning for cars ahead of you, otherwise it's echoes with WRONG direction indication, until to are next to ( with startle reactions danger increase ) or ahead of the car. Then you just annoy, not warn. Loud pipes save lives is a myth. There IS some justification for fearing silent vehicles as a pedestrian! In Europe they are experimenting with chimes or music player by electric cars. Results aren't all in yet. My Dad loves to sneak up on me in the driveway in his Prius.  I've ranted before, and will keep evangelizing, YOU ARE INVISIBLE! Because motorcycles don't exist in many, even most, people's universes. This is actual research backed, not mythology. All those "I never saw him" excuses when you damn well SAW them look right at you are real. They didn't see you. The image was on their retina, but the brain never processed it into "motorcycle" or even another human being. The best example I have for the phenomenon is it's reverse. Ever buy a car and suddenly you see every one of that brand of model, when yesterday traffic was just anonymous cars? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Yes, we are in complete agreement there. "Loud pipes save lives" is a misnomer. It more like "Loud pipes can help out in the right circumstances." One would be crazy and stupid to think a loud motorcycle is the end all, be all for keeping your ass safe out there.
Consider yourself extremely lucky. What would you have done differently than JamieC did on his eBike? You have hear the details. I don't care how safe you are a rider, whenever you are around cars, shit happens.
Exactly. This is acknowledging there IS an issue with silent vehicles. I don't see much of a difference btw a pedestrian and a motorcycle in this analogy. Both are at the mercy of cars...what are the pedestrians used to hearing? Exhaust notes or at least the mechanical noises of an ICE.
We have all had that happen. A good reason to be activating another sense (ie, their ears) to get them to WAKE UP. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Seeing a car is one thing, identifying the make/brand is completely different. In your analogy, you see the car in so much as it is another vehicle on the road to not run into, but you don't identify the make/brand until you purchase one yourself. I see your point, but for the sake of driving you are seeing that car before you purchase your own. You are paying MORE attention to it after your purchase the same car. Cagers can identify motorcyles on the road, without being a motorcyclist. Of course, they won't know if it's a Buell, Kawasaki or HD--but they can identify a motorcycle. The problems start with the size differences between a car and motorcycle. It DOES throw off the perception of cagers and one of the main reasons they can "See" you and still pull out. A bike going significantly faster than the expected speed only compounds this phenomenon. Also, at night our single headlight or dual beams (spaced close together) can be very misleading to cagers as well. They are thinking it's a car far away, when in reality it's an approaching motorcycle that's right on top of them. I avoid riding at night. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Cagers can identify motorcyles on the road, without being a motorcyclist. Can...but usually don't. Because they don't know what it IS. It isn't part of their usual input set. It becomes part of the background "visual noise", not an active piece of transportation that has a human being sitting on it. I'm guessing you are speaking of JamieC's nighttime event noted above, where the moron would have driven through a marching band - if I'm referring to the correct post, his input or lack thereof would have had no difference whatsoever. The only thing that would have changed it would be if Jamie himself had time to find an exit. Sometimes...accidents simply happen, and no amount of preparation would have changed it. Even Jamie acknowledges it. As for the father-in-law "not noticing"...well, that's where OUR job comes in. I can see hands going for turn signals, or changing position on steering wheels, or a quick glance into a mirror (where I know I'm not visible because I'm mid-pass), and that's where *I* take action and hit the horn, twist the throttle, change lanes, or stab the brakes if there's nobody behind me. Situational awareness isn't just "exterior" stuff, you have to know what the morons are about to do. I haven't been lucky. I've been vigilant. There is a difference. Noise, bright colors, whatever - they all still require that "other person" to pay attention, to see/hear, and to react properly. I don't leave that to chance. I take responsibility for my own safety. | ||
| Aesquire |
You see cars. They see cars. I'm talking about the REVERSE phenomenon, where you buy a Toyota, and suddenly see ALL toyotas, as a brand, where before they were "just cars". They don't see motorcycles. Often don't see bicycles. But mostly you are invisible. Cagers Do Not identify bikes on the road as objects AT ALL. Never mind brands. You just don't register. YOU see bikes, and cars, and pedestrians and foxes, etc. All those things are part of your mental universe. I often argue that riders are safer drivers, because we understand traction & speed, but mostly because we SEE more. ( it's rude to tell a cager he's stupidly blind. True, but not how you win friends and arguments ) I also argue that glider pilots are better than spam can pilots. Sail boat guys have a similar attitude. Those of us In the wind - In The Moment, just see more than folk in a box looking through glass. Often they are detached like playing a video game, separate from the world, not in it. The silent vehicle problem is real. A Zero isn't in the pedestrian role, it's in the car role. But I get your point. Yes, some noise is not a bad thing. In fact, I recently spent November driving my Mother daily to the hospital where Father was in & out for a health crisis. Driving Dad's Prius. They complained I kept rolling down my window, (cold outside) to hear traffic. Especially in the giant parking garage, I wanted more sensory input, and, yes, I avoided collisions by hearing them first. Shift change is chaos and impatient, sleep & coffee deprived doctors and nurses aren't paying attention. So, yes, I agree, sometimes being loud is good. Myths often have a grain of truth. Personally I took off my Wileyco Ti muffler because the noise was fatigue causing, and the hood was quiet. I've moved, and this season will go back to loud to try and alert deer. I'm in the country now and others are noisy, the quad racers, the Hog rider down the street, and farm equipment. No social pressure to be quiet. | ||
| Crusty |
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| Ratbuell |
Don't go loud to alert deer. TRUST ME. Deer are panic animals. They're better off standing still, and watching. Try this - drive your car up on some deer. Do nothing but honk the horn. Watch (and cover those brakes). Let 'em stand still. Again - TRUST ME. Scattering deer are unpredictable deer...and it HURTS when you cut them in half with an S2 at 70mph. DAMHIK. | ||
| 86129squids |
I'm a damn hick, but I trust what you know. Thanks for living through it, and all the previous experiences. Joe, shouldn't you audition for the next Terminator movie, or just that Allstate guy? Dang. | ||
| Blake |
In the realm of motorcycle noise relative to drivers inside cars or trucks, is an e-bike any less noticeable than a conventional motorcycle with its stock muffler? I'd say not much if any. Now add radio or music to the car/truck, or a hands-free telephone conversation... Shape factor, slim vertical form versus wide horizontal box form, reportedly explains cycle-blindness among most drivers. Like the video that Court shared illustrates so well; if you're not looking for it, chances are you wont see it. The guy who pulled out in front of me, turning left/east from the north side grocery store parking lot on a drizzly Autumn evening in downtown Girard, PA, saw the eastbound state patrol car behind me, but never saw me or the CB450 until I was cartwheeling over the front of his hood. A slimy street and a panic stop don't go well together. Lesson learned. Vigilance, vigilance, vigilance, and NEVER assume you're seen, but rather are invisible to traffic. On the bright side, I walked away with nary a scrape; the CB450 was Dad's and he'd fitted it with a full size windshield, giant white saddlebags, crash-bars/highway-pegs, a tall sissy bar, and buckhorn handlebars. The wreck busted up the windshield and one of the absolutely horrid looking bulbous white saddlebags, bent the buckhorn style handlebars, scraped and bent the crash bars, and tore up the padded sissy bar. I tossed them all and had the forks straightened and stock bars installed, resulting in a proper naked motorcycle. What a difference that made. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I think this is absolutely true. I posted something to that effect on a local neighborhood posting website when the subject turned to reckless teenage driving. The reaction by the cagers was predictable. When riding our lives depend on honing sensory input and doing it while manipulating both hands and feet in concert with one another. Riding a bike proficiently, at speed on a twisty road is a wonderful thing. Speaking about sensory input, it makes sense to me to attempt to engage the "blind" cagers with some auditory stimulation. If they don't see you perhaps the rumble of a V-twin might get them to wake the hell up! | ||
| Blake |
Unlikely. And what is so special about the noise of a V-twin? |
