| Author | Message | ||
     Bluzm2 |
Looking for input on must have tooling for a home shop mill. I am the happy new owner of a well cared for Enco 45 mill. It's about as big as you can get before jumping to a full sized Bridgeport type knee mill. Square post (not round), X-Y DRO (soon to have Z installed), R8 spindle, etc. Getting the mill is only the start, you have to have tooling in order for it to do anything.. I'm going to be doing a lot of aluminum facing so a indexable face mill seems to be the hot set up for that. I also need to do some square tube notching (on the 1" side of a 1x2" 16g tube), with a 1 to 1 1/4" radius. What's best for the fish mouth, fly sutter, hole saw, or something else? Obviously need center finders, step clamps, dial indicators and holders, R8 collets and maybe end mill holders and the like too. Then there's the question of milling cutters. Tin coated HSS is probably where I'll start but the question is what sizes and what style? For general use is a 43 or 4 flute more desirable than a 2 flute? What are the most commonly used sizes to have on hand? Keep in mind cost is a factor. What do others use for sources and suppliers? Thanks for any educated input! Brad PS, I know there is a home shop thread somewhere but I couldn't seem to find it... | ||
| Loose1 |
For facing a simple single pointed fly cutter will do the job. It can get real expensive fast, for a home shop, with an inserted face mill. On cutting fish mouths depending how precise you need it to be a hole saw works good. If you need something nicer you could hit it with a boring head afterwards. I wouldn't trying it with a fly cutter. You wouldn't have any control over the diameter of the cut. On end mills you most likely wont need anything much over half inch with a small mill. Use 4 flutes on steels and 2-3 flutes on alu. Pick up 2 of each 1/8-1/2" in 2, 4 flute and also some alu and steel roughers in 1/2 inch. For home shop use and when learning I wouldn't spend the extra money for coatings. Your going to burn up some cutters in steel until you get your speeds and feeds figured out. Since MSC bought Enco last year it's harder to find home shop priced cutters. I would start with something like this until you find out what your going to use the most of. http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00233817 Machining is expensive. I have north of 10g invested in my home shop. Some of my stuff is good quality things and others are cheep. It all depends on how much I'm going to use it. Here's a good fourm for home shops. http://hobby-machinist.com/ If you would like maybe this summer we could get together and I can show you some tips and tricks. Matt | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Matt, I was SO hoping you would chime in, thanks tons. You've confirmed much of what I've been considering. I can get a 3" insert face mill and inserts for a bit south of $160 or so with the correct inserts for Alu. I also think I'll pick up a fly cutter. I'd not considered a boring head but that really makes sense. I will follow your advice on the cutters. I'd not even considered roughing cutters. Good call. Let the chips fly where they may! Better get the credit card warmed up.. Thanks for the info Matt, really appreciated. Brad | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Also, I think now that I can hold the stock rigidly a hole saw will work. I even have the correct size! | ||
| Greg_e |
I bet the holesaw will still chatter, but might be good enough. | ||
| Loose1 |
No problem Brad. If you have any questions just let me know. A lot of tubing notchers use hole saws. Low rpm and cutting oil will give you a nice cut. Much easier than the 304SS I've been cutting at work. Don't forget, you'll need a vise too. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Brad - I have a few machines, started small with a bench-top mill and lathe(Sherline). Now I have a Grizzly(Chinese) knee mill and a 4 axis Haas VF-3 CNC that I do HD/Buell headwork on. Matt has good info.. I really have a hard time even dealing with HSS anymore tho. Just too easy to burn up. If you need to stay cheap, Chinese carbides aren't too bad... but carbide is the way to go IMO. A cheap carbide is much better than HSS anyday. Also look at Harbor Freight's diamond cutters. I have a few sets that make tough jobs a lot easier. I also have a couple of Foredom motors with flex-cable for manual carbide cutting. That's what I use to carve the heads, then sandrolls and 3M spiral polishing discs. Z | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Matt, I've got a vice, forgot to mention that. Z, You are also echoing what I've found during my interwebs digging. Carbide is the way to go. Walk before you run. I'll kill a few HSS before I go to hole hog for the carbides. Need to figure out what I'm doing first.. Was missing around a bit today, got some of the DRO figured out. Centering of ABS measures, practiced a couple bolt hole patterns too. Man, is THAT a neat function! Brad | ||
| Stevel |
Brad, You have just started a VERY expensive, but extraordinarily rewarding hobby. I started my shop more than 50 yrs. ago. In a similar way. I now have 4 lathes, 4 mills, a shaper, 2 band saws and a complete welding facility as well as a huge complement of accessories and tooling. This hobby is very addictive. In many ways worse than drugs. My current capability is greater than many commercial machine shops. Please understand the capability of your equipment and try to avoid tasks that stretch the ability of your tools and machines. Your Enco mill/drill is a very useful machine, but it is just an overgrown drill press not a milling machine. It simply does not have the power or stiffness for all but the lightest milling jobs. Carbide cutters require more stiffness, power and surface speed than HSS to be effective. Your machine possesses none of those attributes. Carbide will quickly fail mounted in your machine. The R8 spindle matches your machine very well and tooling is inexpensive for R8, but R8 has limited tool holding ability. Tool crashes can easily ruin your spindle, so avoid large diameter cutting (more than 2 in.) End mills should not exceed 3/4". Stick to cobalt HSS as much as possible. TIN coated tools have limited value in your machine. Do not use R8 collets. They grip on only one end and don't grip well. Use ER32. They grip across the whole shank and are much better. Use 2 and 3 fluke high helix end mills for aluminum and 4 fluke low helix end mills for steel. Lastly, join the Practical Machinist forum. their database contains answers to most of your questions you will ever want to ask. It is a forum for professionals be respectful and follow the rules. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Thanks for that info Steve. You have a ton more experience here than I - I've been "dabbling" for around 10 years now. I got a Chinese 12" lathe a couple of years ago, not as precise as my Sherline but much stiffer. Just bought the knee mill and the Haas last month. Now at 62 I get to try my hand at machining. Glad to see you recommend the Practical Machinist forum, I joined there several years ago trying to find info on my GE Atomic Hydrogen welder made in 1947.    Z (Message edited by zac4mac on January 30, 2017) | ||
| Tootal |
Speeds and feeds are simple once you know the cutting speeds of material. Stainless is 50 Tool steel is 50 Mild steel is 100 Brass/Bronze is 200 Aluminum is 200 4 X Cutting Speed Divided by Diameter = RPM Get yourself a Machinist Bible If you know what radius you need get a two flute end mill the correct diameter. Drill a pilot hole, as large as you can. Plunge with a two flute end mill. You don't need a pilot hole with a two flute but it's less stress on your machine. If you do use a hole saw, drill a pilot hole first and replace the drill in the hole saw with a dowel pin. This is a lot more steady than a drill bit and will give a much more accurate and cleaner hole. | ||
| Stevel |
Zac, That's a very interesting machine. I have never seen one like that. Hove you tried welding with it? I assume it is AC only. | ||
| Aesquire |
For fish mouths the hole saw works great. Many home built airplane guys use that for welded steel frames. ( 4130 chrome-moly round tubing ) Good advice above. Don't force.... anything. Love Atomic Hydrogen Welders. WW2 era killer app. Obsolete for most folk today, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work as well as it did in 1945. ( it just means it's cheaper & easier with modern rigs, like Tig or Mig ) | ||
| Greg_e |
Bolt holes with overlapping placement will cut big circles. That how I do everything over about half an inch diameter on my little benchtop mill. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Steve - It's like welding with a torch, albeit a 7500 degree torch... The handle make a flame that screams like a harpy and excels at welding large, heavy parts. I found a place in Portland or Seattle making anchor chains that used one of these or the Miller counterpart. Z <edit> I meant to add that the couple of times I've fired it up I made a lot of "art". Small and large pieces of aluminum turned to puddles, steel didn't fare any better. Best result was a pair of railroad spikes(one inch square profile), lap joint at tip end. Looked like a pro did it. (Message edited by zac4mac on January 31, 2017) | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Brad, PM me your address... I'll send ya some presents in the form of various sizes of ticn coated carbide endmills. 4 and 5 flutes, variable pitch geometry. These are all endmills that have accidently found there way home, and have be accumulating over the years on the desk in my office. I've always thought it would be great to have a machine in the garage... but then I'd be disappointed with whatever I got, compared to what I use at work.... https://goo.gl/photos/aSpFFTz22qzLGitR7 It's equipped with a laser tool presetting, 3D renishaw probe.And will hold .0001 all day long(heidenhain micron level glass scales and Fanuc high accuracy package). The most impressive machine I've ever run. We liked it so much, we bought a 2nd one 9 months later. So yeah, having a Bridgeport in my garage would be a disappointment. Besides, do I want to come home and do what I've been doing all day? | ||
| Stevel |
Steve M. I can understand where you're coming from on not wanting to play at what you do all day, but it is also wrong to compare a Bp with a top of the line CNC machining center. The application is totally different. These machining centers live in a production environment making hundreds if not thousands of the same parts. These machines have little value and too high of a cost to be used in a job or model shop, where the total run is one or two each. It is in this environment manual machines still reign king. There are very few jobs that these CNC machines do that can't be reproduced on a manual with the correct accessories and tooling. I bought a new Bp clone with 3 axis power feeds and rapids factory equipped with all the bells and whistles including 3 axis DRO and it is my go to vertical for 90% of my milling tasks. It is of course a bit light being an R8 machine, but I have other mills for the heavier stuff, like my late model 40 taper Cincinnati Milacron Toolmaster. Now that's not to say that I couldn't use a 5 axis NC machine once in a year or so, but who could afford that. I think Bps and their clones are the hobby mills of choice. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Steve M, I don't know what the heck I was thinking. I should have pinged you straight away. My little toy would very quickly bore you to death. I'm staying away from even a small CNC because I don't want to get sucked down that hole. I have enough time black holes the way it is.. I don't know what happened, I put up a post last night but for some reason it's not here. I'll try again when I get home.. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Greg, Thanks for the info. Great idea on the pilot hole. I'm going to try that for sure. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Another try. Here's a shot of the mill. Stevel, I somewhat agree about your assessment, however this one is a LOT more rigid and solid than the next step down. It clocks in around 830 lb or so. It has a dovetailed column, not round. It holds tram pretty well especially since it's on wheels.. I really need to get it a permanent location in the shop but space constraints make that impossible right now. Later this year I will be doing a addition to the garage and it will have a permanent spot. Sorry for the fuzzy pic, I was in a hurry..  | ||
| Steve_mackay |
I meant ABSOLUTELY nothing against the hobby machinist. It's just not for -me- . See, It's much like bikes... A good analogy would be riding an 1190 VS a HD Shovelhead. The shovelhead, while well maintained will still get you from point A to point B, and will be enjoyable. But the 1190 will do it faster, with less gas, and FAR FAR FAR more finesse. The fact is, I'm spoiled. I run a machine that lists for nearly $500K. The CAD/CAM software I use at work was nearly $30K alone.I've also been doing this a very long time. I've been machining for 33 years. Started out in a small automotive machine shop a block from where I live. Started running CNCs about 1990. I've been using the same Cad/Cam software since April of 1997. Steve L. I do VERY little production work. I'm in tool & die. I've seen ONE production job in the 7 years I've been at my current job. And that was 60 pieces of aircraft carrier runway lights. The stuff I do, cannot really be effectively done on manual machinery, even with the best of tools and machinery. You'd have to have an index table, on top of a sine plate. Most of what I do is one piece at a time. Very complex parts. The video I posted above is the 5 axis trunion machine I run. It's the smallest machine we have. The largest, well, we just finished some parts for the D.O.D. that came in at about 90 tons. Over 30 tons of material came off of those parts. I can't really post a pic of those parts, but to give you an idea of the size of the machine.......... BIG machine  Brad, I don't blame you for not wanting to jump in to CNC. Try reading the manuals on THIS:  Brad, that looks like an OUTSTANDING machine. Looks rigid, even compared to some of the cheap bridgeport clones. You've gonna have fun with that. It can be VERY rewarding as well. I spent about 6-7 years doing tool design work, then when I switched employers, went back to the shop floor. Still do a bit of design work, mostly fixtures. Machining, while harder on the body, is far more rewarding than staring at the computer all day. (Message edited by Steve_Mackay on January 31, 2017) | ||
| S1owner |
Brad Thats awesome. I really want a small mill. Smaller then that even. But here is the biggest issue I see as I have been in your garage Where are you going to put it? | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Ken, Exactly! Hence the upcoming new workshop | ||
| S1owner |
Cool Let me know if you need some help I will lend a hand building or moving which ever you need | ||
| Damnut |
We just bought a cool mill that was relatively affordable at my work. I was tasked to pick one out and I went with a Precision Matthews 932M w/dro, it was ~4K with all the accessories. I thought it was a better machine than a Grizzly, more bang for your buck. Their customer service is awesome and when you call you will usually talk to the owner, Matt. Check them out. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-932M.html I was using it yesterday for some R&D projects and to style up my kid's PWD car.  | ||
| Nuts4mc |
home/hobby size equipment: https://littlemachineshop.com/ | ||
| Tootal |
I've been making parts for a local micro brewery on my 1933 Sears Metalcraft lathe. This old antique is still pretty accurate! The motor on my South Bend is toast so I ordered a new one today. Can't wait to get it going since the Sears just takes so long to set up. Still has a "lantern" tool post and I have multiple tool changes to make. I did get a quick change tool post for the South Bend. My Mill is running well though. I had to rebuild the spindle but it's nice a quiet now. It's an old Rockwell with a 2' table. Not quite what I'm used to but it's fun to see if you can still make something using ancient history to do it with! Speaking of ancient history, it's probably not any older than I am!  | ||
| S1owner |
Heres my little craftsman It had a watch makers quick change on it but I could not spend 200 plus per tool! Sold it for what I paid fo the whole lathe But I want a small mill!!!  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Man, looks like there are a lot of closet machinist's out there! Love it! | ||
| S1owner |
It is so handy to have. Made pegs for my sons bike Turned down 1" bar end mirrors to fit 7/8" bars And a few other odds and ends |
