| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
If Obamacare does get repealed, do you think Health Insurance rates will go back to what they were before it was enacted? Do you really want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think if things go as planned and true competition ensues (for your medical coverage dollar)...that competition will force pricing and rates to drop. That's the theory, anyway. | ||
| Aesquire |
The bridge was voted on by one Party. Follow the money. Lots of bribes involved. The fix actually should reduce rates but it has to be voted on. Simply allowing you to buy Kaiser or other out of state insurance would lower rates. But will it save YOU money? Depending on how bad the replacement bills are written. Will Donald give a billion dollars of your money to his wife's college buddy after he gets a half million buck bribe to create a broken website.... like Barry did? The sarcastic cynic in me gives it 50/50. | ||
| Macbuell |
they have to figure out the high risk pool and how to pay for it for any of this to work. Thets' the whole issue. You want to let everyone get insurance but right now the sick and high risk are enrolling and driving up the costs for everyone else and those higher costs are stopping healthy people from signing up. It becomes a really viscous cycle. The only real fix that will help everyone is to get the costs of medical care down. And that would require not only reduction that actual costs of the medical care but also the liability costs that medical providers have to cover. So you have to have tort reform in there. So unless we lower medical costs and lower liability costs via tort reform, I don't know how you fix this problem. And good luck getting a bunch of lawyers to stick it to a bunch of lawyers. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't know about costs, i don't see them going anything but up given we have more and more treatment options for more and more things for longer and longer lifespans. But I do think you will get a lot more flexibility under an ACA repair. And probably less cost shifting. Both of which should let you get a plan better suited to you and therefore more economical. Unless you are one of the real medical train wrecks... their costs will go way up for sure. Which makes me sad, but it is what it is and all the alternatives make me sad too. The free market will always tune options and manage costs better. It's just that these costs aren't going down unless we stay sicker or die sooner. | ||
| Aesquire |
Keep in mind one reason health insurance is expensive is mandatory coverage. That's a mixed bag of wrong. I certainly want to be covered for car accidents, other trauma, make your own list. But aromatherapy? Acupuncture? When the costs are hidden by insurance they can be crazy high. It's $600 for me to talk to a nurse. I pay $25 out of pocket. Most people don't read the bill past the bottom line. I don't know how much they charge to put warm rocks on my back while burning stinky candles. I'd expect to pay a few hundred bucks for a spa day. Make that mandatory coverage and it's thousands. Of course under Obamacare I get free prenatal vitamins. I pay for that coverage. I don't see using it. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
I heard Paul Ryan speculate that it might actually be cheaper to just cover the catastrophic costs of the percentage of the uninsured straight out of the budget(Medicare Medicaid dollars?) rather than mandate and manage the monster the ACA created. I always wondered why only the insurers and the billing agents actually know what something costs. Why not require published consumer pricing? Clinics and hospitals with better outcomes, swankier rooms, or better marketing could probably justify a higher price tag to their customers. I know a burger at Applebees costs more than a Big Mac. Both work for lunch, but I get to chose where I eat. I realize health care is not laundry detergent, but I always thought costs should be up front, like a veterinarian does. | ||
| Sifo |
Econ 101... You are selling widgets. A law has just been passed that every citizen must purchase a widget every year. What happens to the price of a widget? | ||
| Cyclonedon |
The real problem is that you will still be dealing wit insurance companies and they are all about making money! Our country needs a National Healthcare system and eliminate insurance companies all together! | ||
| 04xl1200c |
Cyclonedon are you suggesting that the world needs to do away with all money making companies that are associated with health care so the costs go down? Isn't that a form of communism/socialism that has been proven many times to be the worse form of doing anything? | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
The maximum fine for not having health insurance is about the same as a one-month premium for my healthy family of four. We dropped our health insurance in January. At this point, IDGAF what they do--I don't expect rates to come down to reasonable levels and I don't expect universal healthcare either. So, we'll just put some money aside each month into a separate account for medical expenses, and hope that none of us have to go to the emergency room. | ||
| Aesquire |
.....might actually be cheaper to just cover the catastrophic costs of the percentage of the uninsured straight out of the budget(Medicare Medicaid dollars?) rather than mandate and manage the monster the ACA created. It would be, by an order of magnitude. In fact, in practice every citizen of the U.S. is covered, at least potentially, by Medicare & Medicaid. You get in a car wreck, they haul you to the hospital, and you get care. You then get charged for it, but in the real world those bills get......absorbed. One reason for high prices. Willing to bet that's small change compared to the doctor's cost in lawsuit insurance. But in any event, Obamacare is doing what it's supposed to do. ( not what they lied to you it was to do ) It made insurance more expensive. It pushed more people to the brink. It is intended to wreck the system so that people will cry out for a strong man to save them and the Holy State to take over the entire system. Cloward-Piven revolution by destruction of the system from within. There's a reason Barry's ego had him groove on the name "Obamacare". Listen to any of his speeches. It's all about him. This was his masterpiece of domestic Revolution in the Alinsky Way. It's supposed to fail. So people who are fooled by the rhetoric will cry out....... they are all about making money! and demand "Government Health care"...... the same health care that the VA provides. If they live long enough to get treated. What? you thought you'd get the same care that a Senator gets? That's a laugh. The nice hospital I just had a major operation at makes a profit. The nurses get paid. My doctor gets paid. I get decent care, and I get to go home. Hell, I even believe I can ride again. I work hard to get that insurance, and pay for it. ( what? you thought work pays for that? Sucker. It's all out of your paycheck. That it says different is an accounting trick. ) Now if you want your take home pay to be half what it is now, or less, then by all means call for govt. health insurance. It will cost much more, because you have to pay many more people to do the paperwork, it won't work as well, because there are more people to tell you you can't have it, and when you do get approved for treatment, you won't have the best doctor in town fixing your spine, because he moved to an office where he could make more money, because the rich people will pay for him. Where the problem with costs really kicks in no matter who you think is paying for it, ( and it's you, it's always you ) is with chronic illnesses like cancer and getting old. ( both have better results here than elsewhere. We just haven't figured out the payment system yet ) And remember, in Japan they finally have functional man amplification machines so a slender fellow or girl can lift 250 pounds with one arm. Is this a top secret Japanese Defense force Mecha prototype? No. It's used in old folks homes to reduce the number of people you need to change bedding. Think on that one, as we get older. | ||
| Blake |
John, I don't care about the pricing as much as I do getting the jack boot of govt off my neck coercing me to purchase a product I don't want or need. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I have been successful avoiding the stupid insurance coverage scam -. I'm a 6 year Navy vet and get all my medical care from the VA. Cheyenne's VA center is pretty big, pretty old and staffed by veterans. I always feel good after a visit up there. I do wish they had Dental... I've only got 10 1/2 teeth left..... Wife is covered by Medicaid so we are good with the Feds. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
Healthcare insurance does absolutely nothing to help maintain your health! It is only a means for a third party (a insurance company) to make money off the sick and unhealthy people to pay their doctor and hospital bills! Obama care was just a form of insurance that allowed the insurance industry to make a killing off us! We need a government health care system to help care for the sick! If Canada and other countries can do it, I think America can also! I still have faith in the USA! | ||
| Aesquire |
I think you have made several wrong assumptions. You are correct that Obamacare was set up so that the insurance companies that bribed Obama with millions got a great deal. ( companies that didn't bribe Obama are mostly gone now, absorbed by those that did ) You're wrong that insurance companies don't care if you are healthy. There's a reason they have all those programs to promote good health. Your good health makes them more profit. Do you understand what insurance is? They're bookies. You bet them you will get sick. They bet you won't. They calculate the odds & charge you more than the point spread. ( you do understand how bookies & casinos work, right? ) It's that simple. Or you can put aside from your pay a pile of money to pay the doctor. They usually give a discount for not having to do all the bookie paperwork. Govt health insurance takes away the profit motive to improve. Substitutes budget limits. And cranks the paperwork to twelve. ( it's what bureaucracy does ) So if you love the British model, pray you get treated before they run out of budget or doctor time. If they have..... you lose. I'd be dead if I lived in England. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Insurance does two things... it lets the insurance company make money (average across all customers), true, but it also lets individuals manage costs by paying a fixed amount up front in return for particular guarantees for coverage. In other words, it's a bet, but unlike betting on the ponies to make a profit, it's betting on your health to avoid a loss. So basically, you are paying $300 a month to the insurance company, betting them that you will get sick and need $500,000 in medical treatment. If you "loose" the bet and stay healthy, you are out $300, and they are out nothing. If you "win" the bet, they have to pay your $500,000 in medical bills (well, minus a few thousand in deductibles, as stipulated in the contract for the bet up front). If you *have* to make the bet every month, and there is only one bookie that you have to make the bet with, and they get to set the odds, how much do you think the bookie will stack the odds in their favor? If you walk into a room full of bookies, and you get to choose who you want to bet with, do you think you will be likely to get better or worse odds? Plus, because different people have different needs and have different risk tolerances, you might want to make different bets. I go to a doctor as a last resort. If I drive my dirtbike into a tree, and my foot hurts, and I can still mostly hobble around, I'll let it go for a week or so and see if it is getting better. If so, meh, let it go. If not, then it's time for an X-Ray. Somebody else might run to the doctor for a full suite of reassurances (uh, I mean medical tests and examinations) that they are OK. Both are fine, but both will have predictable different cost implications, and should be different bets with different odds. And when I buy clothes, I would much rather go to a walmart or a Kohls and get in and out cheap and quick and without much style or drama. I just wear clothes, I don't use them to express an identity. Others want to go to the high end mall store and have expert fawn over them and advise them and get the latest and greatest to express their individual identity and flair. Again, no problem with either approach. But should I have to pay their 300% premium over the cheaper approach? Or be forced myself to go through that when I just want a pair of levis and a carhart pocket T? You can just lump these into one big bucket, but that means people don't have much choice, and it means your bookie and your doctors will have no pressure to control costs at all. You can claim that careful oversight and transparency would fix this, but you would be hard pressed to show any evidence this can be done. Look no further than your social security return on investment, and your experience at your local DMV, to understand what socialized care costs and services would quickly degrade too without competitive markets and consumer choice. I'm not one claiming there isn't a problem, but I worry about single payer / socialized medicine being even more of a problem. I think a robust competitive market and a lot of consumer choice have to be a part of it. | ||
| Glitch |
Bill, you ought to teach | ||
| Crusty |
Nice analogy, Bill. Now, how about if all the bookies in that room got together before you walk in and decide, here; I'll set my odds .1 point lower in this instance, and you set your odds .1 lower in that instance? And how about if we build an internal bureaucracy that makes the Federal Government look streamlined? We can pass the costs on to the suckers who take our odds and we'll still be rolling in the dough? It's never cut and dry; nor is it ever simple. I admit to being biased. I got royally screwed by an Insurance company, as did my father. I personally would love to see all the insurance companies outlawed. But that will never happen. They have too much power. (Message edited by Crusty on February 03, 2017) | ||
| Tootal |
In the Commerce Clause it is originally intended to give the Federal Government the ability to regulate commerce. If you look up the word regulate in a 1700's dictionary the word means to keep regular or to keep flowing. It was to allow businesses to cross state lines. However insurance companies seem to be exempt from this clause. WHY? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I agree that what you describe is also a problem Crusty. We unfortunately haven't really seen free and fair market health care for a LONG time. Both sides have a lot of gaming of the current system. People under-buy coverage until they know they will spend less than they cost. And companies are quick to try and find ways not to pay or drop people who are expensive. I'm a capitalist, but I think there should be laws that keep the free and fair market free and fair. Though I would lean more towards rules requiring transparency instead of controlling behavior. Heck, Amazon with their platform for product by product real consumer reviews has probably done more for consumer rights and product quality than the FTC and Consumer Reports could ever have dreamed. At least by volume. And it's just transparency. Informed consumers fix %(*# FAST. | ||
| Aesquire |
Reep, thanks for expanding & clarifying my bookie explanation. You get it. | ||
| Sifo |
I spent 5 years working for a life and health insurance company. I remember having discussions about pricing with our VP. Very nice guy. Willing to share experience and knowledge with anybody willing to talk. I also spent a lot of time working with our actuarials. That's the guys/gals doing the math to determine, among other things, pricing. I'm 100% convinced that there was no collusion going on between our company and others. Outlawing insurance companies is just as bad as forcing people to purchase their products. Why do people always seem to think that more laws will somehow make their lives better? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sorry if I am copping your themes Aesquire. This forum helps me shape my thoughts, so a lot gets recycled.  The math is there. Insurance companies make decent money, but no more than grocery stores or colleges or car dealers. Though, apparently, a LOT more than motorcycle manufacturers.  Anyway, if there was a mountain of easy gold for the taking by being in the health insurance business, people would be rushing into it. Instead, it is a painful and complicated business that requires a huge amount of investment and a solid chunk of risk acceptance to make a reasonable return. If you want to be outraged, look at the cash reserves of Apple. There is your example of corporate greed. They have a near monopoly and they are pricing their products based on how much they can get for them, not what they are worth. And not even re-investing the profits... they just sit there. (Though maybe because doing anything with them would trigger some kind of tax train wreck that they have been artfully avoiding). Seriously, if the occupy democrats / 99% crowd wants corporate greed to be outraged about, they should be marching on Cupertino, not Washington. | ||
| Sifo |
BTW, the health and life ins. co. I worked for was getting out of the health ins. business. Too complicated and costly for smaller insurers to deal with. No doubt that the big companies want it that way. No doubt the big companies have lobbyists that work to make it that way. I worked for them in the late '90s and early 2000's. Since then, health insurance has gotten far more complicated and regulated. If you are a surviving company, that's good for you. You now face less competition, and simply raise your prices to cover the expense of the complexity. Even better, now that you are forced by law to purchase their overpriced products. Is there a market for truly affordable health insurance, that covers you if you get really sick, but lets you control your routine health care? Doesn't matter if it's made illegal. | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/02/obamac ares_catastrophic_effect_on_small_business.html |
